[pachyderm]

According to news reports, today is the start of the "trial" of Jerry Sandusky. It is called a trial because that is what it is, a trial or test of strength, to see which side, the prosecution, or the defense, is the "stronger". It is not called an inquiry, because an inquiry would be an attempt to learn the truth of what happened and why, and what might be done to correct any social and individual problems found. A trial has the advantage of appearing to do something (punish someone), thus satisfying for the moment the anxieties of society. The fact that the punishment does little or nothing to permanently solve any problems is swept aside in the rush to "do something".



That is what I have to say on the subject.

[lynn P.]

First I'll say I respect your views Pachy. I wish expects knew more about pedophiles and how to treat them - so far there isn't successful treatment. I understand punishment doesn't do anything to make the perpetrator less dangerous but at least it keeps them away and may give the victims / families some closure/satisfaction. So far Sandusky seems unfazed and maintains he didn't do anything inappropriate - that's maddening. I hope with his high priced lawyers, they won't discount the victims stories. Pedophiles scar and steal so much from their victims, so I think punishment is appropriate - I would be for punishment and trying to help the perpetrator so they don't re-offend.

Since there's been past threads on this subject, I'll reserve my passionate opinion. I'm a mom so I have strong feelings about this. I believe in empowering children and I wish parents would wise up and not be so flattered when an authority figure takes a liking to their child.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by lynn P.

So far Sandusky seems unfazed and maintains he didn't do anything inappropriate - that's maddening.

Do we have the facts in the situation yet? Are we likely to get them, considering the nature of a trial? Making it a contest, with the threat of punishment in the end, makes it more likely that the prosecution will exaggerate the evil nature of the defendant, and make the defense more likely to try to obscure the facts. If both sides saw the end result as potentially being a healing process, both might be more likely to face facts.

[lynn P.]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Do we have the facts in the situation yet? Are we likely to get them, considering the nature of a trial? Making it a contest, with the threat of punishment in the end, makes it more likely that the prosecution will exaggerate the evil nature of the defendant, and make the defense more likely to try to obscure the facts. If both sides saw the end result as potentially being a healing process, both might be more likely to face facts.

I understand how lawyers and trials can seem like a competition with both sides embellishing their claims. No I don't think anyone has all the facts. I agree with what you said to a point. There are so many claims and victims in this case - I don't know how they can all be untrue. This is more than just sex - its an assault on this soul of the minor IMO.

Its illegal for an adult to have sex with a minor, therefore a crime is dealt the punishment ...jail time. It would be great if someone could fix this and yes healing is good. If someone kills another person, they go to jail - is that appropriate punishment? I'm thinking personally for a minute - if an adult sexually assaults my child - I would want healing, for the person to go to jail and to get help if there was a treatment. I heard on the news - the jury is questionable - one is connected to Penn State and one is an in-law to one of the witnesses.
Most people have an opinion as to whether he had sex with minors - what do you think?

Unfortunately there are some people who think its fine to have sex with minors - which is why the NAMBLA association exists and why some people go overseas to countries, that don't have strong laws against this. How do you think this problem can be solved?

[unaluna]

there is a good article in the nytimes.com this past weekend, in the magazine section, about similar situations in a ny private school and how they were handled.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by lynn P.

Most people have an opinion as to whether he had sex with minors - what do you think?

I simply do not know. From the relatively little I have heard, it appears at a minimum that he had what I would call a pathological need to be "friendly" to children -- in a way that met his needs more than the children's. How far it went beyond that is a matter of fact -- and getting to facts would be easier, I think, if so much fear were not involved -- fear of what happens if you tell the absolute truth.

Unfortunately there are some people who think its fine to have sex with minors - which is why the NAMBLA association exists and why some people go overseas to countries, that don't have strong laws against this. How do you think this problem can be solved?

Again, I don't know. My impression is that the NAMBLA people are good at fooling themselves (or should I say lying?) about their motives. On the other hand, making an enormous sky-is-falling deal about whatever happened cannot be good for the children themselves, in how they see what happened to them. What they see is a bunch of adults in a tizzy about how to handle it; how can they be expected to handle it better?

[di meliora]

A trial does not prove someone committed a crime, only what the factfinder (judge or jury) believes he/she did. A favorable verdict often is bought by the wealthy.

[lynn P.]

On the other hand, making an enormous sky-is-falling deal about whatever happened cannot be good for the children themselves, in how they see what happened to them. What they see is a bunch of adults in a tizzy about how to handle it;

Since I'm a mother, I can say this is one of the worst fears we have - someone assaulting our child. I agree it has to be handled where the child doesn't feel at fault but it also shouldn't be brushed off as minor. Needs to be balance of 'too much reaction or discounting the deed where the child feels invalidated'. I watched an Oprah show -all 200 men had suffered childhood assault and most of them never told their parents. They were literally crying and expressing what this did to them - so their reaction wasn't from how their parents responded.

