Strange question........

I was reading somthing Chrisitna86 had written about this being a place for people with APD to get support .. and i was wondering .... what can we do to support you? to help you "fit" i guess.. dunno .......... do you even want to fit?

Also i was wondering if appropriate to share here - what an ASP may look for in a target? wrong word? partner? hmmm im having trouble wording this - but i think if we knew then we coudl help by not being targets - does that make any sense.....

if the 2nd part is innaproprite to ask - then please ignore - no offence meant . Ive just been reading the posts here and started to wonder...

P7

Considering I'm the only psychopath who admits to having psychopathy and one of only a very few antisocials who admits to having ASPD on this site ... well, it would be nice to have others aboard...

One of the main problems I have with ASPD support forums is that many people use that space to ... ehem... "explain" ... how they've been victimized by antisocials in their life and to empathize with others who have also been victimized by antisocials. That's not to undermine their suffering or imply that they shouldn't be allowed to discuss their feelings on the issue. However, there are more appropriate forums for them to do so. An ASPD forum should be for those who have ASPD... On the other hand, as I am the only outspoken psychopath and antisocial that posts often in the forums, it's unrealistic to think this would ever be a forum for psychopaths and antisocials to discuss their problems or whatever they feel like discussing... unless I want to sit here and twiddle my thumbs by my lonesome... But that's not to say that psychopaths and antisocials don't congregate in forums and discuss issues. It has been done... at a place called psychforums.

So, should a group of psychopaths and antisocials decide to congregate here and discuss issues... In order for us to feel comfortable and to be able to openly discuss our thoughts and problems while keeping the rest of the community safe... It would need to be moderated quite differently from the rest of the site and the description should be slapped with a warning label reading something along the lines of: "Abandon all hope ye who enter here..." Just kidding. Sort of. But a warning would be appropriate, such as, "Topics may trigger." And the designated moderator would need to be someone who has a great deal of understanding of the antisocial and psychopathic mind and is also capable of making rational decisions, remaining calm, and is comfortable with heated arguments (ehem... *whistles and points to self*).

Where the rules might need to be bent a little... Threads that go off topic. During my lengthy stay at psychforums, I have never before seen a group of individuals who had such a great deal of trouble staying on topic. And they usually had a very rational reason for allowing the topic to derail: it was boring; no one wanted to discuss it, so we moved onto something else. Even among psychopaths in everyday life, I've noticed their very random and jumpy conversations. Also, the term "appropriate content" may need to be loosely defined. Arguments and "respect for members"... Psychopaths and antisocials love to argue, and we love to discuss controversial topics. You must understand that we don't apply such strong emotional connotation to certain topics as most people do, so we can discuss (and argue) such topics with ease. We also like to insult people. This doesn't mean that we're not respecting one another. On the contrary, I'd feel very disrespected if a psychopath or antisocial didn't engage in a debate with me. Given freedom to express ourselves, we're a very blunt and sarcastic people.

It worked quite well in psychforums. However, the mods were still not keen on us arguing with one another so often or going off topic. Although, we suspect that this is due to nonpsychopaths jumping in on the conversations, getting offended, and reporting us to the mods.

I'm not ignoring the "choosing a target" question, but it deserves my full attention and I need to step out for a moment.

i think there is a kind of curiosity about people who are blind, or deaf, or have no compassion,,, we just want to pry, never thinking that we are no help and can rarely understand,,,

hmm pry? maybe .... i guess we can never truly understand others unless we can walk in their shoes -

i guess Myers - as you say - you are the only one here that has stated they are APD- so you probably would be here talking to yourself if others werent here and im sure you'd be bored wiht that... and in our own way most here have tried to be supportive

so maybe in a way we are supporting you ?

I have found your posts interesting and informative exploring your reasons for anger especially so and i guess thats why im still here ... if this in any way offends you because i am not APD then let me know - no offence wil be taken at my end i assure you -

and you didnt really say what we could do to support you.... or i missed it .. apart for find another APD and im not sure im able to do that

anyway Myers - the more i think about it the more i think the 2nd part of my post was probably intrusive -

take care P7

On the contrary, I know quite a few individuals that would be willing to join if they knew they could express themselves openly and had something to discuss. However, one problem with this is that most moderators and admin are volunteers who are not trained to deal with the antics of the common antisocial and psychopath and don't really understand our nature, thus there is often friction between the two groups. Also, the non-antisocials and non-psychopaths who wander into the ASPD forums are occasionally offended by the nature of the conversation and the cavalier way with which the antisocials and psychopaths discuss said conversation. This was the problem we had in psychforums...

