What if you're not tired by 5am? Every day....

I've always been a bit of an "owl". I find I do my best work/creative stuff late at night. I'm useless first thing in the morning. For the last 4-5 years, 2am was the latest I'd go to bed, but recently, since I split with my gf, it's gotten later. Now it's anywhere between 3am-5am. On occasion I don't bother going to bed at all. There does't seem any point as the kids start stirring and the morning rush begins. At weekends and holidays, I'll happily stay asleep until midday (although it does make me groggy when I do that).

So many people have said depression disrupts their sleep patterns and they can't get to sleep or wake up repeatedly but I just don't get tired until stupid o'clock. Is this normal? I'm sure it must be stressing the hell out of my body but I just can't get to sleep any earlier. If I went to bed at say, 10 or 11pm, I know I'd just lay there for hours so I'd rather be up doing stuff. I'm considering asking my GP for sleeping pills but I'm not sure they should be mixed with antidepressants or with alcohol.

It's 4:50am here, so I guess I'd better go to bed!

Yes, it's normal...and yes, it's the depression. It's basically your body slowly switching to nocturnal sleeping patterns - which, btw, will completely screw with our health if oyu let it go too long.

The night's turning into my day and the day's turning into my night. It's almost 11:30pm here and I am starting to buzz and feel more alert. I can feel it's going to be another late night. It's been 5am, 5:30am and 4:30am the last three nights. I've also started to eat late at night. Everything's going haywire

I know the feeling its 2am here and I will more the likely not be going to sleep till like 6 maybe 7 the reason i dont sleep is more then likely different to yours but i can understand why you feel like you do as im the same my "day" starts about 4pm and my "night" starts at about 5am but it will get easier as time goes on

I got to bed at 5am. Fell asleep by about 6am. Was up for 7:45am for the morning school run. I'm wide awake atm but undoubtedly will crash later. I'm seeing my GP on Friday about meds. I really need some support with this as it's impacting family life

OOOOOH. I've had that before. It's going to be REALLY hard, but if you want to reset your sleep patterns, there's a way to do it. It takes about a month and you have to be vigilantly rigid about things. It helps if you have a roommate or loved one that can help you with waking up by certain times. It's going to be the hardest part.

First, regardless of how tired you are, force yourself to stay awake during the day. Go be active. Get social. The more you move and interact, the less likely it is you'll fall asleep. For the first week do everything you can to keep yourself from sleeping every couple of days. If you start on Sunday, don't go to bed until monday, and only allow yourself no more than 7 hours of sleep. If you feel like you're going to pass out during the day, take an hour nap, and make sure you wake up. Each night of sleep, set your clock to wake you at a decent hour in the morning - say something between 8:30 and 9:30 am. 10:30 in the morning is the latest I'd give it, as that's pushing the boundary into waking up in noonday.

After a week of this, you can ease off the forcing yourself to be awake, but increase the level of activity you're doing during the day. Maybe go for a jog or walk in the evening, and keep active. You also need to be making sure you're eating healthy. I know this will be more difficult with the depression, but you gotta force yourself to get out if even just to keep moving. Do this for a week, keeping your alarm set to the same decent hour and making sure you're laying down for bed the same time every night. You may want to lay down between 10 and 11 p.m. No later than midnight, if you're getting up around 9.

For the third and fourth week, keep your activity, and get an evening routine together. Getting the same activities done right before you lay down for bed will train your mind to relate sleep with the evening activities.

The basic concept here is to first force your body out of its current sleep cycle by removing the sleep altogether. Then, allow sleep to return but only in the evening. You reinforce this by putting a limit on your sleep and always waking up at the same time. The exercise encourages production of seratonin, which will keep you awake during the day, and you'll be tired come night time. The evening routine cements the evening-means-sleep connection as a final tactic.

I am naturally nocturnal. Go to bed between 4am and 8am usually and sleep all day. The only problem is when I need to make phone calls/run errands during 'normal' daytime hours. But working the night shift is fine, indeed they pay me more to work then and usually it is quieter during those hours.

I has DSPS which means I have a delayed pattern even if I'm fine. I even had a late pattern as a baby!

