Feminism

I don't have time to post everything I want to get off my chest, but I'm going to start here and maybe get a conversation going. This woman on The View yesterday pissed me off, and I just want to tear my hair out when I hear women say things like this woman did.

In short, she thinks we should dumb ourselves down to men. Men need to feel needed. So don't tell him if you know how to change a tire, just let him do it for you. She also has the attitude that a woman's life goal is supposed to be to get a man and keep him, and have his children. Nothing wrong with doing that if you want to, but you shouldn't be in the frame of mind that you can't be a complete person unless you have a man in your life romantically.

She said women seeking equality and all the things we've accomplished in the past forty years for women has led to men who don't want to get married. Ok, so don't marry those men! I don't need to get married to feel I'm a whole person. I love men, but I don't need men. And men don't need women. We need people, connections, but the type of connections don't have to be certain types of relationships.

I don't always agree with Whoopi Goldberg, but I really appreciated her giving her point of view on this topic. What if a man dies or leaves you, and you don't know how to pay the bills and take care of business? What if you have to go to work, but don't have an education? A woman should be able to take care of herself. I say that and I'm not able to do some things like change a tire, but at least I can do some stuff. I'm not helpless.

It makes me mad that, for all the fighting for rights we've done, some women don't appreciate it and want to go back to the 50's when women stayed home, cooked and cleaned, raised the family. Why can't men and women work inside and outside the home equally? I'm not saying they have to...if one (either one) wants to work outside and the other inside, that's fine, but it shouldn't be because you think you're supposed to play that role. We live in a day when we are much freer than we used to be, except for all the messages society and media tell us about our body image, what it is to be a woman, and what's a woman's worth. We're being knocked over all the time, saying we're supposed to look a certain way, act a certain way, and know our place.

That was longer than intended, but it's not all I have to say on the subject. Anyone want to jump in and continue this conversation (because it's not a conversation if no one responds, LOL!). BTW, I'm not man-bashing here; I just think we can value each other without putting the other beneath us.

I couldn't agree more with you. My stepmom acribes to this belief, and has declared that I, at age 28, am going to be a spinster if I don't get married within the next 2 years. She believes that in order to be whole, I need a man in my life. Do I want the companionship? Sure, but it doesn't mean that I am not fulfilling my purpose in life by not being a wife. It's ridiculous.

I agree, Maven.
There are times when, due to low self-esteem, I get panicky about certain things and think I have missed my calling as a woman in this life: I have been relationship avoidant so basically not had much of a relationship and have thus not had any children during my child-bearing years either. Your stepmum would most likely describe me as a spinster being much older than you.
I do still struggle sometimes with notions attached to being a woman and having reached middle age and still being single and childless such as sometimes thinking I am unlovable. Social attitudes on gender might come into that as well but it's more of a personal thing I struggle with based on my history.
The children issue is still very painful to me: it's not just about the 'mission' one is supposed to have as a woman, but also a personal longing for it.

That said, when I am less emotional, I can step back from this and then completely agree with you on women being whole persons without needing the validation of a man or children next to them. I also think that women should most definitely not make themselves look stupid in order to be allegedly more attractive to some men. I have a university education and am certainly against such approaches.

Thank you for posting this thread, Maven.

To me a relationship means to enhance each other, not dumbing down for either of us. I can change a tire but I would gladly give that up for a man to do because I don't like doing it. I can do the dishes but would gladly give it up for a man to do because I don't like doing it....lol. I think both men and women should learn to do everything we can and bring it to the table and help each other out, idealisticly. I saw that show and wasn't impressed with her either.

I saw that that was going to be on and made a point not to watch it. Just the preview ticked me off. I can completely understand where you are coming from Maven.

I have heard her speak before and the only thing I could concede in her point is how some want to feel needed, but there are better ways about doing this to base their self esteem. I would hope that men and women can complement each other with their strengths and weaknesses, and learn from each other. In the process, there is nothing wrong with each of us, men or women, doing anything for ourselves or for each other. Otherwise I fear she will setting us back with her notions if too many people take them to heart. I will say this, she has gotten us talking.

