[Strive4health]

Lately it's been making me SO angry when people want to deny sexism in the workplace. Why won't people admit it's real and it does happen?

I've had interviews on the phone, and in person where the interviewer (a man) made it obvious through his body language or vocal tone that he viewed me as inferior. I've been treated like a "stupid girl" before, and when I share this with others it gets dismissed as a hallucination. I am NOT hallucinating!

I saw this when I worked in a female-dominated field before. I used to work in direct care with children and adults and saw how men were treated. Some of them were even treated like they were potential sexual molesters with less respect than their female counterparts. I have even talked to men who wanted to go into nursing or teaching younger children but decided against it despite a strong interest and talent for it. They said "I don't feel like being treated differently." Of course, who wants to be simply because they are a man or a woman?

This just makes me SO MAD! If a person has the ability, drive, motivation, and work ethic to make their company look good, who cares if they are a man or a woman? Why does it matter in an interview if they are a man or a woman if the meet/or exceed the qualifications? Grrr!!

[glok]

Hello, Strive4health. Some places have a grievance process. Of course, pursuing a grievance sometimes just makes it harder. I hope you find a solution.

I wish you well.

[Strive4health]

No, I mean I am talking about in general, not a specific workplace situation.

[hvert]

Yeah, it gets to me too. It's the pay gap that drives me crazy. I'm really tired of having more experience and knowledge and making less money. My boyfriend tells me that the idea of pay gap is a myth, but it sure doesn't seem to work that way in IT. Are men just better at negotiating salaries? I don't get it.

[Strive4health]

Originally Posted by hvert

Yeah, it gets to me too. It's the pay gap that drives me crazy. I'm really tired of having more experience and knowledge and making less money. My boyfriend tells me that the idea of pay gap is a myth, but it sure doesn't seem to work that way in IT. Are men just better at negotiating salaries? I don't get it.

I don't get it, either. If you have woman A and man A negotiate using the same words and methods, man A is more likely to get a raise than the woman. It's a fact. In interviews, I can't stand how women are asked questions men wouldn't be asked. At least, the tone I've received was not a tone men would have received.

People denying sexism in the workplace are probably the same people who'd deny ageism in the workplace...and I think in today's world, ageism is probably just as bad.

Worked in an office once where the boss kept making the point that males can't multi-task. It was awkward because I was the only male in the room a lot of the time so it sounded like she was making a comment about me and I felt self-conscious.

[guilloche]

Originally Posted by hvert

Yeah, it gets to me too. It's the pay gap that drives me crazy. I'm really tired of having more experience and knowledge and making less money. My boyfriend tells me that the idea of pay gap is a myth, but it sure doesn't seem to work that way in IT. Are men just better at negotiating salaries? I don't get it.

Not only that, from what I've read - if a male negotiates hard for his salary while starting a new job, he's seen as strong, determined, and basically in a positive light. It's normal and expected. If a female does the same thing, she's seen as a... not very nice word that starts with a "b"

At any rate, I guess I'm fortunate that I haven't run into too much blatant sexism in my jobs... although when I graduated from college (computer science degree) ~15 years ago, at the graduation ceremony - there were 2 females (me being one of them) getting "highest honors". We had to line up by "honors", so the 2 of us were first in line (there was a guy as well, but he skipped the ceremony). The male prof who was organizing the line jokingly asked if they were giving us "pink dipolomas" too I wish I had said something smart, but I was pretty hurt/upset, talk about discouraging!

[RachelCarsonfan]

Originally Posted by guilloche

Not only that, from what I've read - if a male negotiates hard for his salary while starting a new job, he's seen as strong, determined, and basically in a positive light. It's normal and expected. If a female does the same thing, she's seen as a... not very nice word that starts with a "b"

At any rate, I guess I'm fortunate that I haven't run into too much blatant sexism in my jobs... although when I graduated from college (computer science degree) ~15 years ago, at the graduation ceremony - there were 2 females (me being one of them) getting "highest honors". We had to line up by "honors", so the 2 of us were first in line (there was a guy as well, but he skipped the ceremony). The male prof who was organizing the line jokingly asked if they were giving us "pink dipolomas" too I wish I had said something smart, but I was pretty hurt/upset, talk about discouraging!

