I'm sorry...

I've actually grew up in a house that was built in the early 1900's. It was a beautiful house but it wasn't taken care of properly and it was in a sketchy neighborhood. When I was 13 that's when we moved into our cookie cutter house which was built in the late 80's but in a nice neighborhood.

Oh, so this is recent. I was going to respond to that earlier post about the impreciseness of language and the subjectivity of human experience. It's the kind of thing I think about - or I did when I was younger - although maybe not as obsessively as you seem to be going at it.

I remember when I was 10 thinking that one day I might be able to switch bodies with someone else. Like my soul or essence or energy or whatever would go into their body and theirs into mine. Then I'd spend a good deal of time fretting about what if their sense perceptions were different from mine and green, for example, looked purple and square looked round.

I also studied linguistics for a while, so I've some idea of the imprecision of language and how your native language can even shape the way you see the world.

Plus there's just the fact that our perceptions are limited by the capabilities of our eyes, ears, tongue, and so on.

I'm sorry you're finding it so distressing. I think it's kind of interesting.

I'm re-reading Anthony de Mello's Awareness right now. He talks a lot about the feebleness of language to explain anything important. He warns not to get caught up in the words. They're just meant to be pointers toward the truth. They're not the truth themselves.

Needs chickens.

Beautiful!

Okay I peeked back in and went eeek! ...but then there were these flowers! Good stuff.

I like your photos. Thanks for sharing. This one reminds me old Quebec City, which is one of the few cities in Canada that has European-like buildings in it.

I often feel life has no purpose, that we are nothing more than flesh and bone with a highly developed brain. Since, we are aware of our mortality, a lot of us get lost. Our animal instincts are to survive, but since we are able to recognize our limited time here, a lot of us want to live rather than survive. Thoughts about the meaning of life can be very overwhelming. I'm trying to figure out ways to make them more tolerable as I work through them.

Everything you are feeling is real. It is okay to introspect, but damn, it can be painful. I see it as a part of the process that eventually leads to our metamorphosis (if we permit ourselves). Our personal growth depends on it.

Your post really impressed me, because you put a lot of thought into it which makes it authentic. You think. Your posts draw me in, because I'm going through similar difficulties right now. Your words describe some of my own experiences that I can't put into words. Thank you for sharing your experiences and thoughts.

I agree that life feels purposeless. Religion gives us purpose, but I tend not to find it satisfying, because it feels like a purpose made up by someone - usually someone or group who lived and died eons ago.

I think our frontal lobes created a lot of trouble for us. I don't see my chickens or dogs or cat sitting thinking about the past or the future. They're just living in the present, and it seems much easier for them.

I see the story of Adam and Eve being thrown out of the Garden of Eden as symbolic of the development of our frontal lobes. When we gained knowledge and self-consciousness, we had to leave the "paradise" of an animal living in the moment without fear of the future or regret for the past. The answer to me is not to go back to Eden but to move forward to the next higher plane. If we don't, we'll annihilate ourselves. I sometimes think that wouldn't be an entirely bad thing.

I'm enjoying Willow's posts too.

We have too little space for many one story houses. They tend to be favoured by the elderly and disabled because they've no stairs, but they tend to be small cos land is at a premium. In France they have a similar population to us, I believe, but way more land than us and so substantially-sized one story houses were more common, except in cities.

My parent's house was built in 190_ and so it has lots of Victorian features. It would've been a sea captain's house as we are right by what was a thriving port. The area is now quite deprived, but nice IMO as we are by the coast, in the city, but close to motorways and countryside. Thatched cottages and Tudor-style houses are common nearby, but so are modern buildings due to the redevelopment of the port area.

I think it would be interesting to me too if I could get past the pointlessness of everything. How can I understand my bodily sensations and behaviours? We talk about such things as if they are facts, but they are just interpretations. I interpret my sensations, possibly inaccurately; I transform my interpretations into inaccurate words, which then get interpreted again by the hearer/reader. And so 'A' got converted to 'a' by my words, which then got converted to 'b' by your interpretation. It's like playing Chinese whispers!! So what's the point?! I cannot know what it is that I feel. I cannot accurately convey what I experience. And no one can accurately understand what another experiences or even what another intends by their words, so it's best not to try. Yesterday I made a post about That Which Must Not Be Discussed in support of a poster and yet my words, regardless of how carefully I crafted them, were taken in complete opposite of what I intended, which resulted in yet more hurt feelings, both mine and others. And so it is best to just keep quiet...yet there is this impossible desire to be understood. It is incredibly frustrating!

