What is a Cult?

I agree---REAL cults would laugh at the idea of AA being a cult....:-)

hope you're ok skylrks~hugz if they still feel safe from me~Down

I'm a little confused. I've been to AA and other 12 step programs following the same format. I've never felt specific pressure to have a specific higher power, as they seem to communicate a higher power is whatever you want (the group itself can be your higher power, as it is more powerful than yourself in terms of support; although I understand it does have underlying Christian principles.

Isn't AA really simply a support group? How important is the scientific process here? If a person stands up, admits he or she is an alcoholic, and gets a chip for being sober for 2 months, who cares if the process didn't strictly follow a scientific methodology?

If AA is a cult, than maybe Psych Central is also a cult. I know the philosophy of admitting you are helpless to solve the problem is a hard one for some, but, isn't it obvious that if you haven't solved it, you are pretty helpless at that point. I don't know, maybe I'm over-simplifying, but it seems to be teaching just a basic concept of humility with human frailty. Maybe the issue is one of ego, in terms of wanting to say "I used a tool and did it myself", not, I'm helpless, please help me. I understand that, the U.S. definitely socializes (especially men) to be self-sufficient, and the concept of reaching outside oneself seems foreign to that socialization.

I think anything can be over-done; if someone goes to 80 meetings a month at the expense of other responsibilities, maybe, after 3 years, there's too much dependancy, but, if meetings help someone to stay sober, where it wasnt' possible before, it's a positive thing, and if it doesn't work for an individual, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad organization.

In the end, admitting you are powerless to stop an addiction is not the same as not taking responsibility for one's problems, and I think that taking responsibility to do what is necessary to stay sober is the important issue.

To shadow kismet and anyone else who wonders how AA can be so popular if it is not helpful I'd say that faith healers have conned their way into popularity through out history with people who didn't know any better. They have been found to be a religion by a number of courts however much they deny it. Their effectiveness is less than 5% which is less than the rate at which people spontaneously wise up and quit or cut back without any assistance at all. The mortality rate of AA members is higher than of alcoholics and heavy drinkers who get no AA 'help".

AA and their spin off organizations have and continue to harm the health system with lies about their effectiveness and the swindling of insurance and tax dollars with their rehab clinics where people are often anything but free to go while being subject to sever mind control techniques.

Did you know AA hands down death sentences for refusing them?http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/coercion.htm

Maverick if you read through the links the answers to the things you are confused about are throughly answered along with more links to other programs that work better.

~Down

OK, Down,

I hope "down so long" becomes "up real soon"! Let me know how things go?

Hopin for the best...

Well there has been yet another "mysterious disappearance" of a major website critical of the 12-step cult. Fortunately the web has a way of finding information and foiling censors and squelchers of ideas no matter their reach and power to hold their monopolies on the "truth"

http://web.archive.org/web/200406041...Called_AA.html
http://web.archive.org/web/*hh_/oran...ge-aalies.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406060...e-big_lie.html
http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/coercion.htm

It maybe this second loss or website in the last year is just coincidental, I have not tracked down the causes, but it makes my suspicious of yet another problem with the abuse of power by the monopolies of "true believers" 'Truth'. Maybe I'm just being paranoid though based on being denied healthcare and guidance unless I tolerate 12-step mindcontrol bs(not helpful to me at all) I think AA people targeted orange for practical harassment via web hosts.


Down

Ok down---you "think" he was targeted--do you have proof? Your anti-12 step posts continue to be paranoid. Why are you so willing to take every anti-AA rant as the (pardon the expression-lol) God's truth?? You had a negative experience. I had a positive one. It saved my life--and the lives of many others. Nothing you say, quote, or copy changes that.

Many confuse or equate Belief with Truth. Truth is verifiable, Belief is merely an association of events like a beating by bullies and winning the lottery on the same day. Should we then hope to get set upon by bullies to make lottery tickets winners?

http://www.bee.net/cardigan/attic/guest09.htm

From the movie Up in smoke:
" We have developed a new alcohol treatment program: the Cheech'n'chong Treatment Program. It works like this: whenever you get cravings for alcohol, you put on a ballerina's tutu and slippers, and Mickey Mouse ears, just like Cheech and Chong in the movie "Up in Smoke." Then you jump up and down on one foot, while juggling five tennis balls, and reciting Shakespeare sonnets. Continue this procedure for as long as the cravings last."

"This simple program has never been known to fail, except for a few unfortunates who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves while wearing a tutu. "

In this darkest hour of our peril we can continue to have faith in lies or work finding truth through the ongoing verifiability of good science.

~Down

While you find your "truth" to be what works for you, we find OUR truth to work for us... You just don't get it, do you? It doesn't matter what you say, we have our own truth, which lies within NA/AA/12 Steps... If you can't accept us as we are, I'm sorry. You have your own truth and if we can accept you as you are, you should give us the same respect.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
BamaSurvivor said:
You have your own truth and if we can accept you as you are, you should give us the same respect.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

But isn't it down's choice to post his beliefs, too? For those who NA/AA/etc. doesn't work? NA/AA/etc aren't the only programs out there. While I don't necessarily agree with down, I don't believe he is being disrespectful. He keeps his beliefs confined to this thread. He doesn't respond to other threads about AA/NA/etc with negative posts. This forum isn't just for those who favor NA/AA/etc. It's for support of alcohol and substance abuse. Support by whatever means.

I respect your right to disagree with him. However, if you disagree, why not ignore the post? You have to make your own decisions. Informing yourself before making those decisions is part of life. What works for one, won't work for another. AA/NA works for you. Great!

I hate to see all this strife that could be simply ignored.

I have concluded it is a cult in many regards. It brainwashes and teaches people to lie and attack anyone who dares to criticize it. I dislike being lied to as should others who value integrity.

downs, i take this statement personally. it sounds to me, as if you are questioning the integrity of the people who believe in AA. i've been thinking about posting this and have decided that it does bother me enough to take it up with you.

i agree with the other posters. you believe what you want to and we'll believe what we want to. attacking people who have found success in AA seems to be coming from a very deep need to control. if you are comfortable with it, fine. i'm not. i had to speak my mind on this. pat

I wasn't going to come back to this thread but.....I have utilized my ignore feature and I wanted to offer that advice. We are struggling too much with our own life and staying sober to let someone affect us in any kind of negative way. There's no point in getting involved. I know I've let this thread get to me and it's negative and it's not fair to me. We can't change this situation, what can change is ourselves, I found the difference is the ignore user button or just not read this. Respect your own boundries. We're never going to stop the negativity in the world, but we can change whether we chose to read it and participate in it.

~Rayna