schizophrenia great news

Anyway it seems were debating after all. I can only , leave it at , so far off topic now...

Look into the area deeply & there is reams of evidence for it all. But debating with materialists on the matter is like trying to tell a born again Christian than Jesus doesn't exist - it can't be done.

Getting back to the thread - i think the problem here is that we're far more than just a bag of meat & our biology - even from a more secular perspective we're social creatures, with a social brain - which is very well established.

Even if we map exactly the entire physiology to all mental health disorders, it doesn't explain any of it - all it shows is biological differences that people place different judgements on the people that have them & on what they experience - to my mind it answers nothing anyway.

i think there are also some very grave implications & very serious/complex moral questions with messing around with peoples genes.

Especially when there is a very big question mark over the efficacy of genuinely comprehensive psychosocial (& spiritual) alternatives for people in psychological/emotional distress, questions that haven't been properly answered nor established - Over the usual reaction of lock up/label & drug.

Schizophrenia, Psychiatry and Mysticism

Schizophrenia, Psychiatry and Mysticism

Schizophrenia is to mystical experience as drowning is to swimming. Psychiatry in this analogy is like an over zealous lifeguard who can't tell the difference between drowning and swimming. Everybody he sees in the water is run over by his rescue boat, knocked unconscious and hauled out with a boat hook. Most of the people rescued, swimmers and drowners alike, are crippled in the process.

The lifeguard, who can't swim himself, denies that swimming is possible and claims that the crippling is actually caused by the drowning experience rather than the rescue. This is confirmed by raucous praise for the lifeguard from many of the crippled drowners and their relatives.

The crowd of spectators on the beach are divided. A few of them can tell the difference between swimming and drowning, but most can't. The crowd is persuaded by the drowners and their relatives to support the lifeguard's tactics.

Swimmers who aren't too badly crippled and who want to go back into the water have to learn how to swim without splashing so as not to attract attention. It's important for those who know how to swim to maintain the skill so it can be passed on. Eventually everyone will have to learn to swim so we can cross to the other side.

Common sense would indicate that an ability to swim should be a prerequisite for appointment as a lifeguard. Perhaps this will happen one day.

You should know that my 'process' brought me to a different understanding , of which I have surmised for you. So all the metaphors you have quoted in your last post have zero meaning for me.

In terms of paradigms , perspectives etc , your expressed view that the shift away from materialism is certain does not ring true. Do you really think that the processes that have being happening on this planet for the last 3.5 - 4 billion years are going to fundamentally change? Of which man kind occupy a decimal of that time, What of the great apes , and all our countless predecessors , that was self aware of little , do you think that we are that much better than them.

To quote a metaphor , The only way that materialism could be vanquished, is that the walls of our known universe should cave in and 'magic' run supreme. What are the chances of that?

My understandings of the processes of life are totally different to yours. But i agree that we're in part largely hairless walking talking apes & little evolved from our ancestry & the slime physical life emerged from, evidenced by the largely hellish & uncivilised nature of the culture/society/civilisation that we live in.

We'll have to agree to disagree about what i see as an approaching shift away from materialism. & we'll wait & see what happens.

i also very much respect someone holding atheist/scientific materialist & secular/humanist views, am a very strong advocate of genuine free speech/open discussion - & from a certain perspective i don't see atheism/materialism all as wrong, & do see a certain validity within it all, especially concerning the study of the physical - i just don't see it as the full picture of reality - very far from it. As an explanation of reality it is ridiculous.

i'm Not denying the reality of the physical Universe. Is that all there is? Your quite free to think & believe that, indeed many do. Is it the truth, & an actual summation & accurate understanding of full reality? i'd wager it's not. i don't see that 'scientific' materialism has explained all of reality (nor ever will do)? It in fact explains incredibly little, & denies many things that don't fit with it's paradigm, but maybe i'm missing something?

As i say - i'm perfectly happy & content to agree to disagree - we all have our own experience & opinions.

A world view that totally denies/explains as illusion the subjective reality - & states that the only existence is physical 'objective matter' (based wholly on an unproven, unfounded & disproved assumption, that it holds as unquestionable) is Insane, dangerously so. It is also Not genuine science - it's No different to a fundamentalist fixed religious belief. It's delusional.

Thank you.


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No one i know denies the mind or conciousness.

& what do you think the mind/consciousness is? Unless you think it's an illusion then you're subscribing to some extent/form of Dualism (whether you realise that or not).

It's not been established/proved that it's all an epiphenomenon of the brain.

