why do people pretend porn isn't the problem?

Violence is violence, it already has a definition. Just because you've been desensitized to it, that doesn't mean it isn't violence. But no, not all porn is violent.

But what about rape, or murder ...which is socially acceptable to watch on TV... doesn't that sound a little sick to you? Why is it OK to show rape or murder on TV, when it's something - I hope - we would agree is wrong in real life? What part of us is that trying to appeal to exactly? Do you not think that being exposed to that kind of thing influences your thinking?

Also, we can judge people, as we all do (including yourself). This idea that we shouldn't pass judgement on people is a bit childish to me. It's like someone saying "hey... I'm going to do whatever I want regardless of whether it's socially acceptable or not, and if you judge me then you're a bad person". Or... "Oh, I cheated on my boyfriend with 3 other guys, but don't judge me because I'm bipolar and I was manic at the time". That's not helpful at all. And this kind of thinking is why we now live in a society where many don't have morals, values, a sense of self. It's all about me, what I want and how I can get it. And I personally think that's just going to make people even more sick.

For me, it's a more of a personal thing. I monitor myself... I examine my conscience (it does have an issue). I ask myself about the pain that porn has caused (I think it has caused me personal pain). It's my issue, I own it.

Thank you for passing judgement on me sooo freely.

I am active in BDSM. My partner is a Sadist. I am a RACK player. My fetishes would absolutely disgust you. But their mine. Their accepted in my community & I'm sorry you feel that way.
I'm sorry I don't "fit in your description" of acceptable.
I LOVE IT!!

The way you choose to live your life is entirely up to you... it really doesn't concern me. I'm more interested in how these kinds of things might shape someone as a person, or what they might say about the person engaging in them. For example, why is it that you're into BDSM, but to others it's considered to be disgusting? And I don't think it's as simple as just a preference thing.

Anyway, it's nothing personal... I don't even know you to care that much about what you do.

You have made it personal by telling me that what I enjoy...is disgusting & not accepting.

Obviously you do not care to even view the other side or learn, search, ask questions, discover about something you don't understand. To me I see this philosophy as extremely narrow minded & sad.

I'm not asking you to accept anything. I'm asking you to learn & understand. To tolerate others. Dig deeper. That's all.
But I know for some, that's asking a lot.

Well, now you're being judgemental and implying:

1. I don't care
2. I am closed-minded
3. I am intolerant

I'm not going to get upset about it, because I know those things aren't true.

The reality is, I haven't said very much at all. And I don't believe I said anything against you personally as I've always spoken in general terms.

Like I said, I'm not interested in whether the act itself is good or bad ...whether it's BDSM or violent porn or whatever. That would be a pointless discussion. I'm interested in what influence that might have on a person, or why a person might be attracted to that.

When I first left home and was struggling to come to terms with sex and sexuality, I visited a few pornographic movie theaters and subscribed to Playboy magazine ... This went on for about 3 years.

But then I came across several news articles about how so many young runaways turn to prostitution and drugs and the adult entertainment industry because they'd grown up being physically, sexually and emotionally abused and thought that this was all they were good for.

Many had left the industry and gone through their healing and recovery processes and spoke about how they'd gone from one exploitation (leaving their abusive homes) only to be abused, preyed upon and exploited by others (those involved in trafficking, prostitution and the adult entertainment industry).

Needless to say, that was certainly a whole other kind of eye opener for me, and I decided that I didn't want to be one more person who'd derived pleasure out of another person's pain, suffering, exploitation and abuse, so I cancelled my subscription to Playboy and never set foot into another X-Rated theater again.

Since I don't know how to discern who is and who isn't a willing participant in this industry, and being a survivor of abuse myself, I simply cannot in good conscience watch something that very well may have someone being further exploited and abused by some trafficker, pimp, john, or polished professional that runs an adult entertainment industry or establishment.

That's all I have to say about that!

Hazn,
In your first post you stated "Violence is violence....& I'm desensitized to it."

This I have a problem with Bec I'm not sure of your definition of violence in relation to the OP.
Violence that results in a crime I understand. Very well. I am NOT desensitized to it.
If you are speaking of violence in porn I'm also confused.
When porn is viewed, as with many others, it's viewed in 2D. I am not standing there, nor do I know what happens before the camera turns on. Is this a prearranged scene? Are these people getting paid to "act." Are these professionals? Amateurs? A home made production? Is there a verbal or written agreement beforehand? I don't know. I also don't know what happens after the camera is turned off. I don't jump to conclusions.

As far as what is broadcast on network tv I would think that would be in the hands of the producers & marketers. What will the market accept? What will the market bear? Again I think that's in the hands of the executives knowing that people have the power to turn that subject off. Just like porn.

