Childhood spanking and sexual development

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sidony said:
You make a really good point here. I think any sort of violent act (spanking, slapping, more serious abuse, etc.) takes away the person's sense of ownership of their own body, makes them feel like they're someone else's object.

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I believe that's true of making a child show affection, as well. I saw that in some TV segment or read about it years ago. Telling a child to "Hug Uncle Sam" or "Kiss Aunt Dora" when the kid is resisting is telling the child s/he has no right to refuse giving affection and sharing intimacy when an adult asks, even if s/he's uncomfortable with it.

(Edited to add trigger icon)

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ECHOES said:

Spanking serves the adult; it is easy, quick, and resolves the adult's anger and reinforces in the adult the illusion that they are in control.

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I don't think Einstein could have put it better. Thanks, ECHOES.

Des

Lotusgirl,

Thank you very much for your post here. (!)

I really admire you for sharing what you did &amp; I agree w/ your viewpoint.

I also wanted to let you know that you are not alone..........in what you did..........

Take care.

Des

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Maven said:
I believe that's true of making a child show affection, as well. I saw that in some TV segment or read about it years ago. Telling a child to "Hug Uncle Sam" or "Kiss Aunt Dora" when the kid is resisting is telling the child s/he has no right to refuse giving affection and sharing intimacy when an adult asks, even if s/he's uncomfortable with it.

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That is a really good point and one I've never thought of! (Since it didn't happen to me, it hadn't really occurred to me.) Thanks for pointing that out!

Sidony

Since first starting this thread, I've read some more articles on corporal punishment and sexual identity. Anyone who finds the subject interesting should take a look at this page (warning: there is a LOT of content on sexuality, abuse, and other triggering subjects):

http://nospank.net/101.htm

On the right-hand side there are a lot of articles about sexuality. I particularly recommend the one called "The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children" (the first one). Had I not been already predisposed against spanking (because of the effects it had on my own sexual development), this article would have caused me to really think about it. There are a LOT of mixed messages in it.

There are lots of articles on that page about spanking and sexual development. The idea that spanking should be avoided because it can be innately sexual for some children (even though it was never intended that way) has actually been around since the 1700s. The philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau first wrote about it. I had no idea this had been talked about for so long! It's really been kept underground I think. It's an extremely inflammatory subject!

The right-hand side also contains lots of sad emails from people who feel that their lives were irrevocably damaged because they developed spanking fetishes. I guess there are a lot of people in the S&M spanking world who didn't want to be there.

Sidony

Lotusgirl,

Welcome!!

I was so moved by your post because where you are now is where I was at that age. You feel that your body is not yours to control, defend, love. I did too, and in addition I think I was looking for the affection I has missed, but didn't realize at that time...all I knew was that I didn't much care about the sex (that it was just a natural physical response to stimulation, like when your leg jerks when the doctor taps your knee) .. all I wanted was the non-sexual touch and the holding and cuddling. . I hope you are in or will consider therapy to help you a bit. You are very articulate, you have a lot of self-awareness, and you seem interested in having real or better relationships. Therapy can help you with that and you deserve caring and loving relationships now like you did as a little girl. Those needs can be filled in a healthier way and you can feel better.

I hope you won't wait for things to change, but instead will go for the changes you want. Life doesn't stand still. It keeps moving and you get to choose the direction!

It's so nice to meet you!

My dad used to punish me, His were a little more than just a spank, and no it wasn't sexual. But i turned out fine.

I don't see how spanking a child can be sexualized... If you were to pull their pants down and bend them over your knee and spank them then yeah, it could be taken in the sexual sense. But i have never known anybody to spank a child like that, it usually entails grabbing the arm lifting the child and smacking them on the backside fully clothed.

Sorry if that was a bit graphic, i just couldn't think of another way to explain.

Personally i think i turned out better than my brothers who were never punished physically because they were born after the change in the law.

I think children should be spanked if they are naughty, after all if someone said to a 6year old "Don't do that it's naughty" Do you think they'd listen?

Granted spanking is probably classed as bullying the child into your way of thinking, but the fear of another beating sure as hell stopped me being naughty.