What a way to deflate your joy in what should have been a very special day/memory! Wouldn't it be nice to be Sabrina (the teenage witch) and be able to pop back to that moment in time and have the chance to tell that prof just how his comments made you feel? "Listen bub; I worked hard for this diploma and no one, including you, is going to diminish my sense of accomplishment today. I am a woman and darn proud of it!"

Two different ways of viewing the same behavior exists not only in salary negotiations. Some examples: When a woman gets mad, she's "PMSing"; when a man gets mad, he's being forceful. When a woman asserts herself in the household, the man is seen as weak and woman as "wearing the pants in the family"; when a man asserts himself, he's seen as appropriately taking charge of his domain. There are many more examples.

We can thank our male dominant western culture for all of this. I do think though that we are making strides towards more equality. The younger generations are far more open to allowing the genders to blend together. There's hope for the future!

[Strive4health]

Originally Posted by RachelCarsonfan

What a way to deflate your joy in what should have been a very special day/memory! Wouldn't it be nice to be Sabrina (the teenage witch) and be able to pop back to that moment in time and have the chance to tell that prof just how his comments made you feel? "Listen bub; I worked hard for this diploma and no one, including you, is going to diminish my sense of accomplishment today. I am a woman and darn proud of it!"

Two different ways of viewing the same behavior exists not only in salary negotiations. Some examples: When a woman gets mad, she's "PMSing"; when a man gets mad, he's being forceful. When a woman asserts herself in the household, the man is seen as weak and woman as "wearing the pants in the family"; when a man asserts himself, he's seen as appropriately taking charge of his domain. There are many more examples.

We can thank our male dominant western culture for all of this. I do think though that we are making strides towards more equality. The younger generations are far more open to allowing the genders to blend together. There's hope for the future!

I don't think this has to do with a male dominant culture at all, but more to do with stupid people and their stereotypes. It's like when people get shocked after finding out the good-looking guy with muscles is in IT...research has confirmed there is a strong correlation between beauty and intelligence. Saying a guy can't be good looking in IT is just as sexist as saying guys don't belong in teaching, childcare, nursing, etc.

[guilloche]

Originally Posted by RachelCarsonfan

What a way to deflate your joy in what should have been a very special day/memory! Wouldn't it be nice to be Sabrina (the teenage witch) and be able to pop back to that moment in time and have the chance to tell that prof just how his comments made you feel? "Listen bub; I worked hard for this diploma and no one, including you, is going to diminish my sense of accomplishment today. I am a woman and darn proud of it!"

Two different ways of viewing the same behavior exists not only in salary negotiations. Some examples: When a woman gets mad, she's "PMSing"; when a man gets mad, he's being forceful. When a woman asserts herself in the household, the man is seen as weak and woman as "wearing the pants in the family"; when a man asserts himself, he's seen as appropriately taking charge of his domain. There are many more examples.

We can thank our male dominant western culture for all of this. I do think though that we are making strides towards more equality. The younger generations are far more open to allowing the genders to blend together. There's hope for the future!

Yup, it sure would be nice to go back in time and speak up. It just *blew* my mind that somebody could even joke like that. How rude!

The thing about negotiation really struck me... I remember when I read it thinking, "well that's it... I can't win". I mean, seriously, what do you do? (It's a bit harder for me to relate to the household stuff, since I live alone... !)

Hello, Strive4health.

Sexism is still alive these days, it is sad but true. It is getting better though. I am a male who works in nursing. I have been in this field since I was 19 years old. I have only been directly discriminated against a couple of times; but I tend to get assigned to do a lot of things just because I am a male.

The biggest thing I have done is just stay strong and prove I know what I am doing and that I am competent in my job. This is has shown through for me. I tend to receive excellent reviews and surveys. When I left my last job the whole crew I worked with threw me a going away party as well as the Director of Nursing offering me a PRN position.

Stay strong friend!

