what do YOU MEN say?

OT mellors, that could be the ending to a really good inpatient story I'm a thinkin' </font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
granted we were both hospitalised, under section, but when we both got released the same day, the first thing we did was buy a carton of smokes and a box of condoms and the rest is history.

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beginning of a nightmare more like sky, the situation in which we met should have been a big clue to what i was setting myself up for, in this case love truley was blind

ah yes but what a movie ! ((((safe hugs))))

well first off......I've never had that problem...maybe thats a good thing.

Secondly- Hard to get.....thats fine, I'm madly in love with my wife because she's the greatest ! <font color="#880000"> </font>

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alexandra_k said:
(i guess the notion is that a girl should put out for them and nobody else. if a girl doesn't put out for them then she is a 'hold-out' or is 'frigid'. if a girl puts out for others - as well as them - then she is a 'slut' or a 'pro' or whatever)

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As I was reading this I got all my feelings of shame and guilt back full force. I was brought up traditionally as well, so for me to never have waited more than just a couple of dates before climbing into bed with someone...ugh! It also reminded me of something a nurse asked me- she wanted to know how much my BPD has influenced my ?promiscuity. I had never thought about that before, esp as this is a fairly new diagnosis for me, but there could be some corelation between the 2.. I do feel like a real 'slut' tho because of my behaviours. Also, IRL my male friends used the word 'slut' to answer the 1st question, altho in their double standards (or possibly their hormone-driven minds?!) that appeared to be what at least 3 of them were wanting..

Quote- a woman who dresses like a slut and goes out and wants men to stare at her-THINKS
"what the man will think of me? how i make him like me?"
she is not being her real self. a real women is modest. a woman who has enough self respect. esteem adn confidence.

I had always considered those women who dared to dress that way as ppl who have gd self esteem- imo they would need to in order to walk down the street wearing those type of clothes.

And just as an aside to mellors- i met my ex in the same situation...as you said it should have been fair warning as to how things would go- nightmare-wise!!- but love (or what I thought was love) is blind. Could be a great topic though... how have relationships turned out between those who have met in a psych ward..... The success stories and the others...

I know plenty of women who dress modestly who have low self-esteem. And, as I've said, dressing provocatively doesn't mean a woman has low self-esteem.

A woman can dress provocatively and think she looks good for herself. It doesn't mean she doesn't want to appeal to men, but it doesn't mean she isn't appealing to herself, too. A woman doesn't have to like modest clothing to like herself.

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Maven said:
I know plenty of women who dress modestly who have low self-esteem. And, as I've said, dressing provocatively doesn't mean a woman has low self-esteem.

A woman can dress provocatively and think she looks good for herself. It doesn't mean she doesn't want to appeal to men, but it doesn't mean she isn't appealing to herself, too. A woman doesn't have to like modest clothing to like herself.

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I tend to dress in a way that other people might deem "provocative." I dress tastefully, IMO, but I like to show off my curves and my physical assets. I always have had high self-esteem. I like who I am. I know I'm intelligent and interesting and funny. My body doesn't define who I am, but it's part of me. I like the shape of my body and I don't want to hide it. I feel like I'm celebrating who I am in the way I dress. I wear clothes that I like and express my creativity -- the colours and fabrics and cuts that I find aesthetically-pleasing. My skirts are usually tight, I almost always wear high heels and most of my tops are rather low-cut. When I was working in a very conservative office and had to be more covered up, I didn't feel like myself. I felt like I was trying to be someone other than who I am.

My mum is the same way. She was often criticized cruelly by women who went to her church (she goes to a very conservative church). She wouldn't wear low-cut stuff to church. She would go out of her way to dress conservatively at church and church-related functions but because of her figure, she can look sexy in a turtleneck and an ankle-length skirt. Other women in the church would say nasty things about her because of it. My mum is far from being a slut, though. She has been married to my dad since 1964 and he's the only man she has ever been with. She has a lovely figure, she works hard on keeping herself slim and fit and healthy and she likes the way she looks and sees no reason to conceal her figure in loose, unflattering clothes. She is very religious and truly believes that "the body is the temple" and that's why she takes such good care of her "temple" and isn't ashamed of it.