That's not to say every pro-social non-psychopath should stay out of the forum. During my stay at psychforums... The kind folks who wanted only to discuss things with us and ask questions were certainly welcome, and they usually enjoyed the conversations if they didn't take the blunt and sarcastic posts too seriously. It's the same way for me here. I certainly enjoy discussions with non-psychopaths and being asked questions about myself and psychopathy in general. You all are also very supportive. However, there were also a number of people who came to the ASPD forum to discuss their antisocial or psychopathic significant other and how utterly horrible said S.O. was. Or, on some occasions, they came only to discuss how awful antisocials and psychopaths are in general. Needless to say, this didn't garner much sympathy from the antisocials and psychopaths who, feeling rather insulted, retorted with witty banter. But this reaction upset those people, so they went to the admin with word of how rude we were.

The only reason I'd feel more "welcome" with fellow antisocials and psychopaths is that I'd feel more comfortable "taking the mask off." We have our own way of supporting each other, and that usually involves simply being able to talk openly and relate to one another. Needless to say, sympathy and empathy never come into play. To any average bystander, it'd probably look like we were fighting. But that's just our way of venting, or having an outlet for all that antisocial behavior and a place where others understand and accept that behavior. And this behavior could be harmful to pro-social non-psychopaths, so I refrain from doing that here.

Sorry, I had a vision of how this could work, and I wanted to share it.

How can non-antisocials help support me? Through conversation. I really like talking, and it helps me sort things out.

It wasn't intrusive at all. I've mentioned the process of choosing a target before in other posts, and I hope people benefit from knowing how the process works...

In general, psychopaths look for a loner with low self-esteem and high empathy. These traits are what indicate how vulnerable a person is to being victimized, and they are perceived by psychopaths through the potential victim's body language and facial expressions. And once spotting a target, the psychopath, or any person with ill-intentions, will size the target up by testing their boundaries.

I do know the specific motion cues in a person's gait that indicate vulnerability, but I'm having trouble translating it into layman's terms, so I'll have to get back to you on that. But, basically, it's lack of fluidity.

And I agree, it is hard to find a euphemism for "target"...

So what's the difference then between a psychopath and a NYer?

BTW... despite being in exile in indiana I am a NY through and through.
OK, and I can't resist a good banter with you Myers!

alas, this would be one of those OT moments... dang it!

Back to the discussion at hand....

i agree and i guess that comes under the "it is what it is " banner

Thanks Myers.

waiting...waiting...waiting....

My guess would be high empathy helps keep them hooked. Using their sympathy is also a very powerful lure.
I know the gaits and body postures too but can only recognize it when I see it. It is not something I have words for. Typically I can see poor boundaries in a person long before I have any direct contact with them. But, I am lazy and don't really intend or have a need to do anything with the information... So I much rather have some one else reveal the information. You would also be surprized at how much you can get a person to tell you from across the room.

I used to volunteer as a youth leader on an intense religous retreat for teens. The directors of the weekends learned that I could predict those who would have strong emotional reactions and would need extra support as well as those who would disclose abuse histories. I could usually have them figured out just watching them come from their car into the church. Could sort the liberals from the conservatives rather quick too... but that was a sheer survival skill... Man they can get heated when you lock them in a church together for 4 days!
Once you learn the signals noticing them almost becomes second nature, at least it did for me. That, unfortunately makes it difficult for me to find words for it. It does however make people watching a lot more interesting.
I also got offered a job as a psychic once because the person thought I must have some kind of sixth sense to be able to pick up so much about people. That and he liked staring at my *****.

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Low self esteem i understand - easier to manipulate - but why high empathy?

Individuals with high empathy are most likely to go out of their way to help others and expect little in return.

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can you give me an example of how a boundary would be tested? invading body space perhaps? and seeing if they back off?

That's one way. Borrowing money, bringing up subjects that they're uncomfortable with, using their things, showing up at their house uninvited, and so forth.