Would reading this book perhaps help me find a way forward Costello? Because quite frankly I no longer desire to exist in a world without meaning. Actions are meaningless and yet I yearn to have a purpose. Returning to Uni would just be an illusion of purposefulness because a MSc is meaningless. It wouldn't make me feel intelligent. It wouldn't give my life meaning. Getting a job in psychology is a waste of time because psychology is just as pointless as psychiatry. I cannot understand myself so how can I help another understand themselves and find meaning in a world where meaning is just an illusion??

I don't really understand what caused the 'eek', but it is nice to 'see' you Gr3tta. I hope all is well in your world

Thank you for your appreciation of my ramblings Didgee

Thank you too, Costello, for your appreciation

We cannot know what animals experience. We just assume from their behaviour that they are content, but we could be wrong: same as people assumed from my smile in hospital that my pain was fictional.

You cannot un-know knowledge, same as fictional Adam & Eve couldn't un-eat the fictional apple.

I'm not sure there is a 'higher plane'...annihilating myself sounds good right about now though...too bad I'm a coward (I am in no danger of hurting myself or ceasing to exist any time soon, for anyone concerned, but sometimes it is comforting to imagine the nothingness that is oblivion)

*Willow*

For me I find that helping others gives my life meaning...I'm not always the best at it but I do try...I think a psych degree could help you prevent needless suffering but that's only one way. Sometimes help doesn't have to be verbal. A physical therapist helps people by getting them mobile. An OT just gets people involved in life again. A game of chess or even cards might mean the world to someone isolated even with minimal conversation. Some day someone is going to look at a milk jug elephant on their shelves and remember they day you gave of yourself to develop that idea and help them make it. To me that is value and meaning and I don't care if its happening in a literal sense or if this whole world is just a dream its still meaningful.

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Originally Posted by WeepingWillow23 land is at a premium.

I've heard that same thing from others from the UK.

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I think it would be interesting to me too if I could get past the pointlessness of everything.

I get that.

Have you ever seen I Huckabees? You might not enjoy it. It's one of the few movies I actually own. It speaks to me in some way. The statement about the pointlessness of it all reminds me of the character played by Isabelle Huppert who represents a nihilistic view.

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How can I understand my bodily sensations and behaviours? ...

IMO you're correct. Translating reality - as we perceive it, which isn't really reality/truth - into language is impossible. Then even our faulty attempts will be misunderstood when we try to communicate them. I think the goal is to learn to get comfortable with that. Otherwise you'll drive yourself insane - literally.

Just accept it. We'll never communicate perfectly. Not even close. Just accept that and continue doing your best.

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We talk about such things as if they are facts, but they are just interpretations.

Yep. And then when we accept them as facts we begin to interpret future and related events in light of what we believe to be the facts. We filter our the world through our worldview. The answer isn't to sink into despair. The answer is to be aware of the fact, to know that what you see as the truth may not be the truth. You have to keep your mind open, but you also have to keep it closed enough to function. You have to have some ground to stand on, so you need to say to yourself, "This is how I understand this issue at the moment." (Anyway I've wandered off topic a bit.)

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Would reading this book perhaps help me find a way forward Costello?

I don't know. He's kind of in-your-face. It might be too harsh for you in your present mind set. Anthony de Mello was a Jesuit and a psychotherapist, but the philosophy in his books and lectures draws on Hinduism, Buddhism, and mysticism - the sort of spirituality I'm interested in.

Here's a link to the book online. It's badly OCR'ed. You could probably find a better version somewhere.

Full text of "Awareness - Anthony De Mello"

The first time I read it, I felt like I'd been punched in the gut. This time there's no shock, so it's easier. Plus I've read a lot of similar things in the interim.

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Because quite frankly I no longer desire to exist in a world without meaning. Actions are meaningless and yet I yearn to have a purpose.