P.S. In my new job, I'm allowed to dress the way I want to dress and that makes me enjoy my job more. I feel like myself. I have to say I find it incredibly gratifying when I meet new people professionally, and I can tell they're immediately jumping to the conclusion that I'm a brainless blonde cutie. It feels really good when they get to know me better and hear what I have to say and I see them realizing there's much, much more to me. Looks can be deceiving and it's not a good idea to judge a book by its cover.

I can tell that you're one of the women I'd see on the street and be insanely jealous of!

I'm not so happy with my body; I have lumps where I don't want them. Others tell me I seem very confident, and most of the time I am. I tend to wear lower cut shirts, because my bust-line is a feature that I do like about myself. I don't let things "hang out" but I do like to accentuate the part of my body that I do like. I find that when my clothes fit well but not too tight, that I feel better about my body image.

I am definetly struggling right now though with my body image. After several failed attempts with some of my male friends who are now dating skinny girls, its hard to see that someone might find me attractive. I know that everyone is different though. My ex loved an old baseball type shirt that I have. He always said I looked sexy in a t-shirt and jeans as well as my tank tops that are a little more revealing. I try to remember that beauty is in the eye of the beholder when I get dressed to go out. I mainly dress for myself, and wear what I feel pretty in.

First of all, I have seen a photo of you and I think you're beautiful. You remind me of a young Ali McGraw (in Love Story).

Beauty definitely is in the eye of the beholder, though. It took me a long time to be okay with the way I look. I would love to be one of those waifish, skinny girls, but I never will be and I have accepted that. Even when I was very sick and extremely thin, I still had a big butt and sturdy legs. Apparently, I come from hardy, peasant stock. I'm a solid girl. There are men who love curves and those are the men who will be attracted to women like us.

When I was in my early 20s, a boyfriend told me I had the biggest arse of any women he had ever dated. I was devastated... and then I found out that he meant it as a compliment. LOL. I have also come to accept that "leg men" will never be attracted to me, because my calves could be better described as "cows." They belong on a male rugby player. That's why I wear knee-high leather boots when I wear a short skirt. My "cows" are not a feature I like to show off.

I have terribly crooked teeth (think Jewel or Patricia Arquette) because my parents couldn't afford braces , but I have learned to accept them as something that gives me "character." It's all about how we perceive ourselves and making the most of what we have. I still criticize my looks more than I want to, but I'm much more accepting of and comfortable with my appearance than I was in my 20s. It takes a whole lot of positive self-talk to get to the point of accepting and liking the way we look... and I've found that men are often drawn to women who exude confidence. It's not always the most "typically beautiful" girl who gets the guy.

That is so true, Juliana! Confidence is one of the most important factors of beauty. The other (and this is my opinion) is good skin. Women with good skin can have other flaws and still be considered beautiful. I don't have great skin, unfortunately, but it's something I've observed.

Recently, a guy on a message board I visit said he's attracted to non-white women, because white women "don't age well." He said you see our veins more, and the flaws, as we age. It really hurt me, even though I have no reason to care what he thinks. I have no interest in him as a boyfriend (plus I already have one), and I think he has a wife. But I think his view reflects society, and I've been affected by society. I don't think I'm bad-looking, although I looked better younger, and my weight is a big issue in my low self-esteem. When I was thin (and young), guys whistled at me. So others obviously thought I was cute.

I am very unhappy with my looks and my health risks, plus not being in shape. I want to be athletic and of a healthy weight. I don't want to be skinny; I want some muscle, but not too much. The problem is getting myself to do what's necessary to achieve this. Part of that problem is my OCD. I hate sweating; it really worsens my OCD.

I'm babbling. I don't mind having a large butt, as long as it's not too big (to me). I think women look better with curves. And one man likes big butts so much, he wrote a rap song about it! ROFL!

I'm sorry your mom was treated that way. It's like some girls in school who develop large breasts. Even if they cover them up and never have sex or date, they get the reputation of "slut." The same goes for grown women.

