[Big Mama]

I was thinking today, way more then I should have, If your abuser didn't know that they were being abusive is is still abuse. I think of it like a drunk driver who gets behind the wheel and hurts someone, even though they didn't realize it, they are still at fault and someone still got hurt. Am I seeing this wrong? Is accidental and unintentional abuse less of a wrong because you didn't know it.

What I am talking about here as many of you know, my H has been emotionally, verbally, and financially abusive, maybe even sexually abusive. My mental health has suffered greatly. My general health has been affected by the stress, and I have developed PTSD and Stockholm Syndrome. Not all this is my husbands fault. Life's circumstances before we met set some of this in motion but the fact remains my H has been abusive towards me.

My H and I have been in T on and off for 4 years. I left for a weekend once, I left for a month once, and I left for a year once. I was stupid and returned. My H has continued with his abusive ways up until.... well up until last weekend. I laugh as I write that because when I hear myself say it, it sounds insane.

I know I fall into this trap all the time. He tells me he is sorry, he promises to change, he makes some changes, but eventually we are right back where we started. This time things are different. YES, I KNOW, I KNOW EVERYONE SAYS THAT. I hope that is not what I am doing. My H gave me a long apology like he never has before. He acknowledged that he did some things wrong, he acknowledged that I have good reasons to be standoffish. I have good reason to be untrusting, and he took total blame for doing so many things wrong. Things wrong to me and to the kids. He admitted to being guilty of taking his frustrations out on us, he admitted to pushing our kids away, he admitted to being to harsh with me.

I really truly feel like he is trying to do better. I can see the change in him. He swears God is working in his life. I think he finally gets the picture, it has to stop or I am leaving and it is not going to be easy because I have lots of **** to overcome when it comes to him.

I explained it to him saying yes I do forgive you, but the scars are still there, the gaping holes in my heart still bleed, the pain is still present. Every time he strikes out at me verbally it is going to be like hitting a bruise. It is going to hurt more and hurt faster then it would the average person.

I guess the issue is I want to believe him, I do kinda believe him, that he has changed or at least changed some. I want to trust and believe that it is truely possible to heal this marriage. Anything is possible. But that fear still lingers in the back of my mind.

It feels good to be optimistic. I have not been optimistic in years. It feels good not to have a feeling of dread lingering over me. It feels good not to have an uncertainty in my soul. It feels good to want to share a life with my H. I have not felt that in years. In the back of my mind though I do know that he will unlikely change, and this is temporary.

I don't know what kind of input I am looking for, not sure what kind of advice I am seeking. I just feel really lost at the moment. What is joy one minute is uncertainty the next. IDK, that is all I know is IDK.

[Deejay14]

It still is abuse, no way around that one.

[Amethyst_Stargazer]

Yes, it's abuse. I suffer from PTSD and Stockholm Syndrome as well. I still try to convince myself that he's a good person when I know deep down he abused me. My therapist is helping me heal and I'm so thankful I found her. Sometimes I see sadness in her eyes whenever she's talking to me.

Sometimes my mind is an state of confusion and I'll go from happy go lucky and not even thinking about my abuse and than something will remind me of him and I'll start crying. Sometimes I hope he'll change and prove to me that he's changed but he hasn't and I doubt he ever will change.

I'm glad I'm not with him anymore but to be honest with you.... sometimes I miss him... So I can understand where you're coming from. Just talk to a therapist about whatever your feeling and write in your journal a lot. It has helped me a lot.

[Shazerac]

It's still abuse even when the abuser doesn't realize or admit to the abuse. I can't imagine what it would be like to be in an abusive relationship anymore. That part of my life is over, thank God.

I don't really know what to say to you about your husband. Maybe he will change maybe he won't.

[Big Mama]

Thank you all for your kind words and for sharing part of your story. That helps me a lot. I think back to all the things and the things that made me who I am today.

I think in terms of rules. I have to follow the rules, his rules. As long as I follow the rules it is pretty safe. I know the rules and they only apply to me, they do not apply to him. The rules can change at any given moment. A new rule can be added and I am expected to know what that rule is with out being told.