I just discovered Eckhart Tolle. For years I refused to read his books because he's one of Oprah's pets. Well, I picked up one of his books on CD a month ago at the library, and frankly it really spoke to me. Now I've listened to two of his books - several times each - and read a third. I'm starting on a fourth this evening. The subtitle of the book I've just finished is Awakening to Your Life's Purpose. It's not some kind of self-help book. It's a book about spirituality.

He talks about an inner purpose and an outer purpose. Your inner purpose is just to wake up, according to Tolle - which means to be present in the now, like Buddhism's idea of mindfulness. Your outer purpose is what you do in the world, which could be anything. The difference is how you do it.

If you look at de Mello's book I linked to above, you'll find many of the same ideas. I believe Tolle studied de Mello and the teachers that de Mello studied.

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We cannot know what animals experience. We just assume from their behaviour that they are content, but we could be wrong: same as people assumed from my smile in hospital that my pain was fictional.

Animals don't put on a brave face like we do, although they do cover up injuries because revealing them makes them vulnerable to attack.

Here are some things that people do (well, at least that I do, so I assume others do as well) which I feel strongly that animals don't do:

1. Spend hours lost in thought while missing out on my life.

2. Spend hours looking back in regret on past decisions, words, and actions.

3. Spend hours looking forward in hope or fear of the future which I think will be better or worse than the present depending on my mood.

4. Make a mental image of myself, my ego, and try to project that image out into the world as if it were myself. Animals are themselves. People create images which they think they are or would like to be then defend those images as if they were defending their very lives.

5. Have a colossal ego built up of my thoughts, my opinions, my story around which everything I say or do revolves - even though it isn't me; it's a fiction.

Those are just some things animals don't do. And IMO it's why they don't have the angst we humans have. They can have pain if they're hungry or hurt or whatever. But they don't make their pain a hundred times worse by making up a story about it or thinking about all the past times they were hurt or worrying about all the future times they might be hurt. All of that is courtesy of our frontal lobes.

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You cannot un-know knowledge, same as fictional Adam & Eve couldn't un-eat the fictional apple.

You don't really have to.

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I'm not sure there is a 'higher plane'...

I believe there is.

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annihilating myself sounds good right about now though...

Yes, it looks attractive sometimes.

I feel strongly that we're all connected to one another and all life. When we harm ourselves, we harm others. When we harm others, we harm ourselves. Maybe some people wouldn't care about that. Having said that, I've been in that dark place myself a number of times - even within the last six months or so researching methods - so I know that in the right (or wrong!) mood, it wouldn't matter to me. I wonder if anger unlies suicide more than depression.

Hi Willow! Just speaking for myself, a sign of my illness is believing I don't have one. Maybe you should consult your doctor before confessing to fraud. Just my opinion because I know how my mind works. That's why I have a WRAP.

Willow, I don't really know what to say but I am glad you are writing about it all. I think it's great that you're continuing to express yourself here.

This is a really good point. I was actually discussing this with my boyfriend the other night - a friend of ours had a bad (might be BPD) episode. She and her partner were very against meds for a long time, but now that there has been a steady decline, they're considering getting help. I think a common component of mental illness is telling yourself that you don't need help, that you're better without it, that drugs are a crutch, until it reaches a point where you convince yourself that you don't, in fact, have an illness at all. I used to do all of those and thought I was strong because of it. Now that I'm on medication and much more stable, it's crazy to look back and think of how bad I was and how debilitating and harmful these thoughts can be.

Willow, I definitely agree about consulting your doctor. Also, I read that having a sudden, defining moment (that you've seen all the shades of grey and that you've actually been faking) is a common symptom of schizophrenia. Although, I don't know your conditions, so I can't say.

I hope you're doing well.

Is that true? People with sz think that they faked it? I constantly have moments were im convinced i've faked my past episodes and its one of the main reasons i dont take my meds.

I don't know if it's true of everyone, but I've definitely had moments of wondering if I made it all up. Especially now that I haven't been severely psychotic in awhile it all feels surreal looking back on it.

Thanks atypical that's really helpful to know. I often feel like I made it up and it makes me feel so sick and guilty that I can't face taking the meds because I don't need them if I'm a fake

It gives me panic attacks if I think about it too much

Of course it would. No person with any sort of a conscience would feel good about the possibility of having faked something so major.

In life I'm a very honest person (sometimes too honest) and I can't deal with that possibility. Even small lies make me feel like ****. I don't know how to get it out of my head, it's a massive barrier between me and my treatment. Maybe I should tell my cpn.

