the frustration of losing my mind

I think the thing I hate most about cognitive problems is that I can't communicate what I'm thinking properly, and I mean verbally although y'all may notice when my written skills go to hell as well, I think.

But I mean I'm trying to explain something to someone and they are not understanding what I'm talking about and twist the meaning because of it. And then it causes an huge argument. And it triggers me to have an episode an then later I realize this person couldn't undersatnd and it was my fault because I couldn't properly think and get the words out what I was trying to get across. And finally 4 hours later I can explain myself, but then it's too late and I'm accused of "changing my story."

I used to be so good at communicating.... but over the last 6-7 years or so it's slowly going away but now it's really really noticable.

I totally understand where you are coming from. I relate very much and empathize with you. I understand your posts ... please keep posting! x

I'm sorry you are having such difficulty. Glad you posted. Hope it gets better for you.
Gayle

My son could have written this. It's a constant theme in our conversations and a source of frequent arguments. He keeps telling me I'm confused, but I never have these confusing types of conversations with anyone else.

As someone on the other side of it, do you have an suggestions on what helps you as the person listening? Or is there any signs or something that show up when your son is having trouble? I don't want to cause these huge arguments and am starting to feel the best thing I can do is just not talk very much or voice my thoughts.... but I feel that's probably more avoidant than trying to fix the problem....

It's unpleasant for me, because my son gets angry when I misunderstand him. Instead of just saying, "You misunderstood. I didn't mean X; I meant Y," he gets angry. Almost as if I misunderstood for the sole purpose of annoying him.

Then he really gets annoyed if I say something like, "I heard you say 'X,' but I must have misheard." He wants me to say that I didn't hear X. That irritates me, because it's almost like he's asking me to admit to deliberately misunderstanding. If I didn't hear X, but I act as if he said X, then what does that say about me?

The thing is when he gets into one of these tangles, he starts to get more emotional. And then he gets more confused and frustrated and starts making more speech errors.

My son also perseverates. We'll talk it out and agree that there was a miscommunication, but now we've cleared it up and understand what was meant to be said. Right? That can take a long time, but now it's cleared up. Time to move on, right?

No. Then he goes all the way back to the beginning and tries to reconstruct the bit of the conversation where the misunderstanding occurred. He'll say 'you said this and I said that and then what did you say?' He'll try to get the whole thing down. I guess he's trying to find out where things went wrong.

Then when he's worked through it once. He'll start back at the top again. 'You said this and I said that and ...' He'll go through this process up to half a dozen times, and it can take an hour or more. It's painful, but it's like he can't just let it go, minutely dissecting and trying to recall exact words that were used. It makes me wish I tape recorded all of my conversations with him.

The entire process drives me nuts, but it's almost like he has to get it down in a certain way in order to feel comfortable enough to move on.

I don't know if any of that applies to you, faerie_moon. It's why I just dread these communication problems. We had one of these arguments the other night, and after we hung up I turned my phone off. I just knew if I didn't he would be calling or texting all evening rehashing 30 seconds worth of conversation.

For my son, if he could just let it go and move on, he'd do so much better, because I can hear him getting more confused as he talks. His speech will just deteriorate to the point that he's tripping over his words. The words come out in the wrong order.

Thank you so much, costello, this actually is a lot like my experience actually. Except in my case, I am with someone who won't admit that there was a misunderstanding. I can get to the point where I see I was misunderstood, and try to repaire it, but the other person does not believe in misunderstandings or something, and instead says I'm changing my story to make "myself look better".... which is not true. I'm trying to clear up a misunderstanding.

I also become very emotional and more confused and frustrated. It's very triggering for me to be called a lier, manipulator, or say I'm doing things for attention. I can't stand it because those things are all the things my dad accused me of and made me feel worthless, that I didn't matter, that my truth was of no value. So, very long arguments over misunderstood information become a huge issue....