The analogy of "I cheated on my boyfriend with 3 guys & don't blame me Bec I was manic.." In my humble opinion is a blanket judgement. Childish? Maybe.
But I don't know the background of this person. I don't know the details, the why questions are not answered & I just don't have enough information to say...yup, you're wrong!
Yes, society would state that hearing this info would conclude that this is a bad person.

I don't like to make fast judgement calls, there's too much gray area.
I try hard now not to practice black & white thinking.

You say that the way I choose to live my life is up to me & yes that is true. But you also say that it doesn't concern you when actually...it does.
Because In the next breath you ask how this may shape a person or what it might say about the person engaging in them. Ummmm hello?
Do you honestly wanto know why I practice BDSM? I don't think so, Bec the next line you state I'm not allowed to say ..."it's a preference." That's too simple. But I guess you already knew that.
If you'd really like to know why I entered into the world of BDSM & made it my home, you or anyone can pm me & I'll answer your questions in great detail. BUT, my answers, I'm sure, are totally different from the next person you ask.

I think this is why I'm taking offense to this. You state in the next post you speak in generalizations. Yes, but porn is such a vast space to make generalizations about. There's so many different avenues & most here, are lumping porn into the "it's bad" category when what most are doing are clicking a button & viewing it.
I'm saying that there are people out there that have many many different tastes & fetishes. I do not understand them all, but I don't turn my nose up & say wow you're gross for liking that or that is disgusting! I'm trying to learn about the inner workings of a person & what has created this. What do most people generalize as their answer in porn being violent?
"Well they're doing this Bec of their abusive past or MH issues." Yes this may be this case for some, I agree, but I am guessing not for all.

In June 2012, the author P. D. James was making 1.34 million a wk in book sales. Some would call her trilogy soft, fluff erotica & it was somewhat trashed in the BDSM community Bec of its many inaccuracies. But there was a reason for these sales.
People are curious. Is it something the market could bare? Obviously. Was it considered violent??? There's that question again.
I guess that depends on the person reading it.
Everyone has a different perspective & I want them to have it. Not shame them for having it.

violence - behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.

Also, I didn't mean you personally as I can't possibly know what your sexual preferences are. That's my mistake for using "you're". Apologies for that.

OK you might not be engaging in it yourself, but do you think it will have an influence on you? Let me give you an example. Child pornography is illegal, and rightly so (I hope we can both agree on that). It's wrong. But what about watching Anime child pornography? Since it's not real, is that OK? And, more importantly, do you not think that watching such content is going to have an influence on your sexual preferences?

I'm not asking what the market thinks. I'm asking what you think.

I'm not making fast judgements, but sure I am making judgements. We make judgements every single day based on our interactions with people. You yourself have made some judgements about me. That's normal, I don't have a problem with that. I don't like it when people use the whole "don't judge me" line in order to make out that someone is a bad person. That statement is a judgement in itself. Anyway, I hope we can move past this whole judgement thing... it's really not what this thread is about and as far as I can tell, there's not as much judgement going on as you're suggesting. Did anyone say you're disgusting?

OP has concerns about pornography and the impact it has on people and their relationships... and as far as I can tell its a valid concern. But it seems like others here are trying to invalidate how she feels about it.

I wouldn't be OK with my partner watching pornography, but that's me. Is that right or wrong? No, but it's something many people would agree with me on. And of course, many would disagree. There are people on this forum who are OK with their partners sleeping with others and keeping things open... does that mean I have to be also? No.

The question I'm asking is, is the behavior helpful, is it healthy. We would all agree that having high self-esteem is healthy. We all would agree that having self-respect is healthy. Is having your partner call you dirty names in bed going to increase your self-esteem and self-respect, or decrease it? I'm not saying you do these things, it's just an example. What we watch influences who we become and how we think. As does how we behave. And I'm asking a question, what do YOU think?

Absolutely everyone has a different perspective, and OP has expressed hers... nothing wrong with that.

So you're asking if I'm viewing violent porn does in influence me? Honestly no. Arouse, yes. But that's me.

I understand you're connection between illegal child pornography & anime. Honestly I don't know that much about anime except when it first exploded in cartoons in America. I'd really have to research into that question & im not avoiding a question, but does a cartoon have an age? I've seen anime type porn of little red riding hood & the wolf....not sure of the age.
Can lines get blurred for some viewers? Absolutely.

Does watching porn influence my sexual preferences? Really I don't watch much porn lol, but I don't feel it has an influence. But my sexual preferences have evolved as I've gotten older & more tantric based influences. I'm saying that if I watch a lot of gay porn does that make me wanto experience gay sex, as far as the word preference. For me, no.