If I had a good body ("hot" would be better ), I'd show off some of it. My taste isn't overly revealing, but I'm not going to cover it all up, either! I'd show some cleavage, hike up those puppies, and wear short skirts. But not too much cleavage and not too short skirts (for me; I have no problem if other women, including women I'm hanging out with, want to bare much more). I also realized today, even in my current body, I feel so much sexier and better about myself in new clothes that are in that "new" shape, that fit well and haven't been stretched out and dulled, as clothes tend to do over time. (Of course, I don't wash clothes correctly, in that I don't separate them as much as I should, so that doesn't help keep my clothes nice.) I don't get new clothes often, and my mom usually buys them when I do get them, but I had a shirt (and I have another) that I hadn't worn yet, and I wore it today, and felt really good.

just a quick note to reinforce that beauty is entirely society driven. in africa i had a waitress come up to my table just to tell me i had 'very big hips'. then she left and i sat there with my jaw on the table until i realised she meant it as a compliment. i spoke to her again later and told her if someone said that to me in europe it would be a huge insult but thank you for the compliment. she had no idea! lol.
plus an aside and i dont know if its relevant or not but when my mum was 50, also in africa, a young guy came up to her on the beach when she was in her bikini and stopped her just to tell her she was the most beautiful (my mum started to smile) OLD woman he d ever seen. hehehe. poor mum had no idea what to think feel or do!
sooooo forget what other people think. its about being healthy and feeling good in your own skin. my theory is sort all my mental health issues and my body will automatically feel good to me. then i can feel confident showing off as much or as little as i feel like on a given day. because i will know who i am.
but then... sort all my mental health issues??? what am i thinking??? sometimes it feels that by the time i get that done i ll be six feet under so it really wont matter what i look like or what i wear! lol

what happened to the men in this thread? ....haha

There's one!

GET HIM!!! Let's harness our power as women and make men a slave race!!!!!

I am a guy and to be honest I love sex but not at the price of a womens dignity, I once had the oppurtunty to have sex with a co worker who was completly drunk and instead I just looked after her and made sure no other guys took advantage of her.

joe would have had a buch of chicks after him in fireman days...
lol

some guys just come after u for sex if they know u give it up easy
i know from my experience they tell there friends about it all

one guy i seen for casual sex -he is a friends was for a long time before it got more... wont go into the story but he told his friends and was strange when we wood hang out together cos i knew they knew and they knew i knew they knew
but he never as far as i sensed or was told was it bad
hes still my friend its just gone back to how it was i think hes just bummed that i dont have sex with him anymore..

Psyclox, that's great to hear. And, any guy that has sex with a drunk women is committing rape, according to the law, because she cannot consent to it. Don't ask me what happens if he's drunk, too, or instead. I've gotten into discussions about this, but I'm telling everyone, because everyone should know, to protect themselves, whether it be from being raped, or from ending up in prison for being stupid.

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biiv said:
just a quick note to reinforce that beauty is entirely society driven.

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While I do believe that beauty (or what defines beauty) is greatly influenced by our society...... I personally do not believe that it is entirely driven by it - and if you don't agree just watch any kindergarten boy act (or react) when he is in the presence of a pretty kindergarten girl - especially one that he finds attractive / pretty.

I agree with Rhapsody.

hmmmm... attraction is very different to beauty though. attraction to me comes from more than physical appearance. honestly. its about body language and whatever else as well. for me im more often attracted to people who arent what is called objectively beautiful. but also even by kindergarden images of what is considered beautiful are already very well embedded in a childs subconscious.
thats just my relatively uninformed opinion based to a large degree on personal experiences though.
i actually find the mechanics of attraction absolutely fascinating. i wonder where it really comes from and, since there seems to be 'bad' attraction and 'good' attraction it opens a whole quesiton of whether you can 'create' attraction through, for example, changing thought patterns and fundamental conceptions about how people interact. if someone who has been abused is attracted to abusive people and can then turn that around through therapy so they are attracted to more healthy relationships what are the boundaries of this possibility? can we 'talk' ourselves into being attracted to any sort of person we want to be? if so to what extent does society manage attraction as well as the concept of beauty? ok might have gone off topic a bit. just thinking out loud. sorry! too much rambling in my head.
thanks for starting me thinking rhapsody.