Since Sandusky has money and probably the best lawyers - I really worry this will go totally in his favor. I tend to think he did something illegal since all 50 can't be lying. For me being a parent - I compare myself to a mother tiger when there's a threat to my children. People just can't steal that away from a child and get away with it. I'm fairly sure a witness saw him having sex. I feel men have a very difficult time admitting they were sexually assaulted by a man, therefore they all can't be lying...IMO. Although I have a good intuition my opinion isn't fact - we'll have to see how this unfolds.

[KathyM]

I think parents need to take responsibility and stop being so gullible and vulnerable to pedophiles. If they can't afford the time, energy, and money it takes to raise a child....don't have one. Passing them off to strangers to raise is extremely dangerous. I'm skeptical of ALL charities because those charitable workers sometimes feel entitled to "take a little for themselves" - be it money, services, or "pleasure."

From the time my son was able to converse with me, he knew he could tell me anything...ANYTHING...because he knew his welfare was my first concern. If a Sandusky type ever did that to my son, I would have been on his doorstep the following morning - with plyers in hand. By afternoon, he'd be ready to join the children's choir.

My heart and prayers go out to those victims. I know it is gutwrenching for them to relive their nightmares, especially with the media and everyone else hungry for all the lurid details.

[lynn P.]

I heard a reporter read what one of the victims said when he told his mother and school counselor - all they did was go on, how great a person Sandusky is. Basically they discounted his experience which is so common. Pedophiles is cases like this are powerful and very charming - they win over the parents and the whole community. This is the groundwork for what they do next, once they've been given blind trust.

Is this was one singular case I may wonder but there's a line of victims here. I also blame some of the parents - I wouldn't trust my child sleeping over at the coaches house....what BS! It must really hurt when your parents don't believe when you do what you're supposed to do.....tell.

[pachyderm]

Since posting this originally I have heard a bit more about the testimony of specific events told by specific people. If these are true, then it does seem to me that Sandusky did commit crimes. I still want to wait for the other side of the story (if any) before making a judgement.

This still does not affect what I said originally, which is to question the entire process of having "trials" to judge the truthfulness of what anyone says, or to provide a cure for the "disease". These trials are too much unthinking reactions to emotions and not enough "wise-minded" evaluations or prescriptions for solutions. Reacting emotionally does not necessarily provide good answers to difficult situations -- when our emotions are driving us, we cannot always think straight. I find it bizarre (i.e. frightening) when these socially-approved processes actually are themselves expressions of irrationality.

[PurpleFlyingMonkeys]

This trial is very upsetting to me, i really hope it doesnt end the same as the woman, cant remember her name, who took her daughters life in florida. But i wasnt at that trial nor at the sandusky trial, there are many things im sure the media added on to or took away from the trials. Learning the details is far too triggering for me. But something good can come from these trials, it temporarily promotes awareness in these cases. Our judicial system is a joke, the only thing positive i can see coming from it is openjng the eyes of others. I pray he gets what he deserves, but how many times has the judicial system worked in our favor?

Trigger

I was molested by my substitute teacher and spoke out, we went to the police. Know how many days he spent in jail? One. Just one. However, it created awareness. He had a history of pedophillia, but they hired him without doing a background check. From my case, it created a new law, named after me and him. Stating in my state no sub or teacher could be hired without background checks, and hundreds of children came forward after. I contacted a lawyer a couple years back who was moved by the case, knew exactly who i was and told me how much that case helped our state. A lawyer was in awe of me, a woman with no self worth, who spent life in abuse. Because of the awareness my pain brought forward.

One of these days we are bound to find a way to help these creeps. Imo, its a lack of compassion that allows these people to do such horrific things. I can only imagine not being able to feel compassion, and it is an illness much like others. Hopefully finding a way to help these people mentally so there will be less victims, but we are far from that. So until then...

I try not to get worked up over cases like sandusky. Where there is evil lurking, there is always the light waiting to come through, there will be a silver lining in this evil cloud, no matter the verdict. Hes worldwide known for what he has done, he certainly wont have a walk in the park no matter which direction it goes. And i can only hope it helps others suffering come into the light and stop what is being done.

[Crew]

I hope this child molester gets the MAX to send a message to ALL the sport star coaches on every level.

My fear about it is, MONEY often PAYS for the Crime! From my experience MONEY played a role in not convicting Ritual Abuse Crimes.