As long as I agree with him things are good. If he asks my opinion, he doesn't really want my opinion. I have to give the opinion that matches his or that he wants to hear. Any opinion other then his is simply wrong.

I can do what ever pretty much as long as his house is clean, and all the house cleaning standards are met, and I am home by the time he arrives home.

Appearance is everything. Tell no one of the abuse or the true facts, tell no one things are not good. Not family, friends, church, NO ONE!! I can have a T, but don't tell her the truth (I do any way).

Don't speak unless spoken to, don't give opinions unless asked. Do not talk back to him, do not defend yourself verbally. His word is the word, and his word is final.

Be good, clean well, agree with him, and he may give you a little extra gas money so you can afford to leave the house a little.

Make sure that the kids are quiet around him, that they are mindful of what they say. No laughing and giggling, singing or telling silly stories in his presence.

You can only be hungry when he is hungry. If he goes all day with out food they you WILL to and so will the kids.

These are just a few of the things he does. He has Aspergers and OCD, and maybe even borderline personality. Things are not good, but they are far far better then they used to be.

Sadly and nauseatingly sick, I still light up when he enters the room, and when he calls. (well sometimes when I know I am not in trouble) I left and went back, time and time again, I give him chance after chance. I want to give up some days and say F it, abuse me and I will take it, fighting it is just not worth it. Other days I he can change, he says he will and I see it sometimes. IDK, that is all I know, that IDK.

[Hedocakes]

If abuse was decided based on the abuser's knowledge, there'd be no abuse. Abusers have every reason to claim ignorance, but they don't have that right.

As the victim of that behavior, YOU are the arbiter of whether abuse happened.

Which is my very lengthy way of saying "yes, it's still abuse."

[Big Mama]

Originally Posted by Amethyst_Stargazer

Yes, it's abuse. I suffer from PTSD and Stockholm Syndrome as well. I still try to convince myself that he's a good person when I know deep down he abused me. My therapist is helping me heal and I'm so thankful I found her. Sometimes I see sadness in her eyes whenever she's talking to me.

Sometimes my mind is an state of confusion and I'll go from happy go lucky and not even thinking about my abuse and than something will remind me of him and I'll start crying. Sometimes I hope he'll change and prove to me that he's changed but he hasn't and I doubt he ever will change.

I'm glad I'm not with him anymore but to be honest with you.... sometimes I miss him... So I can understand where you're coming from. Just talk to a therapist about whatever your feeling and write in your journal a lot. It has helped me a lot.

Thank you for sharing. I am so sorry for the things you have had to go threw. You sound very similar to me. I have a great T. Sometimes I see the confusion in her face and the sadness in her eyes. Why don't I leave, why do I stay for this, where does my optimism come from. All she can do for me right now is continue to make sure I am safe and provide support and show me that someone cares. She cares.

Your second paragraph sounds just lie me. I am so conflicted and confused. One min I feel like I am ok and in control of things, the next min I am anxious and crying. I can go on for days like that, then i'm fine again for a few days.

Thank you again for sharing part of your story

[leejosepho]

Originally Posted by Big Mama

I think in terms of rules. I have to follow the rules, his rules...

Tell no one of the abuse or the true facts...

You have been taken hostage and your husband and I could be twins:

Originally Posted by Big Mama

He has Aspergers and OCD, and maybe even borderline personality.

He knows he is wrong and yet he is oblivious to the irreparable harm he is doing to you and to your (his and your) children. My first wife could ultimately take no more and divorced me, then several years later my second wife and I eventually re-married after I had finally accepted the harsh truth about myself as a monster and had begun a no-compromise course of action aimed at transformation.

I do understand how charming your monster-husband can be, but even a charming monster is still a monster and I suggest you get yourself and your children out of there as quickly as possible and then have someone let him know you will not be returning until he has begun learning to treat you and the children as human beings rather than as mere toys and possessions and has willingly become openly accountable to your pastor or someone you know and trust who knows how to discern and distinguish the actions of a charming monster from those of a righteous husband and father.