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I would be interested to hear the non laymans terms if you wish to share....

A few things are... Length of stride, unevenly shifted weight in stride, how high they lift their feet while walking, tilting their head, slouching, downward gaze, use of gestures, etc. But this is only in walking. There are a plethora of other cues in everyday body language and facial expressions that indicate lack of confidence or loneliness. Not to mention verbal communication...

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and would some of these visual que's be; lack of eye contact? tense muscles in a nervous sort of way(not a fight type of way,) the large body space they keep between you and them (safety Zone) ? they might be fringe dwellers - being at the outside of a group and non partipating? do any of these ring true.....

Yes, those are but a few.

lovely place for me to jump back in i'd say. hiya mike!

i'm one of the "undesireables" from psychforums, just fyi.

i'm diagnosed aspd... and have been that way for as long as anyone can remember. can't remember which one is the "politically correct" term on teh interwebz at the moment... socio or psycho. but yeah, that's the one that's me.

so, on to the topic at hand, yes?

what does a psychosocio whatever look for in a target, and how do we see it?

seems y'all have a resident expert already in attendance. i can't speak for "our people" lol... but for myself, i just shoot for "friendly" in general circumstances, and i use that to get in close enough to determine whether or not the individual even has anything i want in the first place. once i've determined that someone has something of value to me, i begin "probing"... testing boundaries in the ways already mentioned.

now this "probing" can come in many different flavors and strengths depending on what it is i want from them. for instance: if i want money, i may start easy with a conversation about someone that recently borrowed money from them... see how they feel about it... were they paid back? how do they feel about being paid back... or not? if i want entertainment... i may just feel them out for weak points... to be used later. if i notice something specific i want, i may try to see how much it means to them to keep it... just to measure and determine how best to get it, or how likely it will be to be noticed if it just "disappears".

its always different. and it almost always involves getting intimate with people one way or another. i guess, in short, its easiest to say that if there are any 'hard and fast' cues i look to, then they would be very subtle and entirely dependent on the situation. its hard to say what "general" cues would be of help to someone other than don't be an obvious patsy...

Yes, but we're a proud lot, and arguably the most interesting.

I honestly am cringing at the question/questions I am about to ask......cause who the he ll wants to be a victim?

....But I am also extremely fascinated with NPD,ASPD And Sociopathy....For reasons I don't have a clue about.

Since a very very very young age.(no doubt as a response to my youth and the experiences entailed therein)...Psychological thrillers appealed....(tho' the depictions were mostly not textbook)

It may boil down to the intellectual ,though obvious dark psychology of it and the depth of the inner workings of the disorders.

What I want to ask...is why the F would a person....knowing someone has this dx... seek these types out to converse with and to "hang out" with.Cause I am fascinated.

I dare say that in regard to myers in particular....I have mad respect for the fact that he "puts it out there" exposed and curious and well informed " as well as the fact that clearly ...I have never seen him appear to be displaying actions indicative of finding a victim.Though I am clearly not a mind reader.

But ....and this is NOT a lure..."let me be very very clear on this".....cause I am now hyper aware of my wording and the revelation this has of my psyche and the inferred vulnerability it implies...yet ...I say,don't take me for a fool....what I wanted to ask is where in the psychological realm does the attraction to this personna "type" fit into the psychology of the types of ppl who ...I dare say seek these individuals out without realizing it and further ...find themselves attracted to relationships which are clearly abusive even to the level of role play and a submissive stance?

I just find that there is a very deep psychological web I stand within at the moment and feel very miffed that I am having these complexities in my own personna.

I also up until a few months back never went very deep within my own patterns and inner workings to have the awareness that these complexities exist with in me personnally.

Can anyone comment?Preferably those w/ the dx...or other well read /serious intellectuals.

I would appreciate any mature responses ~WO.olfsong

@ WolfSong: :P no ruling me out of the conversation by limiting it to "mature" responses.

I get sucked in by the "game". For me it is an interpersonal game of chess. There are very few people with high enough IQ to interact with that don't have some kind of pathology

@ Myers, yes I do consider you among the most interesting

THat's it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..........You said why...the relief from reading that is enough to make me cry! ...But then,when do I NOT cry?By the way he said he will answer me l8tr...and I honestly can't wait.Cause I am curious to get an opinion on this.And dammit Omerzzz why you post such tiny portions when I am so hungry ....your is another mind I enjoy!