Let's just hope not,
fingers crossed
Crew
with prayers to those that were hurt, may they be able to live there lives the way they wanted to. I hope they find peace.

[lynn P.]

I'm wondering will the jury selection be a way to get acquittal and did his lawyers plan this all out. The fact that he's a well known coach and has the money for high priced lawyers....makes me wonder if he's going to get off totally. This would send a horrible message and be a slap in the face to all victims.

I heard on the noon news - the judge apparently said "its not illegal to take a shower with a kid". I don't get that at all. Who does he think he is, to be naked with someone elses child....even if he didn't do anything. I highly doubt any male adult wants to come up with accusations like this if they're not true.

He's the King of evasion when reporters asked him - 'is he attracted to kids'. He took it in the dunce headed way, instead of how it was implied - meaning 'are you sexually attracted to kids'. His answers claiming 'I love to be around kids and their energy'......... isn't the right answer. Someone needs to spell it out to him, with this question - did you (Sandusky) ask for oral sex or engage in any sex from these victims???????? This is why he didn't take the stand. I wonder what's his IQ because he looks clueless when asked questions. These victims and their parents deserve to hear him admit he did wrong. He's so egotistical with a sense of entitlement, its sickening. Its very hard not to get emotional, when this evokes so many core feelings.

[Open Eyes]

From what I have seen, it really appears that Sandusky is a low life pedofile. I hope that he will get punished.

I look at these cases as awareness to all, a wake up call.

I would like to see this empower victims to speak up.

Open Eyes

[lynn P.]

Did anyone watch the NBC News show interview with one of Sandusky's victims? His testimony isn't counted in this trial because he came forward after the trial started. The news caster said if charges in this trial don't stick, they a line of 2nd victims ready for another trial at a different level. Sandusky has an adopted stepson who came foward recently who says he sexually assaulted him too. The other guy I just talked about - Sandusky offered to adopt him, even though he had parents - he approached his dad and said I'll formally adopt him. Sandusky was a busy predator and I'm more convinced he's a pedophile. Its very hard for any adult man to admit they were sexually assaulted by another man and admit they're a victim. He's the master of the typical groomer - playing the tickling and wrestling game. That camp he held was for underprivileged kids -perfect targets.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/br...at_he_did.html

[Open Eyes]

Lynn, like I said, this will be an eye opener for the general public. What this will do is "hopefully" lead to programs that will lean toward educating people on how these preditors work. These preditors ARE out there and they all have mastered a way of playing the part of a well respected humanitarian. They purposely put themselves in the roles of looking like they care for the underprivilaged etc, when all that is in reality is their way of attaining victims.

I had mentioned a while back that at my daughter's high school the history teacher was a mentor type to many young girls, including my daughter. And eventually he was caught having a sexual relationship with one of the students. My daughter did consider him a source for bringing her issues and troubles to, and the only thing that stood in the way of him pursuing her, I believe, is that I met him and showed that I was a parent that was involved with my daughter's life. But when I found out how much time my daughter was spending with him "she had lunch with him everyday", it really creeped me out. He WAS grooming my daughter and luckily she didn't look at him any other way but just a mentor. My daughter never told me about her lunches with this teacher, it was not until after he was exposed that I found out.

So, parents have to make sure that they are really AWARE of the mentors their children have.

Open Eyes

[PurpleFlyingMonkeys]

He was found guilty, put a huge smile on my face

[pachyderm]

Assuming he actually did these things, I wonder if Mrs. Sandusky really did not hear what was taking place, did hear but did not want to hear, or did hear and is lying to protect her husband, and herself.

The trouble with having a society which seems to so utterly condemn people who do these things is that we will probably never know the truth. If people believed they would not be forever condemned for what they did, they might tell the truth. (Or maybe not.)

[PurpleFlyingMonkeys]

They may be sick but they deserve it. I have had some violent urges and thoughts in my life but NEVER acted out on them. If an individual is sick and has thoughts of hurting children in this way, help is what they need. If they follow through with their thoughts, justice is what is needed. We should not be judged for our thoughts but for our actions. He committed, knowingly, a horrendous crime that murdered these childrens innocense and deserves the consequences
He knew he was committing a crime, and knew the penalty for that crime, and went through with it. He gets what is deserved. And they have psych doctors in prison, he will get the help he needs and the children will get their justice. Its one thong to think bad things, a completely different thing to act on it. Id like to strangle my past abusers, but will i? No because its murder and i am aware of the consequences of murder. He needs to be and is being punished for his crime. If a child gets mad and slaps his parents the parent puts him in time out. The parent doesnt typically say "its ok you hit me, ill send you to therapy with no punishment" the child gets time out and if warranted does also get therapy if the child is out of control.