[nicoleflynn]

Abusers know what they are doing...that is why it is done behind closed doors, because they wouldn't treat others like that...it is a choice.

The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans saved my life after 31 years of verbal abuse. 'Guard your heart until you see sustained change."

Abuse is about one thing only: CONTROL...they/he needs to control every aspect of your life; they are excuciatingly insecure....if you try to follow all of their rules you will go mad.

They are emotional vampires....they need you to constantly explain yourself; you can save yourself a lot of grief by NOT responding to the abuse...dont argue...you cansay....."Oh, I see...that's how you feel......

[NP_Complete]

My husband claimed he wasn't responsible for what he did when he was drunk because, well, he was drunk. Did it hurt any less that he called me a "fat wh*re" when he was drunk versus when he was sober?

I think you know deep down that he hasn't changed. You're in a honeymoon period right now. Something is going to happen, you're going to look at him the wrong way, and he's going to go back to what he knows. It's a cycle. I know you don't want that for yourself or for your kids.

I get that feeling of wanting it to be different for real this time. My husband is in jail right now and what little contact we have had was for the most part about how much he loves me and how much he misses me, and part of me wants desperately to believe that's true because I want to be lovable, not the garbage he told me I was. (There was one message about how it was all my fault that he was in jail.) It's a process. Keep going to therapy. Keep posting here for support.

[Big Mama]

Thank you guys for your support.

leejosepho - You are right about being a hostage. My husband built a new house for us. All I hear is.... I built it, I paid for it, I this and I that. So I thanked him for building me such a nice prison.

As for the Aspergers, OCD and borderline personality, I tell him that it is not him that pushes me away, it is the "Diseases" that push me away. When he doesn't give in for them or medicates them things are so much better.

nicoleflynn - I like what you said aobut trying to please him:
nicoleflynn s Quote: if you try to follow all of their rules you will go mad. :End Quote:

That made me laugh, not because it was funny because it is so true. You can laugh or you can cry, and it does no good to cry, so you might as well laugh.

He IS driving me mad, no doubt about that. No sane person would stay.

NP Complete - Quote: My husband claimed he wasn't responsible for what he did when he was drunk because, well, he was drunk. End Quote:

A very wise counselor once asked me "If your husband drink and called you names and made the sexual demands your husband does would you stay? If your husband used drugs and did those things would you stay?" Of course I said No, I'd leave in a heartbeat. Then she asked "Why is doing this sober and out of his own free will any different?"

I still don't know the answer to that question. How sad it is that the question she asked sticks in my mind, yet I have no answer and make no decision. MADNESS. That is what it is.

[Open Eyes]

I guess the issue is I want to believe him, I do kinda believe him, that he has changed or at least changed some. I want to trust and believe that it is truely possible to heal this marriage. Anything is possible. But that fear still lingers in the back of my mind.

All you have at this point is simply him admitting his behavior is wrong. This really is not going to all of a sudden "end" his pattern of bad behaviors. He has to pay attention to his bad behaviors and work VERY hard on consciously changing these behavior patterns, this can be hard for someone to do consistently. Also, you are going to have to keep reminding him of the boundaries in you he is invading, he is so used to invading your boundaries to the point where he does this without even thinking about it, it's on automatic. He most definitely will slip up and that will be triggering for you. You have the habit of giving in and avoiding and allowing so you will have to work on standing your ground.

[Open Eyes]

BigMama,

One thing that might help you is to think about this as if your husband was a horse. I think you know enough about horses where you know horses can develop bad habits right? There is also temperament to consider and how one needs to work around that sometimes. In order to get a horse to learn one has to work with the horse and it has to be repetitive which means doing something with the horse the same way over and over, like repeating patterns. Eventually after consistent training the horse begins to actually get more and more push button in that the horse follows along with what it repeatedly learned to do.

Well, people are the same way. People also learn by repetition. When someone says "this horse is broke Western", what does that mean? You know what that means, it means the horse is trained to ride a certain way so a horse that is broke Western will not really understand it when a person hops on that horse and expects it to ride English or have the ability to understand how to get into a dressage frame and ride with a lot of hind end and rock back and balance in a way that Western Horses are not taught/trained.