I have these patterns too. I'll try to explain. It's like I have these racing looping thoughts. They don't stop or go away. It can take days and soemtimes weeks for them to stop. In fact, I still have looping thoughts from the bad time that brought me to PC in 2011, so basically the more emotional the situation the harder it is to recover. Replaying it over, and over, and over. They are very emotionally fuled and I get high anxiety and panic attacks so I have to replay the whole thing over and over.

Yes, this is very much like it. Very much. I can't move on until I know it's over and it's not coming back, and it's like if I could just go back in time so many minutes/hours/days and stop myself from making that error, that would fix it.

What's worse is you want to move on but you can't. You try to stop thinking about it but you can't. It's just this oppressive, never ending thought cycle and you can't shake it.

All the way up until I was 26 I had them that were still plaguing me from high school and I couldn't sleep because of them. Over and over. Because I could never resolve the issues with those people it took me that long to get away from it.

That obsessive re-exploration of painful events is something that still plagues me. It used to be really debilitating. Nowadays, the cognitive deficits worry me more, so I empathise with you on that one. Communication is hampered, but memory and being able to listen and string together a short list of points someone is making are extremely difficult for me. I need to ask for one or two points at a time, digest them or make a diary or written note, then move on to the next few points. Sometimes it is so bad I have to ask someone else to do the listening for me, and trust them to put together a detailed action plan for me to follow. This has made formal employment practically impossible for me.

I had a look at your blog, and am glad you are having another go at getting your writing fired up. I understand how you are struggling to put your thoughts together. I hope momentum keeps building, and that your inspiration grows, Faerie Moon.

TS

Thanks. It is so frustrating. So far I can still work but the cognitive issues are the problem that is hardest for me to cope with. I have so many good ideas for my stories I just go through these long periods where I can't make sense of them.

Well, that's nonsense. I'd say that there are tiny misunderstandings between people all the time. Between what one person says and the other person hears is a huge chasm full of all kinds of filters, everything that each of the people brings to the conversation - assumptions, prejudices, hopes, etc. - just interfere in large and small ways. Add to that fatigue, attention, distraction, word choice, etc. I think it's a wonder we communicate at all!

I just assume that I won't always be understood and I won't always understand. All we can do is have goodwill and do our best.

Sorry he or she is saying to to you. We should try to assume the other person is well-intended IMO.



My son has described similar experiences - unable to let go of particular thoughts for long periods of time. Or maybe it's the thoughts that won't let go of him.

With my son, there have been times when he's almost got things settled in his mind in such a way that he can get some peace with it, when I say something - trying to be helpful - that throws it all out of whack again. I really don't understand how the whole thing works. That's just what he's told me.

I don't know what to say. My son has the same issues. I just tell him to try and see it as an opportunity to work with his mind. I tell him to picture it as a stuck gearshift. If he keeps working with it, shifting will get easier over time. Our brains are plastic, and they can change if we work with them. That doesn't make it easy, though.

I think of this as the OCD part of my son's experience. I believe there are some very helpful CBT strategies for OCD. I've never really looked into them closely. I picked up a book on it once, and he started by talking about therapists who were using CBT for OCD inappropriately. I never got very far into the book, so I couldn't give details. Just a heads up in case you decide to find a self-help book on the subject: there may be some controversy on different approaches.

It's interesting because sometimes these thought loops end suddenly and evaporate and I can't remember what they were about. I just remember the intensity and stress that they create.

I like that saying "It's hard to dance with a devil on your back, so shake him off!" Some of these devils have really firm grips. But, still keep trying.

i can really relate to what you experience so know how horrible it can be. when your trying to explain what's going through your mind and it just goes. or you can't explain it in the first place just random words come out and the sentences make no sense. makes me want to not talk as i feel stupid.

Yeah, I get that. Impermanence is something I try to remind myself of a lot. It doesn't always help when things are bad, but sometimes it does. And the more times you experience that bad thing evaporating, the more you can hold in your mind that it's impermanent.