(Edited to add trigger icon)

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Sammy said:
I don't see how spanking a child can be sexualized...

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Yeah some people would never be able to see it as sexual. And I think that's healthy!!! But I also think it's important to understand that some people DO see it as sexual and that seeing it that way is beyond their control. You have only to do an Internet search on the word "spanking" to find thousands of websites (in the U.S. and abroad) where people are practicing it for sexual pleasure. I doubt that particular fetishism would exist if no one experienced it in childhood (I personally think a person's sexuality is more or less "set" by the time they become an adult, but that's based on my experience).

Sidony

P.S. There are also physiological reasons why a person might experience it as sexual which was why I list the URL http://www.nospank.net/sexdngrs.htm (explains some of that)

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sidony said:
But I also think it's important to understand that some people DO see it as sexual and that seeing it that way is beyond their control. )

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Here I'm referring to the child not the parent. It took me years to understand it, but as an adult I'm able to realize that I experienced sexual arousal as a child without being able to understand what it was (I had no idea what sexual feelings were at that time).

Sid

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sidony said:
Here I'm referring to the child not the parent.

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Oh, i see. When i posted i posted on the assumption that the parents were finding it sexual.

I do see how some children may find it sexual. And if they don't know any better then that could interrupt their development in later life.

I stand corrected

TC.x

(Edited to add triger icon)

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Sammy said:

Oh, i see. When i posted i posted on the assumption that the parents were finding it sexual.

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I wonder if that's been a problem in this thread all along? I've been referring to how a child perceives things, but maybe I haven't been clear about that. I'm not suggesting that parents who spank are doing it for sexual reasons (I mean, there might be a few sicko parents out there, but I'm sure that's very uncommon). I'm just saying that some children will have sexual reactions to that (lots of testimonials to that effect on Nospank.net/101.htm ) and end up with a fixation on it in later life (hence, the adult spanking world). That's why I favor avoiding this type of discipline. Has my thread been confusing all along? It's definitely a complicated and taboo subject!

Sidony

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sidony said:

I wonder if that's been a problem in this thread all along? - Has my thread been confusing all along? It's definitely a complicated and taboo subject!

Sidony

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Well i can't speak for everyone else, but i was confused, hence the first post i made on the subject.

I don't see why the subject is so taboo, i think it is good to show people things that maybe they don't understand. For example, i never ever thought about the fact a child might find spanking sexual until you mentioned it, so now my whole view on spanking has been changed, although punishment in other ways is needed, but that's a different topic lol.

Tc. x

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Sammy said:
My dad used to punish me, His were a little more than just a spank, and no it wasn't sexual. But i turned out fine.[/b]

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Everyone's different. But even if it didn't have an affect on your sexuality, it doesn't mean it didn't have an effect on you.

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But i have never known anybody to spank a child like that, it usually entails grabbing the arm lifting the child and smacking them on the backside fully clothed.

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I have (known people who spanked the bare behind).

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I think children should be spanked if they are naughty, after all if someone said to a 6year old "Don't do that it's naughty" Do you think they'd listen?

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That's not all there is to the techniques of discipline. You don't just tell them not to do it. They do face a punishment for it. There are different techniques, but one involves putting them in a location for a certain amount of time. If they get up, the parent retrieves them wordlessly, puts them back, and starts the time over. If the child gets up again, the parent repeats. This is done over and over, until the child realizes the parent isn't going to give up, and the punishment will be seen through. This can take hours, and it may take a few times (although each time should take less time for the kid to "get it"), but it usually doesn't take long before the kid realizes that, once put in this spot, he's staying for the full punishment time. That said, that can be very tiring on the parents; I'm just telling how the technique works. I have a friend who has a better idea, IMO. She has an enclosed area where the kid can't go anywhere, there's nothing to do there, and the kid stays until the parent lets him out. She also pointed out the bathroom is not a good location, because the kids could turn on the water faucets and flood your house, LOL!

That said, again, I'm still reconsidering my stance. I am leaning towards the no spanking view, but I'm still not sure, as long as it isn't done excessively, to children too old or too young (Dr. Phil's going to have a parent who believes it's right to hit a 7-month-old child tomorrow), and done in anger or to humiliate.