Your husband has been practicing behavior patterns for a long time and YOU have been trained according to his behaviors. That is what Stockholm's is about. Your husband has learned to invade your boundaries and you had learned how to allow him to do that with you. It's pretty much like you were broke a certain way and you unknowingly follow a pattern when you are exposed to someone who rides the way you were trained. Unfortunately, repetitive abuse becomes something a person begins to follow along with. And what begins to develop is a "victim mentality" and this is often a learned pattern like Western Training where the person is broke that way and doesn't "know" how to ride "Normal and healthy".

Yesterday my husband was putting an ice tray he filled with water in the freezer and I walked in and it looked like he was pouring the water out of the ice tray into the freezer. His immediate reaction was that it was MY FAULT he was spilling the water when he was doing that before I said anything. My husband developed a habit of "blaming" me and he can get really bad about that when I call him out on doing something bad or disrespecting "my" boundaries.

I have been working very hard on standing up to this behavior that he practices with me. Yesterday I called him out on it and he did admit that he did react wrongly. But BM, that doesn't suddenly mean he is going to stop this behavior pattern he has with me, it only means in that brief moment he admitted his behavior was wrong. Now, what I tend to go through in a situation like that is that even though I pointed his behavior out, I anticipate him to do what he normally does where he doesn't admit and instead insists it is MY FAULT and I am wrong. Well, I have been down that road so many times where I get so I just don't want to engage and stand my ground because experience has taught me how that can blow up in my face. I have a very similar challenge that you have where I live with a Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde. And when Mr. Hyde kicks in I have found that no matter what I say, Mr. Hyde stands up to it, gets angry and BLAMES.

For me, truth is I never know when that door opens whether I am going to have to deal with Mr. Hyde who brings in all his frustration and fills my home with anger and a mean angry person. When you talked about the driveway and the stones being something your husband uses to rage about, I know what that is because my husband has that behavior too.

YET, my husband can also be kind and sensitive and loving. I know how you "want to believe" and what it's like to live with someone who has these two personalities.

One thing I have come to recognize it how this behavior is "familiar" to me because my father had these behavior patterns and my older sister exhibits these behavior patterns and I was broke to see that as "normal" and expect to have that behavior in my environment.

When a horse is broke Western and somehow gets away from that and begins to learn English, if a person gets on that horse and begins to ride it Western, it will respond and ride Western. You have left your husband a few times and once for a while and you even began to experience less stress too. Then you thought you were stronger and gave in and went back to your husband and once again he rode you Western and because you were broke that way you began to go right back to what you had been trained in your relationship with him. Well, that's how he trained you and rides you when you are around him. It's very hard to change that in a person when that person learned how to interact and exist a certain way. That person has to first become aware of his bad behaviors and training style, but that doesn't mean that person will be able to stop that behavior pattern that tends to be so automatic in them. And what you have in your relationship is how you both learned how to interact with each other in unhealthy ways. You both have been broke this way and it is a lot of work and really takes commitment in both individuals to work on developing a healthier way of interacting with each other.

The human brain is set up to "navigate" and that's really how most mammals/animals are designed to be. So in that we create our own mental maps where we develop ways of navigating around whatever environment we grow up in, much like how a horse learns to navigate in how to ride western if that horse is brought up in a western riding barn/community. We all get to a point where once we learn something we tend to navigate that way without even consciously thinking about it and that becomes how we are "broke" to function. That is why people don't like "change" and tend to stay with what they know and can feel so uncomfortable leaving an environment/culture/lifestyle they have become so familiar with.

This is why DBT therapy has proven to be so helpful because it helps a person slowly recognize the patterns they developed in their communication where they react in ways they don't realize are unhealthy for them. And how someone can react when the other person is communicating with them in toxic ways.

[Big Mama]

OE - I will respond shortly. Thank you for your input. What a great way of explaining things. I think only horse people would get that. Thanks.