I don't get thought loops, but I know really black moods. Really, really, bad, deep black moods where life doesn't seem worth the effort anymore. They come. And they go. When I'm in the grip of one, sometimes it helps to remember that I've felt this way before and it didn't last. Other times, if it's really bad, it doesn't help at all. Most the time, though, it's worth it to try and bring awareness to impermanence.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you've experienced thought loops evaporating in the past, then when the next one hits, try and remember that it's impermanent. Maybe it will help. Maybe it won't. Nevertheless it's true. It will let go eventually.

About the cognitive issues: I have a theory with my son - maybe it's off-base, but I think the problem underlying the cognitive difficulties is emotions. It's hard to think clearly when you're in a state of emotional turmoil. And then the fact that you're thinking and communicating unclearly adds to the emotions in kind of a vicious cycle.

My son can seem so confused - to the point that he's been mistaken for a drug user or someone who is mentally deficient. Then he'll suddenly say something so insightful. He'll just zero in on the heart of something in such a surprising way. But if I tell him I think it was insightful, he gets mad. He'll say that I must think he's really stupid if I think that statement was insightful.

Thch Nhat Hanh has a meditation I think is relevant. It's called water reflecting.

Thich Nhat Hanh's Audio Meditation - Water Reflecting - Oprah.com

The image of a very still lake accurately reflecting everything around it is very helpful to me. Also, the image of water in various degrees of disturbance - from ripples to roiling white caps - helps me to understand that when my mind is not calm, it distorts what it encounters.

The problem with your acquaintance who accuses you of lying is that instead of helping you move to a place of greater calm and clarity, his words just churn you up more. Unfortunately I think I sometimes do that with my son too. If he hits my tender spots, it's hard for me to be my best self. Those are the worst times, because I can't really help him to be calm if I'm not calm myself.

The thing is, my cognitive problems remain even when my mood is good. Yes a bad mood makes it worse. But, the really bad issues I have when suddenly I can't type properly and it feels like my brain is going haywire always happens on days when I feel good and I feel like I can actually get something done. Then BAM for like 2-3 hours my brain goes haywire. It's like a when you're driving listening to the raideo and suddenly it goes all staticky for no reason.

I agree though, bad mind loops are emotionally charged. Any emotion: fear, anxiety, sadness, excitement, anger, cheer.... it doesn't matter good or bad, those are really emtional times.

Yeah, I was afraid you were going to say that. There goes my pet theory.

Ok, another pet theory of mine: sleep. Do you sleep well? My son complains that even when he sleeps it isn't good, deep sleep.

mine do too

Well, maybe not completely off, Costello. I think with looping intrusive thoughts we have thought content that can be strongly influenced by emotional state. I know that when I get really angry or defensive that my thinking and judgement become restricted and sometimes blank. Just a severe case of a normal response. Cognitive therapy can help somewhat with this problem, I believe.

I have a theory about cognitive deficits in psychotic disorders (probably not my own theory - the sources are a bit scrambled to me). I think the other difficulty that Faerie Moon X, Newtus, your son and I have is what I affectionately term fried brain syndrome. Psychotic experiences do something to our brains that messes with our executive functions. Memory, organisational thinking and keeping details top of mind can become quite a challenge for us. Our brains tend to operate quite differently to most people. I attempt to cope with this deficiency by trying intuition rather than good old left brain processing. Sometimes insights jump out at me, that surprise others. Other times I feel I just can't get anything right, and have to hold my tongue.
Because it takes a long time for us to rewire our fried circuitry (if we are lucky), the cognitive deficits tend to be longer term issues, while mood or emotionally reactive triggers can influence our thinking abilities in the very short term, but within the constraints of our brain's general capacity.

I don't sleep well. When not manic I can sleep 6 hours continuously, but the dreams are very vivid and often with horrible content. During an episode, the dream content seems continuous with daytime visions. I'm not in a major episode at the moment, but the dreams still mess with the quality of sleep. Maybe the meds messing with arousal states?