A basic overview of the 'problem' is outlined here with a discussion between 3 materialists & a philosopher - (i know it's a bit long, but it's well worth a listen) -



This is also a very good talk on why this is pertinent -

Until we can get scientific proof (that is accepted by materialists/the orthodox/establishment), & from the materialist box it's impossible (a sub set can't describe a larger system) - we're stuck with the debate - But at least it's a debate that's increasingly being had.

The primacy of consciousness (summation, full length talk on youtube)



& someone that has produced a science to back it up (as are increasingly more people/areas) -

Home - My Big Toe

It will all shift - & it's not just consciousness areas - there is the whole area of synthetic telepathy using computer technology - if you're familiar with the recent breakthroughs in that area?

http://io9.com/technologically-assis...uma-1630047523

It's an area of research that has profound implications, for many reasons.

Rupert Sheldrake also points out very clearly why materialism/reductionism isn't the full picture - http://www.theguardian.com/books/201...eldrake-review

Tons of info on all these areas out there.

I think my mind is created by my brain. And no its not an 'illusion'. A word loaded with subterfuge to begin with.

In terms of your reference to computer software , I have a degree in computer science and understand algorithms and how they relate to mathematics , I also understand some of the basic premise around artificial intelligence. My brain does not compute any other way , I could never reconcile with your view , and i see logical fallacies , in the majority of what you say.

Prove it - or show me where materialist science proves that in any way, shape or form?

Well , you could start by reading literature on stroke , or brain trauma , or epilepsy and their effect , measured by observed deficits in various mind/brain functionality.

Read a book from Oliver Sacks.

I look at it as we're trapped in machines. If the machine breaks or malfunctions we can't express through it the same. We're trapped in the machine until it breaks down for the last time.

Doesn't prove that the mind/consciousness is created by the brain (which isn't proved by materialism) - just shows an interrelationship - some have compared it to a TV set.

“What we know is a drop, what we don't know is an ocean.” - Isaac Newton

Some hairless apes, barley evolved from barbarism, on a blue speck of nothing in the vastness of the Universe/Cosmos & we think we know a lot!? & have answered the questions as to the nature of reality, lol, yea OK.

It's human ego, arrogance & stupidity that is limitless - Not our knowledge.

You know very little about science or how it works.

Newton died nearly 290 years ago , and was the grandfather of modern 'science' , 290 years ago we knew very little , present day we know more and 290 years into the future we will know more still , and on and on it will go.

That`s my last post on the matter.

i know quite a bit - have studied & read a lot on it all.

Lets have someone more recent -

"We still do not know one thousandth of one percent of what nature has revealed to us." - Albert Einstein

Interesting with Newton (& many others), they fully acknowledged the study of the physical & the physical realm is but a small aspect of the full extent of reality.

Isaac Newton's occult studies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i'll reiterate again - Materialism isn't science, it's a belief system based on an unfounded/unproven/disproved assumption. Genuine science may go on - materialism may not. Remains to be seen also what befalls this particular civilisation?

Very good interview with Rupert Sheldrake showing some of the limitations of current science -

Skip the start and begin at 9.35 mins



Has many implications on areas of mental health

Books on associated areas of interest -

The Ancestor Syndrome: Transgeneratio​nal Psychotherapy and the Hidden Links in the Family Tree
by Anne Ancelin Schutzenberger

Lost in Transmission: Studies of Trauma Across Generations
by M. Gerard Fromm

The Field: The Quest for the Secret Force of the Universe
by Lynne McTaggart

The Immortal Mind: Science and the Continuity of Consciousness Beyond the Brain
by Ervin Laszlo

Self-Aware Universe: How Consciousness Creates the Material World
by Amit Goswami, Richard Reed, Maggie Goswami

Mind, Matter and Quantum Mechanics (The Frontiers Collection)
by Henry P. Stapp

A very good talk that explains the differences in World views & what explains what -

Consciousness and Modern Physics: The Limits of Science ~ Steve Pollaine | Science and Nonduality

Consciousness is either an emergent property based on the brain, a fundamental feature of the universe related to quantum mechanics and entanglement, or is something more fundamental than the physical world. What does the evidence show?

This is genuine great news - & it needs to be accepted by the mainstream -

“The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence.”.

- Nikola Tesla

Distinguished Scientists Gather To Emphasize: ?Matter? Is NOT The Only Reality | Collective-Evolution

Manifesto for a Post-Materialist Science - Campaign for Open Science

Consciousness: Why Materialism Fails - Campaign for Open Science

As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.

— Max Planck, Das Wesen der Materie, 1944

Is Consciousness Universal? - Scientific American

For every inside there is an outside, and for every outside there is an inside; though they are different, they go together.
—Alan Watts, Man, Nature, and the Nature of Man, 1991

http://philosophyafterdark.com/2012/...ght-be-better/

http://www.bernardokastrup.com/2015/...m-warning.html