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Sammy said:
Well i can't speak for everyone else, but i was confused, hence the first post i made on the subject.

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I'm slowly learning to word myself better...

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For example, i never ever thought about the fact a child might find spanking sexual until you mentioned it, so now my whole view on spanking has been changed, although punishment in other ways is needed, but that's a different topic lol.

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Hey I'm really glad to have had an effect! :-) Even though it's probably a small percentage of kids who have a sexual reaction to it, it can be bad for those who do! I didn't understand those sexual feelings at all, but I know they affected me and that I grew to have masochistic tendencies because of them. I'm not saying my life was ruined or anything, but it was hard for me to sort things out sexually. I was into B&D for a while (hm, that might fall under "too much information!"), but for someone with those tendencies it's hard not to go too far in and make it the ONLY type of sexual expression. In which case it ends up being not that intimate. It was hard for me to find balance. I don't want other kids to grow up and have the problems that I did, and that's one reason I wanted to talk about this. I strongly suspect that the adult spanking world exists because other people had the same reactions I did as a child. I think most people just write off that crowd as being a bunch of perverts, but I suspect they're just normal people whose sexual reactions were slightly different than the norm. Sexuality is complicated!!!

Sidony

What is perverted to one is acceptable or normal to another. I don't think S&M is perverted, and I know people into it. Some people enjoy their sexual fetishes and kinks, and that's perfectly fine. Changing sexual tastes is next to impossible, and I don't think anyone should seek therapy or try to change it if it isn't a problem for them. I think people should enjoy sex and fighting your desires means you'll decrease your sexual enjoyment, at least for a while, during your therapy or whatever. If you're not ok with it, of course, then you should go ahead and do that; I'm just saying no one should be forced to go through a period of not enjoying sex or decreasing their enjoyment, when the sex is consensual and between adults. (I'm not going to address older teens and sexuality in this post.) I believe treatments for any medical condition--including mental illness--should be the patient's choice. If that person is dangerous, they shouldn't be on the streets, restraints should be used when necessary, and perhaps certain medications and drugs should be used to calm them or make them safer for nurses and doctors to deal with, but I'm very concerned about the potential health problems that medications might cause, not to mention the side effects. I don't think anyone should have to live with side effects, such as fatigue or lower sex drive, if they don't want to. It's each person's body; it should be each person's decision.

But I'm getting off-topic. Spanking, physical abuse, mental abuse, seeing sex acts of any kind, the way people treat a person, experiences in life, etc., can all affect sexuality. Not all will affect everybody, but they all can affect different people. Some people might be turned on, turned off, interpret something in a way that leads to a kink or fetish, desire only "vanilla" sex, etc. Also, your parents reaction to your sexuality affects your own. Mine acted like it was dirty, and while I'm very educated on sexuality, there's a part of me that sees it as dirty (yet, that it's dirty is a turn-on to me).

Choosing to not spank a child does not mean that a parent is left with nothing but permissiveness. There are loads of more effective discipline techniques than spanking. Parents don't have to spank in order to teach children discipline, self control, respect for others, respect for self, etc.

The use of natural consequences such as .. if a child causes a disturbance at the 1st grade school lunch table which results in another student's milk to spill all over her and her lunch .. The natural consequence is that the guilty party has to accompany the milk splattered classmate to the nurse for cleanup. And then has to offer his/her lunch to replace the ruined lunch. And finally, has to obtain a mop and sponge to cleanup the mess. I guarentee you that a 1st grader who has to make amends in this manner will not likely cause another disturbance at lunch. Some would argue that it is necessary to give that child "a good spanking" to prevent another disturbance. But at what cost.

Having to accompany the milk splattered child offers the opportunity for the guilty party to see the full brunt of his/her actions on the other. Plus, the opportunity to appologize. The loss of lunch might be uncomfortable but is a "natural" consequence.