[nicoleflynn]

Abusers say they love you. That is a lie....love doesn't hurt.....or call a person disgusting names. They quite frequently hate themselves and take it out on you...that is called projection....

[NP_Complete]

Originally Posted by nicoleflynn

Abusers say they love you. That is a lie....love doesn't hurt.....or call a person disgusting names. They quite frequently hate themselves and take it out on you...that is called projection....

It hurts when you realize you spent 27 years with someone you thought loved you. It makes you wonder what's wrong with you that you couldn't even see past the lie. Am I unlovable?

[Spangle]

Originally Posted by NP_Complete

It hurts when you realize you spent 27 years with someone you thought loved you. It makes you wonder what's wrong with you that you couldn't even see past the lie. Am I unlovable?

The reason you didn’t see, is because abusers are **** hot at manipulating & controlling us. We only see, what they tell us to see. You are very lovable & deserve better treatment. Nothing, is ever too late!

[crystal blue]

I know it feels good in the moment to be optimistic. But, I had a relationship for 15 years with just such a person. From the story you are telling, it sounds like my ex, he was a sociopath/narcissist. Before you get your hopes up that he will change, you should read about these personality disorders and their symptoms. I think it would benefit you.

[Big Mama]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

One thing that might help you is to think about this as if your husband was a horse. I think you know enough about horses where you know horses can develop bad habits right?

Your husband has been practicing behavior patterns for a long time and YOU have been trained according to his behaviors. That is what Stockholm's is about. Your husband has learned to invade your boundaries and you had learned how to allow him to do that with you. It's pretty much like you were broke a certain way. And what begins to develop is a "victim mentality" and this is often a learned pattern like Western Training where the person is broke that way and doesn't "know" how to ride "Normal and healthy".

For me, truth is I never know when that door opens whether I am going to have to deal with Mr. Hyde who brings in all his frustration and fills my home with anger and a mean angry person. Yet, my husband can also be kind and sensitive and loving. I know how you "want to believe" and what it's like to live with someone who has these two personalities.

Absolutely correct. I have been trained to react a certain way. and Just like an unruly horse who does not respect boundaries and the rider/owner becomes fearful of him, that only gives him more power. Power to repeat, power to push the limits, and even the power to abuse. A horse can be the abuser, biting, kicking, chasing, intimidating the rider/owner.

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

One thing I have come to recognize it how this behavior is "familiar" to me because my father and my older sister exhibits these behavior patterns and I was broke to see that as "normal" and expect to have that behavior in my environment.

When a horse is broke Western and somehow gets away from that and begins to learn English, if a person gets on that horse and begins to ride it Western, it will respond and ride Western. You have left your husband a few times and once for a while and you even began to experience less stress too. Then you thought you were stronger and gave in and went back to your husband and once again he rode you Western and because you were broke that way you began to go right back to what you had been trained in your relationship with him. Well, that's how he trained you and rides you when you are around him. It's very hard to change that in a person when that person learned how to interact and exist a certain way. That person has to first become aware of his bad behaviors and training style, but that doesn't mean that person will be able to stop that behavior pattern that tends to be so automatic in them. And what you have in your relationship is how you both learned how to interact with each other in unhealthy ways. You both have been broke this way and it is a lot of work and really takes commitment in both individuals to work on developing a healthier way of interacting with each other.

You are so right. This is what I am familiar with. Being treated a certain way is something I tolerate.

I did leave, on more then one occasion. I always return. It is very much like you explain. That is the whole thing Stockholm is created upon. Training, rewards and expectations, and fear. I returned last time, and I keep finding myself believing it will be different and I know that it is highly unlikely that it will.

Much like that little horse who is a biter, once he has been thought not to bite and you start to trust that you will no longer get bitten, it is when that guard is let down that he comes by and sneaks a bite and hurts you yet again.

