[spiritoday]

I’ve often wondered why Alcoholics Anonymous is so widespread when they have had such a low success rate. They used to have posted on their website it was 5%.

The twelve steps don’t specifically point to dealing with the underlying issues and behaviors that drive a person to want to use. So why is it so popular?

Are they so wide spread and popular because people can ease into getting real help? Or because it can distract people from have to work on the underlying issue? Like they don’t specifically have to find the underlying causes that drive them to using?

The twelve steps are awesome, they just don’t say to deal with the underlying problems that can drive a person to use. Like by asking the question, “What are you turning away from or denying that you have to cover up with drugs or alcohol?

[Moogieotter]

In working the steps with a good sponsor, most people very much deal with the underlying problems that can drive them to use.

Not sure about the 5%. How is success measured when recovery is viewed as a life long process w no real finish line?

So many people go to a meeting or two and bail or worse, are only there under court order.

I do have some challenges with AA but as a practical tool, a free program of experience strength and hope from other alcoholics, there is real value and thousands upon thousands of members with lasting and strong recovery. If someone really surrenders to the program and committs to say 90 meetings in 90 days, I'd give them way better than a 5% chance at longterm recovery.

Thanks,

moogs

[cloudyn808]

Aloha, Don't know where in the world you found the 5% quote? Its widely known that AA has the highest success rate of long-term recovery thats why so many other organizations pattern their programs after the twelve steps. Equally amazing is that its free... Of course no program will work if the person isn't committed to staying off the stuff. AA really doesn't focus much on the "why" someone abuses alcohol just that they do and its a problem for them. But... I guess I'm a little bias... it saved my life and I've been sober and clean from IV drug use for 34-years. Best wishes in your quest

[avlady]

maybe because you can go throughout your whole life going to it you can come and go as you please differrent times in your life when your drinking and when you decide not to.

[Nicky123]

AA does not work for everyone.....I reckon that a 5% success rate is rather overestimating it. I believe there is ALWAYS an underlying reason why we drink to excess whether we are daily drinkers or bingers. I think some of the 12 Steps are quite shaming (4,5,6,7)..and can reinforce the negativity we already feel about ourselves. Personally, I had some bad experiences in these rooms and would never recommend it, though I would never stop someone going either, it would be their choice.

[Mygrandjourney]

AA shouldn't be taken off of the table as a recovery program due to what the research says. It has many things going for it which is why it's been so successful and self sustaining over the years. Several of the traditions dictate that AA is resistant to scientific scrutiny, so the amount of research is pretty sparse, overall.
For example, while there are several treatment programs in my area, the ability to be admitted depends on payer source and funding. Some will take charity or have scholarships, but not all. They range in price from about $5000-$25,000/episode, depending on the level of care provided. With AA, there are around 1300 meetings weekly on all days and at a range of times that makes the program widely accessible to a great many problem drinkers. The meeting are essentially free, although they do accept donations.

[Ripose]

Quite simply AA is a cult and most people have the intelligence not to stay involved with them. AA people think of themselves as victims and as such place all their reliance on the program and not on themselves which keeps them in the program in perpetuity.

They have the lowest success rate for a reason. If you want better odds watch a quit smoking video and apply it instead to drinking!

Thank you, Ripose ... Good Posting & It Needed To Be Said ...

I couldn't stomach the "powerless" part, I am not powerless! I can make the decision to not do damaging things to my body. And If I can't, then who can? ... NOBODY!

I will take charge of my life choices and quit blaming it on everyone and everything!

I certainly can't help what was done to me in my past, but I don't have to repeat it upon myself, and I sure as hell can make better choices that will help determine a healthier present and future for me!

[ManOfConstantSorrow]

Interesting question, difficult to answer it seems: Does Alcoholics Anonymous Work? - Scientific American

[Moogieotter]

Hey,

Yeah AA is definitely not for everyone. Not sure about the idea that the members are stupid or lack intelligence can be backed up by any real data.

As far as being a cult or having issues with the concept of "powerless", I would generally think that those who have issues with these concepts are perhaps not desperate enough to get sober or are not even alcoholics themselves. The program acknowledges this to newcomers by singling out a specific message to people who "want what we (Sober AA members) have, and are willing to go to any lengths to get it." by offering a pretty simple program.

For me, I was at the end of my rope, and was willing to go to "any lengths" to get sober. This included joining a cult or acknowledging powerlessness, and even completely changing my perspective on spiritual matters. My old beliefs, like AA being a cult or that I was not "powerless" continued me on a path of miserable drunkenness that would have led to death or worse.

I completely understand those who reject the notion that AA is of value and has helped hundreds of thousand or more worldwide recover from alcoholism. When I was in active alcoholism, I too would make cynical comments and cast doubt beyond my own personal beliefs about AA to others. Looking back this was all part of my journey.