Society today glorifies aggressive behavior and callousness, especially in the corporate, criminal, and athletic subcultures, for but a few example. Corporations demand their employees be rational and aggressive with respect to methods of conducting business. Criminals, obviously, promote antisocial behavior. And athletes are taught by their coaches and peers to be fearless, show no weakness or emotions, and that aggression will lead to victory. Also, the media portray violence as the solution to all problems and masculinity as suave, domineering, and strong. Needless to say, psychopaths are the epitome of this type of behavior. It's no wonder why people find us fascinating.

Also, I think most people have a curiosity for things and people that they're unfamiliar with.

I am sorry to disagree Myers ....as ...clearly ...I am fond of you..

I am feeling it is more intense,...more lovely,...and...sheerly deeper than that.

But I suppose that ...There is a difference ..in that my fondness of you comes from your ability to expose your inner workings....I find that fascinatingly brazen and much more honest than the masks "normals" wear.

(I prefer a person to wear a label ...F off...than the meek cheshire cat grins one receives in public or ...the work place.......)

Then...we have bridger....and the inner workings of the psychology of that entire ....for lack of a better term.....web ......of complexity.Which....I personally find...entirely resonates in the core of my being.

Though I haven't a clue why.I find it to be darkly poetic ,but ...I am not in tune with the causes of that.I find myself ......sad from the ..... shadowy beauty of the entire thing that Clarisse Thorn came to share. .......and am sadly left in limbo.....because this creates an entire dialogue of questions within...which are only a microscopic inner realisation.

arggghhhh.....and so the wolf is left to the prison of ponderances ......which are ...her mind.

WO.olf

Omers......?Did U include yourself in the DX darling?.........Ahhhhhh.....a game of Chess.....Yes...But for me the game is discovery and the dialogue....the word play......the observance of the moves.Let me be clear..."I have an attraction to".....I am not however...one of you.I am incapable of that.I am on the polar opposite spectrum of personna......and likely the victim.But not a very good victim...my perception ...paranoia....and observance.....is vigilant.....as my mother always plugged.......Never never never mistake kindness for weakness .......she said that because I have been a victim ...of her and many....and wanted to point out that I survived.I survived her....And many more.I'm still here despite my deepest pondrance.~Wo.olfsong

By the way myers ....I agree...we are primed to applaud these traits....society promotes it....fathers promote it among males...and most movies have applied some of the traits in the main characters as well.Kids growing up love the characters of cartoons ,scary movies,and gangster mentalitiy (pretty sure road runner and sylvester the cat were aspd)...and teen and younger type movies have the evil and good main characters...Alot of boys look to the dominant one to learn masculinity....and in fact pressured by society to be such...or not be male.Criminals are an excellent example ..in that they first go to jail as a drug dealer or thief...and within the confines of the justice system...have no choice but to adopt behaviors...tactics...they learned in the system to survive financially or physically.Eventually..(since most enter "the system" )at such a young age....15,-23....and their moral conscience is still quivering..the traits are engrained w/out their awareness.Think of the music videos and gaming most young ppl are allowed to observe.Prison is also the "new" mental health ward with all of the mental hospital that have been closed or defunded.....it goes on and on.....

hmmmm i'll pretend i didnt read that .

Quote by omers..
I get sucked in by the "game". For me it is an interpersonal game of chess. There are very few people with high enough IQ to interact with that don't have some kind of pathology

I love chess

very true

[Criminals are an excellent example ..in that they first go to jail as a drug dealer or thief...and within the confines of the justice system...have no choice but to adopt behaviors...tactics...they learned in the system to survive financially or physically

and they learn skills and make aquantances that may lead them further into the land of misdeeds purely from a need for survival or the adoption of allies.

.Prison is also the "new" mental health ward with all of the mental hospital that have been closed or defunded.....it goes on and on.....[/quote]

a good point - a lot of prisoners have some form of mental disarray - but then dont we all if you dont "fit in " then its easy to get angry with "the herd" and want to cut out what you think should be yours. jmo

anyway ive gone on long enough - but as you can see this conversation sparked my interest.