That is such an interesting question, biiv. It is actually something I have been through recently. I met a guy who I didn't find physically attractive in any way. In fact, I found him unattractive. I felt ZERO chemistry with him. Our personalities clicked, though, and we started to spend a lot of time together. I sensed that he was interested in me and I decided to try to open my mind to the possibility of LEARNING to find him attractive... because I have a history of going for chemistry first, and ending up in emotionally unhealthy relationships. I decided to go for substance over superficial attraction this time round. Over a period of 6 months, I actually succeeded in CONVINCING myself to find him physically attractive. I didn't think it was possible, but because who he seemed to be inside was appealing to me, I developed a strong physical attraction to him.

P.S. There's a very odd addendum to this story that's much more complicated, but I won't go into that here.

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biiv said:
i actually find the mechanics of attraction absolutely fascinating. i wonder where it really comes from

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When you asked where does it come from it got me thinking back to a familiar TV show - Home Improvement w/ Tim Allen..... and his neighbor Mr. Wilson.
This particular show was about Tim being attracted to a business woman that came on his show and how Tim started to act while around her (flirty).

Well, Jill (his wife) noticed this and was hurt by Tim's reactions when he was around this woman and she said something to Tim about it and as usual Tim went to the fence to talk to his well educated and knowledgeable neighbor about the matter and this is what Mr Wilson said (more or less).

... That while Tim loves his wife and would never cheat on her - he was physically drawn to this woman due to their hormones being noticed (smelt) with in the nose - a biological force that usually cannot be denied when it goes into action, hence the natural sexual pulling of Tim to Her (and) that Tim was visually drawn to her for she represented the form of fertility in his mind eyes, that which a man subconsciously seeks in a female.

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Basically I mentioned this show for it shows how we can often be physically drawn to another person even when we are not wanting it - so to me attraction is created with in us and then it is sculpted and molded by our society (good and bad).

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WOW!! - - - - - TV can be entertaining and educational all at the same time.

I believe attraction, and the things we like, are not choices. Attractions and tastes can change, and are influenced by society and many other things.

I find, quite often, I'm not physically attracted to a person, only to find myself grow physically attracted when I develop attraction to their personality.

I'm a guy. I don't think any rules really apply. Since you know something about evolution you may know about all the cultural differences as well. What may be considered indecent in one place may be normal somewhere else. I read about one society where it was perfectly fine for women to go sleep with other guys when her husband was off on a hunting trip, then when he returned she did also, and there was no problem at all.
I know a woman who had sex with her husband on the first date, and they are still together after twenty years, so I guess he didn't respect her less. For me personally I would prefer to get to know someone before we have sex, because I am sensitive and to me sex does change things in the interaction. If the sex is good or she has a nice body it could blind me for a time to some qualities that don't work for me. Conversely if the sex does not seem good it may make me less inclined to notice some great qualities she may have. Also I have the notion that I want the sex to be special when we do have it, so I would rather see it as part of the experience of getting serious rather than treating it as a casual thing.
Having said all that, I'm a single guy and I do find it extremely hard to live without any sex. Masturbation is not enough. So while I would like someone special in my life I don't know how to satisfy that need in the meantime. I wish I could find women to have sex with until I get truly attached.

I just started dating a man and I told him that my personal rule for myself is that sex has to wait. I used it as a weapon in the past, thinking that sex was the only way a guy would like me. So for me, I need to begin the relationship not based on sex. He is in agreement, so we're waiting, but MAN is it hard....I just started dating him and already I want to rip his clothes off, but I'm not.

I never needed sex so bad that it drove me nuts...I do fine on my own when I'm not with someone. I have had "friends with benefits" though. Well just one. We've been good friends for years and like each other physically. But it only happened once in the past year. I think for some people, the friends with benefits thing works if there's absolutely no emotional attachment for both people, but I think thats rare to find.