How is your journey treating you?

Thanks,

moogs

I'm really glad that AA works for 5-10% of the people who are successful with it. I read another statistic that said it was successful about 35% of the time, which is probably more accurate (I hope).

The one thing I remember most about the first group I participated in was this little stone in the garden with the engraving, "Dedicated To Those Who Didn't Make It". Yet when I inquired as to how many don't make it, nobody seemed to know or either they simply weren't willing to answer. And with that small a success rate - be it 5, 10 or 35% ... No Wonder!

However, it isn't the "only" way to get sober and stay sober, and for some people the "christian" & "cult" like mentality of the AA program can be more damaging than helpful, especially for those of us who are recovering from abuse that involved us being "powerless" while being ritually abused, gaslighted & brainwashed in and by our families of origin and overly zealous and supposedly "religious" churches and spiritual institutions.

I don't see this reality as being cynical at all ... It simply would not work for many of us with C-PTSD that also developed an addiction or substance abuse issue to cope with the horrid abuses we were trapped in while growing up.

With that said, all it took for me was to sign an agreement with my therapist that I would abstain during treatment. I felt so much better not imbibing, that even when I'm taking a break from therapy, I still honor the agreement and JUST DON'T GO THERE!

Of course, not everyone is strong enough to do that without a really good support group, which AA can provide, but with that being said, there is nothing worse than the AA Nazis who like to get into their little "sponsor" positions and use those positions to further abuse those who've already had enough abuse in their lives!

THIS is based on my own personal experience with more than one AA program and is exactly why I rejected the "program" - because that's exactly what it felt like - that I was having my power taken away and once again being "programmed" (brainwashed & gaslighted) by a bunch of maladjusted miscreants that were unhappy with their own progress and could only feel good by abusing those of us that were encouraged to "choose" a sponsor in order to be successful. @#$%! THAT!

Since one size doesn't fit all, here's a handful of alternatives to AA ...

https://www.hellosundaymorning.org/
LifeRing Secular Recovery
https://rational.org/index.php?id=1
Self Help Addiction Recovery | SMART Recovery®
www.sossobriety.org
Women for Sobriety, Inc.

My advice is to find what works for you, and to not let anyone undermine or sabotage your efforts ...

Including yourself!

Sincerely,
Pfrog!

[Moogieotter]

Hi Pfrog,

Thanks for your perspective. I did not relate the idea that perhaps PTSD sufferers with ritual or cult-like religious based abuse in their past might not be a good fit for recovery through AA.

I certainly am envious that all it took for you to get sober was a commitment to your therapist. For me, even a $30,000 6 week in patient rehab did not work. That got me to 100 days even working with AA.

It does sound like you went to some groups that did not jive with your mojo. And there are definitely some over controlling sponsors and dogma spewers to deal with from time to time. I can see how this might lead you and the other poster to judge AA members as unintelligent or "maladjusted miscreants" - while almost all AA members have challenges, I would be willing to guess that most are better adjusted in sobriety through the program than they were in active alcoholism.

I absolutely agree that it is not for everyone. I just do not understand the passion for which you and some other oppose it to the point of putting people with whom it is successful down. If AA works for some - great for them, and does not work for others, like you suggest - seek an alternative solution.

For example, if CBT is ineffective for you, and you have better success with DBT - would you make a thread slamming CBT? AA is just another tool that is effective for at least a few people in recovering from alcoholism. Or take a medication, let's say AAPs are not working for you, but some people swear by them - would you make a "Down with AAPs - people who take them are unintelligent maladjusted miscreants!" That's the part I don't relate to.

Glad to have such a detailed and fruitful discussion. Thanks,

moogs

Sure thing, moogs! ... Stay Strong & Stay Sober! ... I shall do the same!

[emwell]

Did someone say cult?
Did I hear brainwashing?
Sign me up.
my brain could use some washing

To each his own I guess.
If it works for you fantastic.
If it doesn't, find something that does.
You won't know what will work for you unless you try it. and not just a half hearted attempt, an all in I am going to die if I don't attempt.

But alternatives should be offered when you are seeking treatment. I felt pressured to join AA, because at the time that was the only program that had any type of success. I was wicked anti AA for very personal reasons, but I used what worked for me and left the rest. I did very very well for a very very long time. Sometimes you just outgrow things.

Seeing as though AA is anonymous, where is this 5% recovery rate coming from? I find it hard to believe it is that low.
Show me stats from other groups.

And how can any stats be trusted. Drunks and addicts are not known for their honesty.

