AA for the non-believer

Is AA about god/religion?

AA does suggest finding a higher power of your understanding. However, some are able to go through AA without that and stay sober...only time would tell for you. Personally I could not, i tried twice. I now have 2 1/2 yrs with a higher power.

I think that somebody should make an addiction treatment program that is secular in nature. As somebody who considers himself an agnostic atheist, if I ever had an addiction issue in my life, an AA meeting wouldn't be able to help me because almost half of the steps seem to involve a higher power somehow.

Or one could always be like that atheist who was addicted to drugs and was told that he had to go to an AA meeting as condition of parole and was denied a secular version and refused and was sent back to prison and sued the state for millions haha

there are actually secular AA meetings where the steps and the message have been tweaked. You'd have to call around your area or check the web to find them.

Not a huge AA fan regular or secular but have seen it help a few of my friends.

I read an interesting article in the atlantic on AA. See if it applied to you.

The Irrationality of Alcoholics Anonymous - The Atlantic

I have no personal experience with alcohol addiction.

There are lots. The most common and widely used is SMART. It is a good program.

16 steps is also far less religious than AA and I like because it is more empowering and less negative. 16 steps worked better for trauma issues, for me, and SMART for basic living stuff...

The problem is that these programs do not get the same funding or church space as 12 step meetings do, and they are often run by counsellors and therefore are more dependent on funding.

But in big cities there are a ton of options, usually... I wish people were told this more often. AA does not have to be the only option!

I got to AA with no belief in a higher power and no real desire to find one. What I did have was a willingness to do anything to sober up. Through the 12 steps, I have remained sober for over 2 years. Along the way I have formed a relationship with a higher power OF MY UNDERSTANDING. AA doesn't require you to believe anything in particular.....just to admit that, maybe, there is something out there that is more powerful than you.

A good friend of mine is an atheist and has managed to stay sober for 14 years in AA.

It sure seems that way. They keep on me about a "higher power" and needing to find one. I have problems with authority figures so it's very confusing to me too. They say it isn't about God or religion but then say I need a higher power.

Here is a reason why AA incorporates a Higher Power:

First of all, alcohol to an alcoholic, beside dissolving fears, make them feel ten foot tall and bullet proof. They believe, while under the influence, that they are Einstein (even god), also the great romancer, and the great dancer, etc. A primary symptom of alcoholism are delusions of grandeur. This mental delusion of self gets them to think they can stop drinking whenever they want to, but they don't want to.

Recovery is the opposite to alcoholism. They have to quite playing god, because it did not work.
They can no longer rely on themselves when it comes to drinking alcohol. They have to rely on another power, greater than themselves.

Most alcoholics have been that way for many years. During that time they have unknowingly altered their thinking to support drinking.
There morals, ethics, rationality, judgement, discrimination, etc have been twisted to support drinking, but not sobriety.
When they stop drinking, they still have that twisted thinking. As some say, our best thinking often gets us drinking. An AA joke is: "If you take the alcohol out of a fruitcake you still got a fruitcake".
The tricky bit about being insane, is that you do not know your insane, because you are insane.

STEP 2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Recovering alcoholics need to rely on other than self. Most prefer God, as they understand God to be. Many say that GOD stands for Good Orderly Direction.

Secondly, the God concept works.

Pretty much. From the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, "Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to help you find a Power greater than yourself that will solve your problem."

and

"Even so has God restored us all to our right minds. To this man the revelation was sudden. Some of us grow into it more slowly. But He has come to all who have honestly sought Him. When we drew near to Him He revealed Himself to us."

It is true that oftentimes newcomers are told that they can have their own interpretation of a less exact 'Higher Power' such as God equaling 'good orderly direction' or even 'group of drunks' - but then we are told to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God and suddenly, the 'group of drunks' acronym no longer works.

That is not to say that AA can't work for the atheist or agnostic, as long as they are willing to do some mental gymnastics to get over the God aspect. I was and remain an atheist and was what the AA Big Book calls a 'real alcoholic'. I have managed to stay sober for some twenty-three years now. I found that for me, getting honest with myself was the key, and I couldn't do that by pretending to have a belief where one didn't exist.