I understand the OP view. That if one person watches porn & it upsets the other partner it drives a wedge between them. The person watching might feel miss understood & goes back to watching porn. The other partner feels left out. The problem is not solved.
They need to have a serious discussion about their sex life & communicate with each other. For some that can be very difficult Bec just the subject of sex can be taboo. Asking for what you want & having a frank discussion can be....weird for some. So they land in a stalemate. They need to communicate more.

Does using dirty language during sex cause a lack of self esteem? Again, some will answer differently. What language is used between my partner & myself, if someone viewing didn't know us, would view it as gross or violent. But between my partner & I, I know & understand the message that is being conveyed, the power & beauty of it. But that's between us as partners.

Therein lies the problem with porn Bec what one sees is different from what another another sees.

I truly do understand the gravity of this discussion when it comes to porn & I'm glad people r voicing their opinions. I think it's very important & it hits very close to home knowing one of my kids (12yrs old) has viewed porn.

Fair enough, I understand that you believe it doesn't have any influence on your own sexual preferences, etc. Though I personally find it hard to accept due to the nature of pornography, and the intent behind watching it in the first place.

There's quite a bit of research in this area anyway if you want to read more into this.

Yeah you're right, everyone sees things differently... and we all have different morals, values, etc. But it seems to me like in many cases we've become blind to some of the negative messages we get from porn, TV, music, etc. And the fact that we don't see this things as negative, proves we've been influenced by them.

For example, forget about your own sexual preferences for a minute, do you think a man shooting their load all over a woman's face (very common in pornography) is an act of respect, or disrespect? What message do you think that gives concerning women?

I do read the research into porn & how it's changed, but I also read about sexual philosophy, sexual psychology etc & how these changes are influencing us as humans. Why is this evolving & where will it lead us.

Yes I do believe we are in some ways like lemmings & following each other. I saw it in the fashion trend of males wearing their pants very low with their underwear sticking out. When I see teenagers wearing their clothes like that I wonder if they know the origins of what that means?
So yes we're heavily influenced by society & must stay on guard for it.

Your examples of facials? I know the answer you'd like to hear. A black or white one. I have too many questions to give you before I can tell you whether it's respectful or not.
How about the very popular pgasm, ball stomping (very popular with dommes ....what does that say about respecting men?) dollification, queening, toilet play etc etc etc.
All these things are very popular in porn.
How I view these will be differently from others.

I'm not particularly fond of the idea of someone taking a peepee in my mouth, crushing my balls with their heels, or whipping me like I'm a horse or something. And it's not really the kind of relationship dynamic I want to enable to be honest. I don't feel the need to do that to someone else, either. But I understand others do do this. I just wonder what the reasoning behind it is and whether it's based on healthy psychology or unhealthy psychology (if that makes sense).

Anyway, I think we've probably gone as far as we can with this. I hope we both understand our different points of view a little better.

Apologies if you found anything I said offensive, that certainly wasn't my intention.

No way, I thought this was a great discussion!

I just wanted to add in, before someone gets the wrong idea about poor P.D. James....old English woman who wrote novels like 'The Children of Men' and has an abundance of talent and skill.

I believe you are referring to E.L James. Young English author who wrote the Fifty Shades trilogy, with a very disturbed idea of what BDSM is, and the writing ability of a fifth grader.

Yes!!! Lol. Thank you for the correction & I think 5th grade is too high!

I have to admit, I'm lightening up about sex a little (I grew up in a very conservative church). Sex still seems kinds of weird and embarrassing, and fun, and sexy and exciting and private. I have very conservative attitudes towards morality and sex and affairs, and yet, I kinda like some porn, even though it's a guilty pleasure, and sometimes I think I'm done w/ it because I think it may have harmed me in some ways....

Anyway... I obviously have a lot of conflicted and complex thoughts about porn and it's place in my life and in our society.

But, as my example of driving vs porn demonstrates, I think it's not quite correct to see considerations about the existence of porn as just being a matter of considering the problems it causes. I think it's more about the fact that sex and ideas about morality are very important to us.

Speaking of "That" book series....



But getting back on the topic. Porn isn't the problem. That's like saying that alcohol causes Alcoholism. It doesn't. It's not the alcohol that causes alcoholism, but either a genetic predisposition, a bout of MI that may drive a person to self medicate with it, or any number of other reasons, really. To blame the outcome of a problem isn't the answer. However, it didn't stop America from outright blaming it nonetheless.