I cannot change a tire and I suspect (although I have not checked) that the men in my life cannot either. That is what money, insurance, and specialized services are for. And, division of labor. No one is supposed to be everything at once and be good at every skill and craft at once. I certainly am not going to lose sleep over the fact that I cannot and will not learn how to change a tire, nor will I select men according to their ability to change tires. I think it is a superficial criterion. Do not even know why this woman speaker chose to talk about tires in the first place.

Thanks, all. Iamhealingme, I want to comment on something you said. I can't change a tire (but believe I should learn) or do any kind of car repairs, but even if I could, I would agree...I'd rather someone (doesn't have to be a man) do it for me. Same with dishes. Just to clarify, I'm not saying you should do everything for yourself, but just be able to or have the means to hire someone. I'm absolutely happy to pay someone to do stuff I don't like, and I think they should be paid well. I just don't think we should play the "helpless female" role.

I also want to add, just in case I came across as such, I am not saying there's anything wrong with wanting a husband and/or child(ren)--I would like a husband, although not kids--but it's the idea that you are unworthy of being a woman if you don't "accomplish" these goals.

The attitude of this woman will set women's rights back 50 years if we accept it. I like having the right to vote, to pursue pleasure, to seek a job I enjoy, to have a full education, etc. Way back when the man was the sole breadwinner, he could choose almost any line of business he wanted, or at least had the opportunity to learn something that interests him. So, he could earn money doing something he enjoyed. There aren't many ways a woman can clean a house...so she can't look for something that will help her enjoy cleaning her house if she doesn't like cleaning.

I don't know why some people have such a problem with men and women being equal and sharing in the responsibilities.

Wow, I missed that episode but I have had the opposite experience Maven. I have been bombarded with constant feminism which makes it's view that women are not worthy unless they have a college degree and get married or have children well past their thirties. "domestication" is viewed as ignorant, old fashioned, and 'out of style' for females. I haven't seen or read really anything for years, perhaps my whole life (I'm 28) that supports traditional gender roles. All of my life it has been pushed upon me to hate men, to look down on their contributions etc. and to become a super educated independent man hater! lol surprised that on such a progressive show like the View they would dare share something so opposite of America's modern perspective on gender roles etc.

This attitude has its health costs for sure - the breast cancer risk goes way up if a woman postpones childbearing well past her thirties.

Feminism simply means the belief that women are socially, economically and politically equal to men. If you believe in equality between the sexes, then you are a feminist. Not all feminists agree on how to achieve this equality, so you may have only seen a limited view of feminists. Some of us don't yell, but maybe we should. The loudest opinions seem to have convinced young women that feminism is a bad thing.

I believe women should be able to make equal pay, have an equal status in the home and as a parent, and have the same opportunities as men. In general, there are things that seem to be easier for men to do, and things that women seem better at. But there are exceptions, and if a man or woman is interested in trying what the other seems to do more, they should have a chance to prove themselves. If they do succeed at this, then they should be offered a position for the job (or whatever it is), being treated as an equal and with the same respect.

I can get into a looooong discussion on feminism, but I'm far past bedtime and I need to get to sleep. Perhaps in a future post in this thread I can share more, or later in another thread.

I disagree with this woman. Her premises and conclusions with regard to gender relationships sound outdated to me. If these men she is talking about need others, in particular intellectually challenged women, to feel happy, they definetely have a big problem and should go seek some professional help.

The question is what the other person, man or woman, has to offer - because it is there in abundance - , and whether there is a demand for this "skill" or "resource" in the other person.

I also agree with you that the media does not offer us confirmation or acceptance in our roles as women. They are indirectly comparing us with an artificial ideal of "the woman" that makes you feel deficient instead of proud. But I tell you, if I met "this woman" somewhere, I would feel sorry for her and hope she found some professional help.

So the question is, where do we find confirmation for what we are right now. Do we have to read the old feminist classics? Will they give us confirmation? Where can I find positive, independent, happy role models that are rewarded by their society with love, understanding, equality and support, and not with derisive laughter, prejudices and unequal payment? Do we take the liberty to be happy? Or do we still have to fight for our right to party?

I think that the anger that you feel, actually is the anger of "this woman on The View". Don't place yourself at her disposal. Her job is to make you feel bad, because you are happy without having to dumb yourself down to a stupid media mogul's needs. And we don't need this sort of media coverage.