Hi yagr,

Thanks for your perspective and congratulations on long-term sobriety. I appreciate both your honesty woth yourself and here with us. I have a few questions if you have a moment.

What was your level of participation in AA? Frequency of meeting, working steps, having and/or being a sponsor?

Do you have psychiatric co-mobidity like depression or bipolar disorder to recover from along with alcoholism? What is your take on marijuana?

Thanks,

moogs

Hello yagr.
Interesting post.
I found that many atheists do use the Group Of Drunks acronym in Step 3, when they are willing to follow the suggested things by AA as a whole. This is usually done through the aid of all those AA approved literature, a healthy Home Group with older sober members, and sponsorship. I can see that you have reached a good length of sobriety - congratulations for trusting (faith) in the AA program and anything else that helped you to stay sober.

Also, some recovering alcoholics understand God to be Truth. Honesty fits into the Truth category extremely well. It worked for me for over 27 years. To me, Truth, a far deeper truth than what we see on the surface, is the only reality. It has to be, because whatever is not true is a deception of sorts. AA has eluded to this in the big book when they wrote about Step 4. In their list (p.65), in the far right column, they bracketed (fear) with every resentment. Fear is an example of a deeper truth.

It is these truths (levels of self-honesty) that has led me to discover other truths such a unconditional love - the expression of truth. Truth is reliable, eternal, sets us free, doubtless, available, gentle (truth does not hurt, what hurts is our ego squirming), and other characteristics of truth and love. Truth and love are actually the same thing, one is the greater reality, the other expresses it. In my honest opinion.

For you? Absolutely!

Well, let me give a bit of background first. I entered the program in 1978 following a very strong suggestion from the court system. I began going daily, with the exception of Saturdays when a carload of us (including my sponsor) would hit seven of them, beginning with a sunrise meeting. I met my sponsor at my first meeting, but didn't actually know he was my sponsor until my second meeting. I began service work after my first meeting cleaning ashtrays.

I attended meetings regularly for five years and stayed sober for seven. The last two years I spent in six different combat zones as a member of the military and chose to numb the pain of many experiences at that time. I stayed out for seven years, the last five of which I was on the streets, living under a bridge and generally dying.

I came back in May of 1992, beaten beyond measure. My heart gave out twice in the DT's, the last time for six minutes - certainly long enough to stay dead, but I did not. I woke about 75 seconds after the doctor called me (dead).

I went to 372 meetings in my first ninety days. It wasn't pretty. I couldn't walk unassisted, couldn't control my bodily functions and would often urinate in my pants sitting in meetings. But I would make my way outside when they locked the doors and sit on the curb waiting for the next one.

The first year back I attended about a thousand meetings. I got a sponsor fairly early on...it was and remained unofficial - she was a woman, and I'm a guy and as a result, she resisted greatly, but I called her five or six times a day and did whatever she told me, so she eventually ignored the suggestion of men with men and women with women.

Off topic a bit, but you might find it interesting. I did my fifth step with her. Contrary to what I had heard in meetings, I didn't feel like a weight was lifted off my shoulders after my fifth step – I felt like crap. She took me outside after we did it and set up a makeshift net, putting me far enough away from the net to make it challenging and dumped twenty soccer balls at my feet. “Kick them into the net,” she said, “one at a time.”

I made twelve and eight balls went wide – either left or right. She had me collect the balls that didn't go into the net and put them in the backseat of her car and took me out to coffee. On the way, she stopped in a shopping center and dropped the eight balls off in a dumpster. She brushed my questions off till we got to the coffee shop and then said simply, “Those balls were defective; they missed the net.”

Personally, I thought she had snapped – maybe she did more drugs than I had or something but I couldn't let it go. “The balls weren't defective,” I said. “I just missed.” The rest of the conversation went something like this:

Her: What do you mean you just missed? Weren't you aiming?
Me: Well, yeah but, I mean...I guess I kicked it a little off center or something.
Her: So let's see if I have this right. You kick the ball – you apply too much force to the left or the right and a perfectly good ball misses the net? You're saying that those balls weren't defective?
Me: Umm..yeah?
Her: So those balls that I just threw away were perfectly good balls?
Me: Yes.
Her: So I must look like an idiot right about now huh?