[Strive4health]

What frustrates me are the interviews. I can tell I'm not taken as seriously as a man.

I can understand where you are coming from. When I started my new job we had to do a 3 day clinical before we could start on the floor. The clinical instructor assumed I didn't know what I was doing just because of my gender.

Eventually I was asked how long I had been in the field and it turned out longer than any of the other people in the class. I also happened to be the only one to score a 100% on the clinical exams. People need to stop judging by anatomical features and by skill level instead.

Originally Posted by Strive4health

Lately it's been making me SO angry when people want to deny sexism in the workplace. Why won't people admit it's real and it does happen?

I've had interviews on the phone, and in person where the interviewer (a man) made it obvious through his body language or vocal tone that he viewed me as inferior. I've been treated like a "stupid girl" before, and when I share this with others it gets dismissed as a hallucination. I am NOT hallucinating!

I saw this when I worked in a female-dominated field before. I used to work in direct care with children and adults and saw how men were treated. Some of them were even treated like they were potential sexual molesters with less respect than their female counterparts. I have even talked to men who wanted to go into nursing or teaching younger children but decided against it despite a strong interest and talent for it. They said "I don't feel like being treated differently." Of course, who wants to be simply because they are a man or a woman?

This just makes me SO MAD! If a person has the ability, drive, motivation, and work ethic to make their company look good, who cares if they are a man or a woman? Why does it matter in an interview if they are a man or a woman if the meet/or exceed the qualifications? Grrr!!

Well I'm sorry to say it, but the majority of sexual abuse against children is perpetrated by men. So of course, it's human nature that people will be a little more cautious leaving their children alone with a man even though the vast majority of men would never dream in harming a child.

There are differences between the sexes. Part of the reason men are more assertive and negotiate higher wages is testosterone, having lot's more of it helps with this and many woman simply rather then asking, just keep quiet and complain in a passive aggressive way.

This idea of man and woman being 100% equal is just ridiculous though. We're a sexually dimorphic species and people need to remember that. The irony about feminism is that it was created by men, so all you feminists are still really being told what to do by a man.

[Strive4health]

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

Well I'm sorry to say it, but the majority of sexual abuse against children is perpetrated by men. So of course, it's human nature that people will be a little more cautious leaving their children alone with a man even though the vast majority of men would never dream in harming a child.

There are differences between the sexes. Part of the reason men are more assertive and negotiate higher wages is testosterone, having lot's more of it helps with this and many woman simply rather then asking, just keep quiet and complain in a passive aggressive way.

This idea of man and woman being 100% equal is just ridiculous though. We're a sexually dimorphic species and people need to remember that. The irony about feminism is that it was created by men, so all you feminists are still really being told what to do by a man.

I'm sorry, but where did your response come from? I'm not a feminist anyway, and my post has nothing to do with feminism. My post has to do with people who are competent and having the qualifications for a job being treated differently and/or poorly due to their gender.

I have NO idea where you think I said men and women aren't different. Wow did your response come out of left field!

Originally Posted by Strive4health

I'm sorry, but where did your response come from? I'm not a feminist anyway, and my post has nothing to do with feminism. My post has to do with people who are competent and having the qualifications for a job being treated differently and/or poorly due to their gender.

I have NO idea where you think I said men and women aren't different. Wow did your response come out of left field!

Sorry just assumed you were a feminist because they're usually the people moaning about this type of thing.

[Strive4health]

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

Sorry just assumed you were a feminist because they're usually the people moaning about this type of thing.

I talked about men AND women. I'm for both sexes being treated civilly at the workplace. I had no idea you needed to be a feminist to believe in treating people respectfully and professionally at the workplace.

My husband is a man, and has been treated differently and poorly by female coworkers and managers in spite of doing his job well. Feminism has nothing to do with this.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by Strive4health

No, I mean I am talking about in general, not a specific workplace situation.

Whenever I see anything, even something specific, I can not/do not personally want to do anything about I refocus on myself and what I am doing and want to do. The "glass" ceiling and women's wages, etc. are like airbrushed women in women's magazines or bad TV shows to me, not something that directly affects me or that I have to look at. There are so many things that are "unfair" or not the way I like or would do/arrange things but I do not accept that as my problem/responsibility at this time.