The American People felt so strongly against alcohol, so sure that it was the "root of all evil", that at one point they managed to get the sale and distribution of it barred nation wide for a while, aka the Prohibition. It didn't stop people from going underground and creating Speak Easies, where you could drink to your heart's content, and hoarding various bottles of alcohol in their homes. Eventually, the government realized what foolishness the Prohibition was, realizing people will go ahead and drink regardless of what happens, and it was better to control the sale and distribution, taxing it to help feed nationwide budget. Thus, Prohibition was repealed.

The same can be said of Porn and those addicted to it. It's not the porn in and of itself that is the problem, but the people who abuse the usage of it to the point of addiction for whatever reason. It's not going to be banned and if it were, hypothetically, sales of it will still happen underground, in various "Speak Easies" for it.

Thus, it's better and more productive to treat the cause of the addiction, rather than ban and make illegal what one might be addicted to.

Luv it! George Takei is brilliant. Thanks!

Maybe then we should also make every prescription drug over the counter, because the problem is the person, not the drug

Comparing it to the prohibition isn't very logical, and alcohol has a direct effect on a person's mind. Porn has an effect that's creeping and most people don't notice directly when they fall into an addiction because 'everyone's doing it', as I said before.
Most people don't know the cause of their addiction. Maybe they blocked it out of their mind, and don't want to face it. We need to stop pretending like porn is only a problem for very mentally unstable people.
Mentally healthy people can abuse porn if they are going through a rough time, too. And most of them certainly do not want to be seen as someone having a problem and to admit it. And they certainly do not want to seek help, because they think the problem isn't a problem.
You make it sound like you have to be severely troubled beforehand in order to become addicted to it, which isn't the case.

You could apply youor logic to pretty much everything. Illegal drugs, guns, etc etc.

Consider this. X is an action that people perform in the real world, and on film. When people watch people doing X, they tend to think "wow, I guess X is acceptable... maybe I should try it myself!"

Basically, by watching people do X on film, it changes our brains, it changes our attitudes towards X.

Should we ban all X's from film? Should we ban all films that contain X?

Y's are also actions that people perform in real life, and on film. When people watch people doing Y, they tend to think "wow, I guess Y is acceptable... maybe I should try it myself!"

Basically, by watching people do Y on film, it changes our brains, it changes our attitudes towards Y.

But the difference between X and Y is that X is morally neutral, while Y could offend some people's ideas about morality.

Should we ban all Y's from film? Should we ban all films that contain Y?

What are some examples of X's and what are some examples of Y's?

I see and respect where you're going, but the X's and Y's are a little abstract. Compare instead a vintage 1970's porn loop depicting painless, mutually-satisfying sex between consenting and fully-pubed partners with modern exploitative porn depicting violence, epidemiologically dangerous sexual practices, domination, humiliation and/or or sadism, or, in the nuclear option, a snuff film.

As propaganda, yes, these media are conditioning viewers as to the appropriateness and cultural acceptability of the depicted practices. If watching it turns them on, you're selectively triggering sexual stimulation cues in their psyches, and someone who pleasures themselves to images of grisly mutilation is lost forever, but it doesn't seem reasonable to condemn the entire spectrum of 'porn', from well-meaning copulation by mutual consent to a bloodsoaked orgy with a crime-scene-cleanup bill and a body count.

Your prescription drug - OTC drug example is pretty illogical. Many drugs have some pretty major interactions with each other. If I'm on Prozac, but then I decide I need some Tramadol, well...if they are all OTC and without a prescription necessary, it could get pretty ugly.

It has been shown, in many cases, that making something less available does not help. In fact, the harder it is for people to get things that are addictive/stimulating, the more they will try to get them. Like during the Prohibition. Or with illegal drugs. Or, for some reason, guns. Even consider our country's problems with sex. Abstinence-only education has been proven to not work. It is not the thing, it is the people. I don't mean that in a bad way. It's not that we are severely troubled beforehand. We are human. And there are numerous factors that come into play. Addictive personalities, mental illness, conditioning, social factors, neurological receptors, etc.

Maybe it's that whole 'the less we can have it, the more we want it'. That, 'we want what we can't have'. Who knows. Either way, the more we blame a thing like porn, alcohol, food, etc, for our issues, the less likely we will take responsibility and be able to help ourselves. I could blame something, let's say sex, until I am blue in the face...doesn't change my problems. Without sex, they'd still be my problems. You know why? Because it was that way with alcohol. Just like it was the drugs before that. And food before that. And then once the thing that was causing my issues left, I moved on to something else.

I think you might be missing the point. I'm not asking anyone to condemn anything.

I'm asking people to think about the real differences between X's and Y's. And it's not abstract if people choose their own X's and Y's to plug in and compare.

I may very well have missed the point.