I think talking about it with your cpn would be a good idea.

But given what you've said here, I find it highly unlikely that you're faking.

That really means a lot to me to hear someone say that. I'm the most honest about what goes on in my head on this site.
I will talk to my cpn. At least then they know that I'm not just being difficult by not taking meds too.

Yeah I think if you explained why you're having issues taking your meds they would be better equipped to help you.

I'm glad you can be honest here, and for what it's worth I can identify with a lot of the stuff you say.

I'm glad that you have found something that gives your life meaning. I think, having trouble with that myself, that it is important for people to believe that life has meaning, even if it really might not.

I'm just curious though, is it your intentions that give your actions meaning (i.e. the act of trying to help someone), or does it require others to actually feel helped?? I'm just thinking because people are sectioned by those who believe that they are helping that person, but by definition the person themselves disagrees that hospital would be helpful. The probability of any of the elephants that the kids made with my assistance even made it onto a shelf are slim - do they have to had enjoyed the activity to make it meaningful to me?? I'm just thinking out loud because I do not remember 90% of my teachers, none of my teaching assistants, hardly any of my youth leaders and virtually no activities that I participated in, so does that negate the goodness of their intentions? I assume that I have to reach a decision myself, so I'm not expecting anyone to provide an answer.

Thank you Costello. I will look into the film and authors. I'm not sure that I agree about the animal stuff though, because they cannot communicate with us to try to describe what they are thinking about, although as we know that is fraught with difficulties too.

Thank you for your reply Risenfrominsanity. I did actually do that, though I appreciate that this is a long thread and you may not have realised that. He said that he didn't think that I was faking, but that was about it.

Thank you Atypical. I have this desperate need to understand and be understood, in spite of the futility of communication, and that is why I keep finding myself rambling here.

Thank you Ceramichornets for your well wishes. I am glad that you find medication helpful. My parents have just spent the evening attempting to convince me that a further attempt at medication, if they can convince the GP to prescribe anything, will somehow help me, but that has not been my experience over the last 7 years. The only thing that I have found a medication helps with are auditory hallucinations, but they are few and far between right now. Taking medication right now will just cause me further problems, like weight gain and reduced self esteem, sedation, more apathy, akathisia etc.



I find that with the voices





I agree.

Talking to your CPN might help

My parents and one of my siblings forced me into having a conversation this evening about how I'm doing. Apparently they're worried. Somehow they can know that my grip on reality is slipping from my behaviour alone, which is quite impressive when you think about it!! And I discovered that the worse thing you can say to someone who believes that you are 'losing touch with reality' is that reality is an illusion and doesn't exist! Well it would be funny, if they weren't insisting on me needing to go to the GP for medication he won't want to prescribe, that I don't want to take because it won't help. Or there is paying an obscene amount of money to a private therapist, which I think is pointless too. At least they have now left me in peace, though I have a feeling that the conversation is far from over *sigh*

*Willow*

Willow...I really don't think for me it depends on how they actually feel so much as how I Imagine they feel in two opposing scenarios.. My main way of helping isn't even helping right now but in the future it could save a bunch of babies from dying....the babies will have no idea and the moms will totally take it for granted that medicine saved their child and probably attribute it to God...there are no thanks but there are people who won't die and moms who won't have to buy tiny caskets...and we're talking about people in countries that have been either oppressed, corrupted or simply lack natural resources. As someone who got extremely lucky in life I want to spend it helping people got short changed due to a random circumstance of birth....I am fighting chaos, fate, destiny and I will likely lose but I'm still going to fight....why? Because while the odds are against me the more of us that do this the better the odds that somebody wins....check this out... http://i.imgur.com/vuegm5x.png

In 1900 over half of everyone died of infectious disease...now 3% do. The pie chart it's still 100% we all still die but did your brother get polio and become crippled for life while your sister died from scarlet fever. I can't stop death it's always coming but by doing my part along with others we can change how people experience life....people have no idea how awful it was to standardly lose half your kids and I don't want them to know....I don't want that to be a social norm anywhere...so for me that's enough...

lol...

Would this convince them?



Or maybe you'd best leave it alone?

Btw I just learned a new (to me) Einstein quote: Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.