Before I could answer, she went on, “So how much of an idiot must you be?” She took my look of bewilderment as a sign to continue. “I mean you get kicked around, abused physically, mentally and sexually throughout your childhood – then you go off center and miss becoming a well adjusted member of society. I just threw away eight soccer balls, you tried to throw away your whole f'in life! You reacted like anyone or anything that has had the wrong force applied to it. The ball would have been defective if it had gone straight after you kicked it all cockeyed. And so would you have. There's nothing wrong with you; there never has been! Forget that again and I'll kick your *** for making me throw away eight perfectly good soccer balls to make a point!”

She was something special - or at least the perfect fit for me. Anyway, I attended meetings for three years and then, pretty much just stopped. I didn't stop working the program - but as I have explained to some others, my tools for continued recovery became different, more nuanced perhaps. I have shared that I am an atheist, and I am, but I am also spiritual. I am Buddhist; we do not believe in a Creator, but we have a rich spiritual tradition and I lived that.

Then, almost exactly four years ago, my wife returned home to me after twenty-four years in prison, which is where her alcoholism and addictions took her. She attends meetings and I attend with her. We have spent far too much time apart for me to see her go off without me. So for the last four years I have been attending again, with her.

I had DID, one alter. She is six years old. During my second year in recovery, I helped her do her fourth step and she shared her fifth with me. We have not had dissociative amnesia since that day and so today what I have would be called OSDD or Other specified dissociative disorder. We are continually co-conscious, though one or the other of us may take the lead as our individual talents provide for.

I also suffered from severe PTSD and c-PTSD, but healed from both through my meditation practice. Basically I went back and lived every moment, downloading fragments or puzzle pieces from my right brain to my left. It worked.

As for marijuana... touchy subject. I live in a state in which it is illegal for a doctor to prescribe narcotic pain relief for chronic pain conditions. Amongst other things, three and a half years ago I came down with a rather nasty auto-immune disorder. Besides the deterioration of my nervous system, it also causes debilitating muscle spasms that can last upwards of thirty minutes, or until muscle rips from bone. I've had as many as forty such spasms in a day. As I type this, I have complete tears of both rotary cuffs, both elbows, both biceps are torn, my left hip, right knee and ankle. So, long story short, I am in chronic pain.

Three and a half years ago, my doctor gave me a bottle of ibuprofen 800 and a pitch for trying medical marijuana. I brought my wife into the conversation and we discussed the possible pros and cons. Long story short - I waited another two years before I tried it and the effect was immediate and stunning. I reserved usage for evenings only, so that I could sleep past the pain I gutted through during the day, and insisted on sub-lingual oil so that the 'smoking' aspect was removed. As time went on though, its effectiveness waned and my sleep became progressively worse. A sleep study showed I was not getting any stage three or REM sleep and my doctor referred me to a psychiatrist fearing for my sanity.

The pdoc wrote a recommendation to my primary care physician that I be given pain killers for psychiatric as well as physical reasons and with the coalition, I was able to bypass the legal restraints. I know have prescription painkillers which I reserve for nighttime only, and once a week I ignore directions and don't take them for two days so that I can insure that I am not developing a dependency on them. Incidentally, I quit medical marijuana immediately upon getting this script.

So, I think there is a place for the medicinal use, but one must be vigilant. That's probably more than you wanted but I began typing and didn't know when to stop.

Hi 2B/-2B; interesting nick.

Sincerely, far be it for me to argue with success. If it works, don't fix it. For me, I found it difficult to say, 'turn my will and life over to a group of drunks'. I tried. Once when the basket went around, I put all my bills in that I had no way to pay, and had been told to 'ask God'. That was my way of asking G.O.D. Didn't work.

Frankly, there are many suggestions to which the acronym didn't work for me. I asked the group for Their protection and care with complete abandon, but as you probably guessed, I was directed back to a Higher Power than the group.

Thank you.

I came to AA for salvation from alcoholism, but not to be converted from my religion. This was why I explained that some mental gymnastics were needed. In my case, I had to go from an anthropomorphic god to things like truth. In the beginning, I was incapable of making the leap - in fact, as I just shared above, I was incapable of controlling my bodily functions. I just kept coming back.