I actually sleep pretty good. I try to stay on my schedule. I have times when I don't sleep as good but for the most part I get 7 hours a night on a steady basis.

^^^ I agree with all of this. It feels like I have wires loose in my head or something.

Faerie Moon

I'm sorry that you're struggling with cognitive issues. I have some issues too, but not as severe as yours and possibly different in that I have less problems verbally, though at my worst I will completely fail to understand sentences/words as they will sound like nonsense.

I've said before that my IQ dropped 11 points from what it was before due to these problems, so these difficulties are objective and I believe that yours are too. IDK if that helps, but it helped me after I was tested. I was sad that I had these problems but I was happy that I could prove it on paper and could prove that it wasn't 'all in my head'.

I struggle mostly with my working memory, and majorly my visual processing abilities (so copying information and reading), but my verbal ability during the test was the same as previously. IDK what that means in terms of whether all our problems are similar & caused by the same issue/process or what, but I am interested in this issue. FWIW pdoc says that my issues are not due to the meds or psychosis but my depression, and as soon as my depression lifts, so will the cognitive problems. I do worry that he's wrong though :/
And they do make it really hard for me to study

*Willow*

I have half a mind to tell a pdoc to take what he's selling before telling me it has no cognitive impact. The lower I get on the meds the more easily I can read the faster I can think and even type more accurately. It's like a whole new world, I thought I had dropped 10-20 IQ points but I think it was all the meds. Now while I was sick there were different stronger cognitive issues where I couldn't remember things at all and had to make constant notes so there is a balance. I needed the meds initially but now I can't get off fast enough.

Yes, this exactly! Another reason I want off meds: I'm rather attached to my brain!

*Willow*

This makes me wonder if the dose was too high. I only take 1 mg of Abilify and find it does not make me feel slow at all. Actually, it has improved my concentration.

I was taking 10mg, its a whole different game. But it goes up to like 30mg, pdoc keeps telling me how low my dose is at 5mg, basically 10mg is the starting dose for psychosis. I was totally hyper on 10mg but I couldn't read my favorite types of books (fiction) only non-fiction because it was easier. Now I can read fiction again.

I'm glad its working for you, I mean it was a real lifesaving med for me but it has its limitations.

Thank you all.

Willow, my executive cognition is what's going. My working memory is bad also. Also I can't focus on reading and it messes with my understanding. When I can focus I understand just fine. My processing is slow. So, it takes me a long time to react to stimulous. Such as if asked a question I might sit there for a minute. Or, if I'm trying to find a place to click on teh screen (like a link or tab) it takes me a long time to find it. Sometimes when peopel talk to me it just sounds like mush and nonsense. I have to ask for a repeat. Sometimes I'll say what I hear outloud so they see I'm not understanding. My ability to organize is really bad. Like folding and putting away clothes is an example. I get confused. I confuse what time it is, flipping morning/afternoon. Dialing phone numbers is often impossible. Sometimes 5-6 tries to dial one number. (And this is my job so it's very frustrating.)

Please remember that the majority of the time I'm not on any meds. In 2006 I took abilify for about 2 weeks. In 2009 I took Lamictle for about 2 weeks.

In 2009 I took lithium for:
Sept lithium for about 2 weeks 300 mg
2010 January 300 mg for 2 weeks then 600 mg for February, then 1200 mg for two weeks in March, when then I started forgetting until I completely forgot.

Then I took 300 mg of lithium November 2012 for the month before I started forgetting and totally forgot.

Then 2013 I took 300 mg lithium July for 7 days early in the month, then since the 26th I've remembered to take it 4 times. (this is how bad I forget to take pills, and why I'm on IUD and not pills, haha...) I didn't take it last night. I think I'm done taking them... after the other day I just feel it isn't helping my anger which is why I started taking them again.