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

The human brain is set up to "navigate" and that's really how most mammals/animals are designed to be. So in that we create our own mental maps where we develop ways of navigating around whatever environment we grow up in, much like how a horse learns to navigate in how to ride western if that horse is brought up in a western riding barn/community. We all get to a point where once we learn something we tend to navigate that way without even consciously thinking about it and that becomes how we are "broke" to function. That is why people don't like "change" and tend to stay with what they know and can feel so uncomfortable leaving an environment/culture/lifestyle they have become so familiar with.

I agree. I am so used to how this thing rolls. As long as everyone in the barn follows the rules then no one gets hurt. Here at my house we all try very hard to follow his rules. If we follow the rules then no one gets hurt. But you can't follow the rules, there are just to many to remember them all. They don;t all apply all the time, often they apply some of the time and only in certain circumstances. The rules often change to, and the rules apply to everyone except the person who made the rules.

[Big Mama]

Originally Posted by NP_Complete

It hurts when you realize you spent 27 years with someone you thought loved you. It makes you wonder what's wrong with you that you couldn't even see past the lie. Am I unlovable?

I agree with you 100%. I have lived with this person more then 20 years and have children with this person. They have treated me this way for at least 15 of those 20+ years. Why have I been so stupid as to let this happen and never put a stop to it or stand up to it. I know better and still yet, here I am same age old issue. I'm not unlovable, just clueless, spineless an stupid I guess.

[Big Mama]

Here is the deal.This is part of a journal entry for my T. But I will share it with you guys because it helps explain my struggles:


He apologized. He didn't just apologize, he admitted to saying things he should not have, being harsh when he could have reacted differently. He understands why I behave the way I do, fear, hurt, distrust, all things he has caused. I actually believe him. That is what scares me more then anything. I believe him.

Sometimes I feel optimistic other times I feel like such an idiot. He has been an abusive asshole for many years. He has said he will change, he will stop, he will do better but eventually he is right back to the way he was. I want to believe him. I want to trust him, I want to stay married to him but not if he is going to be mean. I want to believe he can do this. I feel like an idiot because he is being nice, and I think I am beginning to let my guard down a little. That alone is scary to me. He has hurt me so much, I fear I may be giving him the opportunity to do so again. I feel like an idiot because if he does revert back to the way he was then no one but me has allowed it and I hate myself enough as it is for ever letting things escalate to the point it has and stay that way for the length of tie I have. If I let him in and he hurts me that same way again, I do not know what I will do.

He talks all this crap about feeling a change taking place with in, and confusion as to how to act based on these new feelings. (kindness, patience, understanding are all so foreign to him) But he is sure that with time he will be a new person, a calmer person, a better person who no longer does those things. He says he has prayed so fervently for God to change his heart and I have to, maybe it is finally happening.

I trust in God, not in my H. I am not naive, I know what my H is capable of. I also know what God is capable of. I just don't know, there is nothing to do but proceed carefully and hope for the best and make sure my T never goes on vacation again. She is on vacation this week. She told me in advance she would be leaving her cell at home. I can get in touch with her Monday when she returns if I need her.

[Open Eyes]

Big Mama, You need to write a list of things he does that are toxic to your relationship and sit with him and set up rules, and please use the word BOUNDARIES. He is no longer allowed to come home and bring his anger/negative attitude in that door with him and take it out on you. You need to sit and think about all the things he does that makes you get hyper vigilant and want to escape him. He is not allowed to yell in your home and if he doesn't stop tell him you will leave him for good. Also, you need to let him know that when he starts up you will say, "speak in a kinder tone" and he has to calm down and change his tone. He has to "consciously" practice using a kinder tone until he gets to a point where that is more and more automatic and NOT his angry tone that he uses with you.

[Rocky22]

Yes, definitely, we’re all accountable for our own behaviors. We get feedback on whether or not our behaviors are acceptable, in part, from other people (especially when growing up and figuring out how to operate in this world). Even if someone is slow to understand how they impact others, they’re still responsible for themselves and their impact on others is no different. If anything, I think it can actually be much harder to deal with someone who doesn’t appear to “get it”. You are left being both abused and feeling like you’re dealing with someone who needs help (which they do, but only they can decide whether or not they get it). My parents were very similar to this, took me a good 20 years to finally let them go.