A crime like this should not be without punishment, in any normal case they only get a slap on the wrist and back out of jail unless the crime is accompanied by murder near murder or numerous children. For once the judicial system actually worked for these children

[pachyderm]

I will write some about my thoughts on the situation:

Originally Posted by PurpleFlyingMonkeys

They may be sick but they deserve it.

"Deserve"? Do you know what they deserve? Or is it emotion that you (understandably) have, not an understanding of what anyone "deserves"?

I have had some violent urges and thoughts in my life but NEVER acted out on them.

I have acted out, to some small extent. By the grace of God or the Universe I did not act out in a way that harmed anyone greatly. I do not take credit for that. I was lucky.

If an individual is sick and has thoughts of hurting children in this way, help is what they need. If they follow through with their thoughts, justice is what is needed.

Justice? What is that? Revenge?

We should not be judged for our thoughts but for our actions. He committed, knowingly, a horrendous crime that murdered these childrens innocense and deserves the consequences

I know this will not be a popular idea, but I think that the idea that a child's innocence is "murdered" and forever damages the child is an overreaction that makes the damage to children worse than it already is. It tells the child that the adults think it is something beyond the ability of anyone to cope. I was abused, but am recovering, and my "innocence" is not totally corrupted (fortunately).

He knew he was committing a crime, and knew the penalty for that crime, and went through with it.

Do you know he knew? Or do you just feel he "must" have known?

If a child gets mad and slaps his parents the parent puts him in time out.

Not in my family! If I ever had the gall to slap my mother, she would have pounded me to the floor!

A crime like this should not be without punishment, in any normal case they only get a slap on the wrist and back out of jail unless the crime is accompanied by murder near murder or numerous children. For once the judicial system actually worked for these children

I don't like the idea of "punishment" at all. I agree that people who commit crimes should have "penalties" assessed against them, the degree of the penalty depending on the nature of the crime. And I think it is reasonable for society to require that they be isolated from the wider society for some period of time. I don't see that punishment ever does anyone any good, over the long term. It makes the punisher feel better for a short time. But it is misleading to think that that is an effective way to cure any problems in society. We have been "punishing" people for thousands of years: has it stopped anything?

As you can see, I get triggered by these things too.

[lynn P.]

I understand Pachy that you don't like the idea of punishment and TBH I rarely have to "punish" my girls. When I did, it was through positive parenting - for example taking away TV or video games or not playing outside for 1 day etc. True I don't see the value of punishing children harshly. Maybe you were punished as a child and I'm sorry for that - but....we're dealing with adults here. Are you saying a murderer shouldn't be sent to prison? I would love it, if prisoners would get rehabilitated so they could be better human beings.

What should we do with criminals if we don't send to prison??? If there's no known effective treatment for pedophilia - what should society do with a habitual pedophile?? I've thought as a parent what I would do - I'm not a violent person but I would pity anyone if they touched my child. If you were a parent you would understand what its like to feel protective. I don't know if you fully understand child sexual assault - this isn't something that should be taken lightly....it changes that victim, sometimes forever. How is society supposed to deal with a person who violates a child and steals their innocence?? As a society we need some kind of order - an adult knows the difference between right and wrong - if we veer off that path, what should be done. We just can't have a society where criminals can run free and wild.

I believe Sandusky has a huge ego and felt entitled. He was THE MAN for decades. His wife basically tolerated him and didn't question why her husband would have sleepovers. When she dies God will ask her why she didn't question her husband. I also blame the others adults - I don't care if God himself came down and offered my kids a sleepover - they wouldn't go.

[PurpleFlyingMonkeys]

Justice is them getting punishment for the crime, revenge would be castration followed by the same pain he inflicted on the children forced on him. He got off easy, wont even be in general population where revenge would be acted on. These children can sleep knowing he no longer has power to hurt the children. Debating over this is useless,. Verdict-guilty punishment-max 445 years in prison, the judicial system worked in favor of the victims, what its meant to do.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by lynn P.

What should we do with criminals if we don't send to prison???

Well, I have no question that criminals should go to prison, or somewhere where they can't harm society further. Unfortunately prison in this country is generally not a good place for making things better for anyone in the long run, as far as I can see.

The kind of discussion I was engaging in may not be appropriate for this forum. I did not post this thread here; it was moved from elsewhere. Maybe there is not a good place on Psych Central for the kind of analytic thinking I tend to like.

[Tamster]

A pedophile lurked in my house, it was my mother I would give anything to see her face a trial today. It sounds cruel as she must have been sick, but damn, something needs to be done to these folks that prey on the innocent !