P7

the last part again ........ any pointers?

thanks for sharing that with us

P7

..........I laughed...pondered....cried....learned.....and quaked for more....(((Phoenix)))))))Ty for this! I intend to reply more in depth a wee later ...as I am set upon preparing a paper for a guest speak....Be well...hit y'all up l8tr!....~WO.olfsong~

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i'm one of the "undesireables" from psychforums, just fyi. why undesireable? lol. Undesireable in that i and others with similar agendas and methods as myself have been banned (under multiple identities no less). I would say that as the admin there have made it abundantly clear that they do not desire me. What does a psychosocio whatever look for in a target, and how do we see it? But for myself, i just shoot for "friendly" in general circumstances, and i use that to get in close enough to determine whether or not the individual even has anything i want in the first place. a very good point - after all if they dont have anything you want - you wouldnt waste your time right . precisely once i've determined that someone has something of value to me, i begin "probing"... Testing boundaries in the ways already mentioned. Now this "probing" can come in many different flavors and strengths depending on what it is i want from them. For instance: If i want money, i may start easy with a conversation about someone that recently borrowed money from them... See how they feel about it... Were they paid back? How do they feel about being paid back... Or not? so if they had lent money and not had it paid back and were angry abuot it - that would make them a bad mark? not necessarily... It is just good to know. For instance, do i go for small sums over a prolonged period? Or do i hold off and appear to follow the "high road' of not borrowing, only to hit them up later for a lump sum before bailing out? and if they said - oh well thats how it goes -you dont lend money unless you can afford ot lose it - it would be - "hello sucker" ? rofl. I've yet to meet my "sugar momma" with that attitude, but yeah... It would be cool. if i want entertainment... I may just feel them out for weak points...to be used later. im interested...in what ways would you do this? Is there a particular pattern you would follow - i.e., lonleness first ...hmm it would probably be whatever showed itself first i would imagine. A small crack beign explored and turning into a giant crevasse. you answered before i could. You are exactly correct. Wherever i see a target of opportunity, a potential "crack" as you put it, i'll just file it away and beginning inserting the wedge by degrees when i see the opportunity... Until *blammo* i walk away laughing. This is not just useful for entertainment, though. There are countless ways to exploit weakness. It all comes down to what do i want out of the situation and what is the best way to achieve those results. if i notice something specific i want, i may try to see how much it means to them to keep it... Just to measure and determine how best to get it, or how likely it will be to be noticed if it just "disappears". im interested in how you would ascertainthe last part... If you care to share there are really sooo many ways to tell that sort of thing... Mention the object, have a conversation about it. Note their response to the initial question- is it a "oh yeah! I'm so proud of that piece" of is it a "what? Oh, that! I had almost forgotten it was there" not so much verbally, but simply by paying attention to their demeanor when the object is mentioned, handled, relocated within the room. Just various combinations of little things will tell you. its hard to say what "general" cues would be of help to someone other than don't be an obvious patsy...

thanks for responding to Myers invitation, Kao. you write very well also, of the perceptual orientations of persons with no empathy. having grown up with more than one person with ASPD's, i am not fascinated, and look askance at any advances. but i must say, that Myers has been the very epitomy of social grace and a well spring of reliable information. i hope your stay with us is cordial and we all benefit by it~. best wishes, ,Gus

Kaotic.....this saddens me.I honestly have carried a torch that all people are inherently good.That everyone....regardless of any and all faults have something valuable inside.This has made it impossible to hold a grudge...to not forgive in a heart beat...to not always fall back to rescuer ...especially of hard arses...(take MnM for example)...I always have stood on a soap box and sworn...inside every person is good.If they are mean or bad it is cause they are hurt and love can be the bandage.Whether I like them or not is aside from the point.I have very much enjoyed Myers cause he loves his wife the best way he can...he is a daddy to his child....he has made an effort to take what was dealt him and turn it useful.to be informative and answer questions bared..but this....I still cannot fathom.This exists?I will never harass you...I hope you feel welcome...and that your stay at pc...provides people with valuable insight.....I feel NO judgement toward u ...but my heart dropped to read...because...here it is in black and white.I read it ...yet I cannot digest it.I find it to be that I am left with no feeling in response whatsoever ...only because I cannot wrap my mind around the things u said.Maybe in time.I can't fathom...anyways...welcome to p.c...may your stay be unharrassed ...may you behave...and may ppl learn a bit of psychology from their conversation.I personally feel terribly guarded...and again will be hyperaware.This kinda breaks my heart and makes me wonder if there will ever be hope for my son.But then he has an actual brain disease...he is schizophrenic.It can never be all his fault cause he is ill.I will always love him!