I think that our respective journeys have brought us to a place that is not so very far apart.

yagr, thank you for your explanations.
I agree, we both are grateful for our sobriety and our new way of life.

Thanks yagr for the rest of the story. This is what I love about PsychCentral. I don't think sharing at this level of detail is often possible within a meeting. I am glad that we're able to discuss sensitive 12-step program related issues here.

Back to the Original Poster's question. We can see that at least in these cases some sort of spiritual tools and or growth has been part of recovery - not necessarily God, but most successful recovering alcoholics as part of AA have at least some sort of improved spiritual understanding.

For me, I was a staunch Atheist and defender of Atheism into my 20s. Related some to my bipolar and some to my recovery from alcoholism, I now acknowledge at a personal level some spiritual phenomenon that I leave analysis alone for - I just rely on undefined faith.

In a practical sense, I asked myself "What am I willing to change to stop drinking and work on recovery?" I wanted to get very specific - I was pretty desperate. I mean if other recovering alcoholics insisted I shave my head or change my belief system, I would consider these, as these would be small items to change about myself to find the rewards of recovery.

I hope this discussion helps you in your journey.

moogs

I am an alcoholic, sober for 13 years. I haven't believed in god since I was 19. Still I attend AA meetings regularly. I know there is a power in the universe bigger than I am. However, for purposes AA as a whole, AA is my higher power. Works for me.

There is a chapter in the Big Book called, "We Agnostics". I think you can read it online if you don't have a copy handy. It's worth reading.

Try SMART Recovery. It's all about personal responsibility. You're not powerless. Good luck!

May I ask, did you read that chapter as an agnostic or atheist? I'm asking only because I found it (and still do) to be incredibly condescending. Now my take on it is not the only one of course, but most of those who I've found recommending it have been believers. So again, it's just curiosity.

While the chapter does speak about 'spiritual experiences' which in a broad sense does not necessarily require a God, it goes on to make very clear that the spiritual experience is dependent upon a God. i.e.



In today's post-modernist world, this includes folks like myself who are Buddhist and get to be spiritual without "of course, talking about God", but the chapter itself equates a 'Power greater than yourself' with 'God' period.

The final words in the chapter say it all, "Even so has God restored us all to our right minds...But He has come to all who have honestly sought Him. When we drew near to Him He disclosed Himself to us."

To too many of us, the box is simply too small and this chapter feels much like the classic bait and switch. I'd recommend to anyone interested an article by Bill W in Grapevine article back in 1961 called, The Dilemma of No Faith.

The Dilemma of No Faith, By Bill W.

AA is cool.

I do agree. I think that I can come across lukewarm on that at times, but it is not true. AA saved my life.

Where I live now though, I could not have gotten sober here. The meetings begin and end with the Lord's prayer. The Bible is read out of at every meeting. It is fine, it works for those for whom it works, but I have become a reluctant voice - not for change but for the newcomer for whom such things might scare off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yagr May I ask, did you read that chapter as an agnostic or atheist? I'm asking only because I found it (and still do) to be incredibly condescending. Now my take on it is not the only one of course, but most of those who I've found recommending it have been believers. So again, it's just curiosity.

It was written from a Judeo-Christian perspective.

[/SIZE][/QUOTE]The final words in the chapter say it all, "Even so has God restored us all to our right minds...But He has come to all who have honestly sought Him. When we drew near to Him He disclosed Himself to us."

To too many of us, the box is simply too small and this chapter feels much like the classic bait and switch. I'd recommend to anyone interested an article by Bill W in Grapevine article back in 1961 called, The Dilemma of No Faith.

The Dilemma of No Faith, By Bill W.
[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

I'll read this when I get the chance, so I can't respond to this article. What I pulled from the chapter was mainly to adopt some sort of higher power to facilitate the recovery process (via the 12 step method), or what is the alternative? Continued suffering and despair, or as they often say, "Jails, institutions or death." In the final analysis, I had no specific animosity towards the word, "God" or even the concept, but I was struggling with the idea that there was some specific entity somewhere that could provide me support and guidance. The concept of oneness and connection, as in experiencing a connection with others on the same journey is what it boiled down to as my higher power. Letting go of the feeling that I was somehow special or unique in some unknowable or intangible way.