Yesterday I had a delivery person deliver something I was supposed to sign for but he blew me off. I told him I needed to sign for it, what was being delivered and his response was, "No it's not!" (like I do not know what I ordered/am having delivered :-) and then when I requested he stay while I opened the box to show him. He read the label on the box and it was from a company of letters (like RSHKNC) totally meaningless to either of us and used that as "proof" it could not be what I said it was and then walked/drove away.

Now I could call the delivery company and find out whether the delivery person was just more of a fool than I took him for or if the package was mishandled somewhere else in the process or if the company they picked up from were liars about what was in the package, etc. As it is, technically those ineligible for delivery of this product could get delivery and/or something could come out and the driver and delivery company would be very legally vulnerable and liable and I don't think the delivery company execs would like that?

However, I'm not in the mood to go through all that. I received delivery of what I ordered/paid for and it was completely legal for me, I cannot be even remotely endangered by the delivery. The delivery company and company picked up from and anyone before that are safe too, from THIS delivery (but not from later illegal deliveries possible because of this delivery or from fallout if anyone "official"/injured later finds out about this delivery).

I draw the line at what I want to do, how far I want to invest my time and effort into helping others fix their mistakes. I am not a bad person, I'm an extremely helpful person, more so than many people I know. My therapist commented on it once, said she wouldn't do "that" when I was telling a story of what I had done for a friend.

I have a friend who would probably call the delivery company just to get the driver in trouble for blowing him off and treating him disrespectfully. But the incident is over now, it cannot be corrected. That too may or may not blow up in the driver's face later if someone who "cares" more complains about his attitude. I do not feel bad about his attitude, it's his. I know I was correct but I do not have any great need (any more :-) to get the rest of the world to know/believe that or get an apology from him or whatever. I dealt with that particular problem in therapy 15+ years ago. I had a boss looking for me once when we had a multi-room/story office and when he finally found me he asked "Where were you?" and I told him and he immediately said, "No you weren't!" confusing heck out of me as I frantically tried to figure out where I was if I wasn't where I was? I know myself well enough to know I am where I am when I am there

[Strive4health]

Originally Posted by Perna

Whenever I see anything, even something specific, I can not/do not personally want to do anything about I refocus on myself and what I am doing and want to do. The "glass" ceiling and women's wages, etc. are like airbrushed women in women's magazines or bad TV shows to me, not something that directly affects me or that I have to look at. There are so many things that are "unfair" or not the way I like or would do/arrange things but I do not accept that as my problem/responsibility at this time.

I understand what you're saying, but what happens when they DO directly affect me? And they have.

I am not one to rant about the glass ceiling, lower wages for women, or a lot of those general broad topics that can't really be proven or have been proven to have reasons behind it. However, when I go into a job interview and I was selected to go in because they believed my qualifications met a certain set they were looking for, why should my sex matter? If they saw my sex on my resume based on my female first name, wouldn't they already know I was a woman?

[Pikku Myy]

Not sure how I ended up doing commercial "construction" project management 25 years ago as a female Talk about sexism.... It is getting better these days, but still there. At least there are a lot more protective laws and codes of conduct now. I believe it is human nature to a certain point, add ignorance. my two cents They will not call me "honey" if they want to get paid..lol

[Strive4health]

Originally Posted by Pikku Myy

Not sure how I ended up doing commercial "construction" project management 25 years ago as a female Talk about sexism.... It is getting better these days, but still there. At least there are a lot more protective laws and codes of conduct now. I believe it is human nature to a certain point, add ignorance. my two cents They will not call me "honey" if they want to get paid..lol

Haha! That's hilarious

You know what is funny, I've met another woman who worked in the commercial construction/engineering PM for just as long. She told me what she's had to do to be taken seriously.

[Jan1212]

I'm a nurse and we've only had 3 men with us out of 30 students. They were treated the same by us and our professors but, they've told us stories of how many times patients asked for female nurses outside of OB even, they still make more as an RN than us