Phoenix.....

Um....hmmmm ...to the opening reply @ 7:57am...I will do hopscotch over that one...but will answer you anything in p.m

Exactly...A tiger in an enclosure is a fascinating and complex creature which had led many to study it. "Primal beauty" ...Aye

Aye ..."their disorder and our own" somehow revealed in our observance.

"previous cycles of abuse" DO create a draw later in life.Yes,but i think if the draw...per se...originates in youth we have in many cases been required to 'embrace our abuser' and many of us have that set in our heads as equaling 'normal' ...mom/dad figure.You'd be surprised what "psychological conditioning" can do for instance to a monkey in captivity in studies.Which....don't get me on my band wagon or crying like a baby bout that...ugh


wow!...scary "mask behind the mask behind the mask" I feel really insecure in my trust atm.

been" taken for a fool" my whole life phoenix...lol

"World of doms and subs" Would love to be a sub...part time....would require times where I walked away to digest and reflect...and heal no doubt.I'd require a previous agreement...aye.Again ...I think this stems from the psychology of my youth.Couldn't be just ANY dom...guaranteed.

Aye "the endless opening of doors in my psyche" is the portion of life I
have reached...as a numerologist...I am aware of the cyclical rhythm of life and this corresponds with the current status of my lifes "chart"

A P7 will do in this discussion....the exchange I have had with you is intelligent non-judgemental,and supportive.((((((P-7)))))& humor is a plus...it doesn't take anything from the discussion.

"further investigation" requires a source

I don't hate the word victim...any more than I'd hate to be "poor"(at 12 I had to find food anyway I could)Painful experiences are rich....they develop character...creating things in me ...that had I lived a sheltered life....I couldn't fathom.If I had a delete button...I'd remove my sons mental illness...nothing further.
~WOolf

i really must say, this is an odd response. I'm not sure what i said that got you to this point... i'm honestly confused. is it just that i reported a couple of basic manipulation techniques? i suppose i could tell you that i have four children and a wife currently as well, but i'm not sure if that's better or worse in your opinion...

i have not, (nor am i likely to ever) divulge any "unsavory" activities actually perpetrated, i simply gave a few bland generalities as that is what i thought the conversation was pertaining to.

i don't think that my motives or methods are really that different from anyone else (if they are honest with themselves). no more or less "evil" than the next guy... in fact, i would consider myself a "neutral" on that particular battlefield.

i'm glad to hear that you will not harass me, but your iteration, and subsequent re-iteration of the fact that you will not judge me tells me that on some level you already have. this is a difficult situation for me, as it shows that there are toes to be stepped on here(and when one member responds in such a way, its generally a fair bet that others will as well.. which will eventually lead to admin involvement and the almighty ban hammer). i find walking on eggshells to be a fruitless and annoying pursuit to be perfectly frank (whoever "frank" is...)

the difficulty i face now is one of temptation versus pain in the buttocks factor. as intrigued as i am by your reply- it is almost overwhelmingly tempting to dig in and see where it goes. on the other hand, proxies annoy me almost as much as walking on eggshells.

i will say that your reply is so overly defensive that (were i to see it IRL) i could scarcely help but pounce like a house cat on an open tuna-can. i'm gonna try to uphold the rather high bar that myers has set though with his decency and all.

i kinda want to go back to the last question posed at me (e.g.: "what says victim") and just copy/paste your reply. its a case study in how to attract a bored sociopath. i mean that in the most benevolent way. i'll do my best not to poke back though.

you know, i read an interesting thought on another board today though. that being- a purported antisocial was told by a well-meaning shrink that other people are "fragile". by which (he goes on to explain) was meant that oftentimes individuals around us are hurt even where no slight was intended. what's that all about? fair is fair, i'll take a demerit when i have fairly earned one... but i have (too many times in this life) taken shots for angles i wasn't even WORKING. this appears to be one of those cases....

sorry?