[Perna]

As the excellent link ManOfConstantSorrow posted: Does Alcoholics Anonymous Work? - Scientific American explains, it's probably more 40% than 5, about what many other professional programs get but unlike the professional programs, it doesn't cost anything and is a do-it-yourself option. I like that when working on changing myself. The lower number probably comes from the number of people who drop out of the program versus those who initially enter. Longevity in the program has more to do with success than just trying it, like with therapy; lots of people enter/try therapy.

[LifeGetsBetter]

AA worked for me. I tried everything else to stop drinking and just couldn't put down that drink. AA was a last resort. As a non-believer, I had concerns about the higher power concept. But, I stuck around and got sober; haven't had a drink of alcohol in 13 years. I'm still an atheist, but respect my AA friends who rely on the supernatural to get them through.

While I'm not as active in AA as I used to be, I still get to one meeting a week and am treasurer of the group.

[notz]

I was a miserable, wretched mess when I reached out for help. I had alienated everyone in my life and was suspicious and skeptical of anyone who said they wanted to help. But I knew I needed something 'cause I sure couldn't keep going the way I was going.

AA was what I used. I'm 22 years sober and still hate the notion of powerlessness and the whole higher power thing. I just take it day by day.

[jwmann2]

Originally Posted by spiritoday

I’ve often wondered why Alcoholics Anonymous is so widespread when they have had such a low success rate. They used to have posted on their website it was 5%.

The twelve steps don’t specifically point to dealing with the underlying issues and behaviors that drive a person to want to use. So why is it so popular?

Are they so wide spread and popular because people can ease into getting real help? Or because it can distract people from have to work on the underlying issue? Like they don’t specifically have to find the underlying causes that drive them to using?

The twelve steps are awesome, they just don’t say to deal with the underlying problems that can drive a person to use. Like by asking the question, “What are you turning away from or denying that you have to cover up with drugs or alcohol?

AA meetings allow recovering alcoholics a platform for discussion and camaderie with other former addicts. Once someone leaves an addiction treatment center, one of the things they're asked to do is attend 90 straight days of AA or NA meetings which is very hard to do but it greatly decreases the likelihood of relapse. But you're right. These meetings only touch the physical side of addiction and not the mental side so their success rates can be imperfect. It really depends on the work ethic of the addict and how badly they want sobriety.

[Mygrandjourney]

Originally Posted by emwell

Did someone say cult?
Did I hear brainwashing?
Sign me up.
my brain could use some washing

To each his own I guess.
If it works for you fantastic.
If it doesn't, find something that does.
You won't know what will work for you unless you try it. and not just a half hearted attempt, an all in I am going to die if I don't attempt.

But alternatives should be offered when you are seeking treatment. I felt pressured to join AA, because at the time that was the only program that had any type of success. I was wicked anti AA for very personal reasons, but I used what worked for me and left the rest. I did very very well for a very very long time. Sometimes you just outgrow things.

Seeing as though AA is anonymous, where is this 5% recovery rate coming from? I find it hard to believe it is that low.
Show me stats from other groups.

And how can any stats be trusted. Drunks and addicts are not known for their honesty.

A cult and brainwashing suggest some level of involuntary coercion. AFAIK, most 12 step programs are voluntary in nature; no one kidnaps members and takes them off to be "reprogrammed". I like your sense of humor!

[emwell]

Originally Posted by Mygrandjourney

A cult and brainwashing suggest some level of involuntary coercion. AFAIK, most 12 step programs are voluntary in nature; no one kidnaps members and takes them off to be "reprogrammed". I like your sense of humor!

Thank you.
I need to hear that sometimes.
I must confess.
25 years ago, Cult and Brainwashing is what I heard AA being called. The joke is not mine and came from AA originally. well maybe not all of AA, but I heard it at meetings I attended. I don't think you will find it in the Big Book.

It amazes me that people so often talk about 'success rates' without first defining success...

Consider:
An alcoholic who abstains from alcohol, doesn't get help, falls into a depression.
A drug addict who gets clean but drinks once a week.
An addict who gets clean and sober but slips once without any serious consequences...

It is impossible to have a success rate without any definition of success! Furthermore, there is no reliable way of testing success. Even if they did do follow ups (which they don't) there is no way to know the reliability of the responses (or that there wasn't a difference between those who chose to answer and those who didn't).

Success rates are invented. The only question is if the program works for you... 12 steps do a lot of good for a lot of people but do not suit everybody's needs.

Probably, also, they are prevalent because they do not have the same funding issues that other groups have. I have been to SMART and 16 step meetings that were going great... until the funding for the counselor who lead it vanished.

12 steps often work closely with churches and other charities (especially with the religious undertones) that help with funding issues, and there is no paid leader.

I had a psychiatrist say that the 12 steps do work because of the social contact, not for any other reason, but still convinced me to go (because I was moving back to a place where there werent other options).

I hate that the issue is so polarizing. There are other options, basically, my point was...