But yea, depression can cause sleep patterns to shift, and the way I see it, no one has really investigated the link between sleep and depression, which I find really weird. It's like they think, sleep, thats not an interesting thing.. lets focus on something else... If there are studies they sure have not trickled down into mainstream knowledge.

I want to know WHY depression causes sleep issues of different kinds!

I KNOW already why I have DSPS, a few years ago it was discovered it is a weak or lacking enzyme, what resets your bodyclock every day. But that can't hold true for depression....

Anyway, since I am DSPS, I actually have to sleep odd times, or I will make myself sick. If I tried to keep a normal schedule I would cause harm to myself.

Sleep is weird.

@medkev13 Thank you so much for such a detailed sleep plan. It seems daunting because I'm pretty reclusive atm (and getting worse) but I'm going to enlist some good friends to help get me out of the house and keep me awake during the day. I have to do something as I know this can't continue indefinitely. Hopefully, my GP will also be able to help when I see him on Friday!

It's that or I'm going to have to take a leaf out of Yoda's book and get a night job.

I have heard of DSPS but I don't think I fit that particular bill. I'm just on the nocturnal side and having a bit of a dip.

Yeah, I was fortunate to suffer the sleep flip right around New year's. Parties and socializing helped. You'll get through it. No worries ^_^

I know how you feel :/

Hi, I just joined.

Anyway, I've had the worst sleep problems imaginable for years now alone the same lines. A couple of things I've discovered in my researching the problem is that low adrenal function [called adrenal fatigue by the alternative health community] is at the root of my sleep issues. I've had the thing of not being able to get to sleep until 4, 5, 6 or even 7 a.m., and then only sleeping for about an hour and a half, and that was it for the day. Sleep meds absolutely DON'T work on me so I use amino acids, and just got another supplement that blocks high cortisol levels as that's often the reason you can't sleep to save yourself.

I also started taking a fairly high dose of melatonin to help reset my circadian rhythm so I could get to sleep earlier. It hasn't been perfect, but it's helped.

If I have a beer late in the day, I'll get to sleep for an hour, and then wake up and be unable to fall back to sleep to save myself. My naturopath told me it's because my cortisol levels rise when the alcohol is metabolized. A rise in cortisol levels wakes you up--it's supposed to go up in the morning so you can get going. Mine goes up late in the afternoon so I can't sleep.

Also, with adrenal fatigue, the hypothalamus/ituitary/adrenal axis malfunctions so you can't get to sleep, or stay asleep. I think that is at the core of my sleep issues overall.

I've had the same type of thing for years now, and it makes life utterly miserable!

Here's a couple of things I've learned in researching insomnia that might apply to your case as well:

--Not being tired at night indicates high cortisol levels which is why you can't sleep to save yourself. I have extremely high cortisol at night--I did a cortisol saliva test last winter, and my nighttime levels were 3 times the maximum number--and it was all I could do to stay awake to finish the test!! I can only imagine what they must be on the nights I can't sleep to save myself!!

--Cortisol problems are assocated with what's known in the alternative health community as adrenal fatigue. There are supplements that block cortisol, but I don't know if I'm allowed to mention them, nor do I know if you should mix them with meds--I'm not on meds, just supplements as I can't tolerate them.

--Your circadian rhythm is out of wack as well--I've been through the not being able to get to sleep until 8 a.m. in the past, and came across a video by a doctor talking about using melatonin to reset it. It's helped--not perfect, but most nights I'm asleep by 1:30 a.m.

Alcohol, after it clears your body causes your cortisol levels to rise according to what my naturopath was telling me recently. If I have a beer in the evening, I'll get to sleep for an hour, wake up and that will be it for the night. If I have a beer in the afternoon, it doesn't seem to be as much of a problem.

Anyway, I hope that gives you some avenues to pursue in figuring out what's going on........

Sorry for the double post. When it didn't post, I assumed I had made a mistake and redid it......

Thank you LucyG, everything you've said is very interesting. My doc put me on zopiclone which has worked like a dream. But I'm coming to the end of my prescription and I know without them, I'll go back to being sleepless so maybe I should look into cortisol levels. In fact maybe I should have an all over health check and do cholesterol blah blah blah and see where I am with everything. I also know I drink too much and too late so that's probably also a factor. But thank you for taking the the time (double) post!