That is just one example of an alternative to spanking. And it does not equal no discipline nor does it equal permissiveness. I feel very strongly about this and the example I give actually happened - the guilty party was my son. He never did that again. Previous adventures in the lunch room resulted in the lunch staff sending him to the office and a phone call home. I finally got the behavior plan inserted into his I.E.P. and got the school staff to agree to this approach for the "next" time - because I knew there would be a next time. After the school staff took this approach with my son .. they were amazed and very pleased with the results. They take this approach often now.

sorry to ramble on - I just feel so strongly about encouraging adults who deal with children to be more open to treating them like the treasures they are by helping them grow into responsible and loving persons who do the right thing.

We don't teach math or reading by spanking (thank goodness because I stink at math). Why would we teach social responsibility by spanking.

What a great post, Peanuts! And that first paragraph...you said it better than I did!

Thanks. I hope people can see there are options.

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Maven said:
What is perverted to one is acceptable or normal to another. I don't think S&M is perverted, and I know people into it. Some people enjoy their sexual fetishes and kinks, and that's perfectly fine. Changing sexual tastes is next to impossible, and I don't think anyone should seek therapy or try to change it if it isn't a problem for them. I think people should enjoy sex and fighting your desires means you'll decrease your sexual enjoyment, at least for a while, during your therapy or whatever.

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Hey! I'm not suggesting that consenting adults shouldn't do what they want! I think sexual kinks are only problematic if they lead to a lack of intimacy (for example, if you get so far into role-playing that you feel like you lose a sense of being yourself in a relationship [my own experience]). I had some difficulty finding balance, but I'm definitely not trying to become a prude here. :P

I know lots of experiences will affect sexuality. I just think that spanking can be unnecessarily confusing for the small number of children who do have sexual reactions to it. There are enough problems already in childhood.

Sidony

Oh, I wasn't implying you'd said anything about consenting adults, sidony. I was just trying to be clear on my stance. I apologize if I came across as attacking you.

Did anyone watch Montel today? It was about spanking! Well, really, it was about parents who differed on discipline, with one parent being pro-corporal punishment, and the other being pro-non-violence. I felt Montel didn't do a great job, though, at giving reasons to pro-spankers to abandon that type of punishment. He talked of "respect" and "love," and that's great, but it doesn't really address pro-spankers' beliefs. For one thing, they usually consider it showing love for a child to spank them, in that they're teaching them to keep safe and to be respectable in society.

One of most disappointing opportunities Montel missed was when one father asked (and this might not be an exact quote), "When you put the three-year-old in the corner, and he runs away, what do you do, then?" Montel said that's what the female doctor or expert (whatever she was) he introduced next was going to address, but she didn't. I think it would have helped if she'd answered his question. I'm not saying the pro-spankers would have been convinced, but at least address their questions, and maybe viewers at home who weren't convinced before might re-think their positions.

Another thing they didn't really do was, give alternatives to spanking. Some of the parents mentioned their non-violent methods, but only briefly, and there were no details how to handle the child disobeying the order to stay put until the punishment is completed.

Montel kept saying things like (this is definitely not an exact quote, but it's the gist of the message), "If you hug your child, he'll know he's loved and won't be afraid of showing affection. He'll respect you and when you tell him not to do something, he'll listen." I think there's more to it than that. Yes, teaching a child to respect you is important, and as they grow older, that should make it much more likely they'll obey you, or at least consider your words. But when they're still learning, they will do more of what one of the pro-spanking fathers said, which is that they'll test the boundaries, and see what they can get away with.

I'd also like to know techniques for disciplining pre-teens and teens, especially if you've made parenting mistakes and now your teen is unruly. A lot of people made mistakes, or their children fell into the wrong crowd. As much as we'd like to believe a child taught to respect their parents will never fall into drugs and whatnot, sometimes, they meet the wrong person and make mistakes. Plus, every child's different; the way one responds to events in his life may be different than another's response to the same events. Additionally, as horrible as it is, a child can be respectful and never get in trouble, then an older child or adult does something terrible to the child, and that child's world is shaken. That child may lose self-esteem and make mistakes. Obviously, this takes more than discipline to correct, but some discipline is necessary to help the child get back on track, if possible.

Anyway, my point is, the show disappointed me. They didn't address spanking and sexuality at all. However, the female doctor (I think she was a psychiatrist, specifically) who spoke in the last ten minutes (and I missed about the last four or five minutes, when Montel spoke) said something really good, but I can't remember what it was, darn it!