What is a Cult?

I dunno...



Anyone?

Cheese and crackers!!!!! Don't think I could ever be open minded with the one who has written at the orange paper site. So full of bitterness. I have read one of the Big Books that this person seemed to quote and have to say perceptions and understandings can surely vary for sure.

I would hope that the science could develop definitive tests (Orange's 100 question test looks useful, there may be better ones I don't know) to determine what actually works without causing harm; and that cults could loose their appeal to the vulnerable looking for solutions to the problems in their lives.

It appears to me that A. Orange has accurately predicted the responses, so far, of those already indoctrinated believers in the 12-step program. That program has continued well beyond its originators and changed insignificantly it would appear.

While I can gladly support people's efforts to give up or modify harmful habits I can't in good conscience support the dogma and practices of cults that fail to verify with real science their claims of helping people solve problems. To do so wouldn't be support in my view. It seems to me 12-step programs fail that stipulation inherently. They have hurt people and made enemies in the process.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-snake_oil.html

~Down but not out yet.

Downs, how about saying, "I hate AA" and let it go at that?

I don't understand your need to "prove" to everyone that they are wrong(for attending AA) and you are right. Do you drink? Have you ever drank to excess? If you quit, how did you quit? Did you have a support system, if you quit? I'm curious, now, about your history with alcohol and I want some information concerning your personal experience with alcohol. Perhaps them, I'll be able to see some justification of your animosity.

One of my children, quit using drugs by going to NA. I have several friends who either go to AA or NA. None of them seem under any spell, whatsoever. None have given their life savings to the organizations. They all function quite well in their daily lives.

ah, and so it continues.

you made it personal, by bringing it here. now, if you can't handle being asked some simple questions because i'm trying to find out your reasons for this, so be it. i thought that you would answer them, otherwise i would not have asked them. you can dish it out, but can't handle being asked your person reasons for believing that AA is a cult.

and, it does go on.. pat

Down, I understand in one sense, where you are coming from on this, about AA. The main thing I have always strongly disagreed with about AA and NA is that you will never break totally free from being "an alcoholic" or "an addict." That philosophy is so totally opposite from what I believe that everyone can change, and, that God can do all things.

They use the prayer, but then forget the power behind it!

So, in that sense, that you can" never leave" AA or NA,[inference is because you will always be a drunk] yes, it does appear rather cultic, doesn't it?

Good point sky.

Here's the answer, in my opinion. For me, AA rocks. For others, AA sucks. Simple as that. Lets keep it simple and move on.

Rayna

It says in the Big Book, AA is not for everyone. It has helped millions recovery and so has NA. But it may not be for everyone. Some people may say a certain type of religion is a cult and others will say it is not. I remember hearing, "AA is just a crutch. Well for a cripple that ain't bad. It is like asking what is your favorite fruit? You will get alot of answers to this but what is most important is what YOU think. Knowbody forces us to go to a NA or AA meeting. I have been clean and sober for 4 years with the help of my higher power and have not gone to 1 AA or NA meeting. I have found a way that works for me, that is all that counts for me. It may not work for others but it does for me. To each their own. I guess going through my mind is why even ask a question like this. People will think what they want to think anyway. So no matter what way each of us are staying clean and sober, it works for us and is what keeps us that way.

Allan

Down, "the beat goes on" for some, not for all. You and I are getting long, after all! LOL

Hang in there, guy!

As I mentioned in another? thread... recent I mean RECENT studies have shown that all addictions are treated the same way by/in the brain.. so that means that any group that treats the basics of an addiction, would help anyone who has any type of addiction. The brain reacts the same, files the "addiction" exactly the same no matter what it is. Interesting to me. The steps are the same to beating it.

Maybe if you changed your tone he would answer, eh, Pat? Just a suggestion.

The horse is beaten enough eh?

I have concluded it is a cult in many regards. It brainwashes and teaches people to lie and attack anyone who dares to criticize it. I dislike being lied to as should others who value integrity.

12-step programs have always been Trojan horses in need of continuous exposing. Truth is support.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-big_lie.html
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-aalies.html
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://aadeprogramming.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-Step_Coercion_Watch/
http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?47+Duke+L.+J.+785
http://www.peele.net/bookstore/resisting.html
http://www.unhooked.com./index.htm
http://www.bee.net/cardigan/attic/guest09.htm

~Down

Thank you so much for feeling comfortable enough to share your viewpoints and opinions with us Down. I'm glad that this forum provides space for you to air your thoughts because they are important to you therefore important for us to hear.

Personally? If someone doesn't agree with me I don't tell them they've been brainwashed. That's just me and how I go about things. But after reading some of your links I can see how you've come to that belief and can respect that is your belief. I only wish you could respect ours if they differ from yours.

kindly,
__zh

p.s. your truth is your support. we'll try to remember that in the future to better able support you. Thank you for letting us know more about how you view this topic. This helps us better understand some your methods of communication.

I was able to read the other links and I have to say down your bringing this up and giving links has helped me understand a lot. Helps me understand a lot of my own discomfort, feeling torn and what I believe.
Thank you!
I imagine now that you have come to your own conclusion that you must feel a relief.

lrks

My belief is that good science based and verified rehabilitation can help while pseudo-scientific religion based bait and switch lies and progressive coercion of cult behavior, does harm to us all. By pushing lies as truth and swindling money from healthcare 12-step organizations and their front organizations pose a threat to real healthcare and the necessary factual science needed to actually solve problems instead of taking credit for placebo effects and spontaneous remissions.

~Down

Another cult list link I came across in my web surfing is at
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/
I wonder how the poll would read after people who had voted that aa isn't a cult read up on the critics sites or books.
~Down

I thought you said that you never read the survey you started?
Glad you are staying current with popular opinion.
81% to 18%, a landslide by any estimation.

For what it’s worth, I always go to your links and read the information there. The truth will set you free, that’s what they told me.

It used to really frustrate me when other people would not believe what I was telling them, no matter how loud I yelled it at them. I’m better about that now.

Your friend in this long, strange and relatively simple road trip,
Richard

“We are of the opinion that AA has helped many individuals in their fight against alcoholism, but we include this group because we believe there are other points of view; vital information and experiences that should be shared. The below links use terms we do not use ourselves; deprogramming and brainwashing to name a couple. And we certainly do NOT think that AA fits the BITE mind control model.

If you have an alcohol or drug problem, you should definitely seek out professional help. If you have been attending AA and it has been helpful to you, we do NOT suggest you abruptly stop going and change paths. There are many other successful approaches to helping people with drug and alcohol problems and we intend to add them to this page. If you have information you think should be included please send it to us.”

This is the opening statement on Down’s newest link, not in my opinion, not a wholly damning indictment of AA.

Simply on the road to the good stuff,
Richard

AA is far from a perfect program. IMO we can learn from our detractors. I have read a lot of the "AA is a cult" literature--the internet is full of it. They make some good points. Some of their more extreme proponets, however (Robert Warner from the Orange Papers for example) appear to be fanatic, humorless and single-minded--AA is BAD!!

AA works for me.

cult is far mor than just organization, Cult I know of takes more tham noral known fact.
Have you ever taken ....... never mind. Cult is more than just organization as you know it

cult is more than just words and even more than you protray. not just a leading of please do not . never mind

AA can be misleading to some but cult as I know it is nothing of AA. Taking of life and the blood for so called life that I know of cult. Baptized by anothers blood I know of cult. AA is not so.