Antisocials, psychopaths, and therapy

A better question is why would we want to?
In my opinion, people are worthless unless they can be used in some way. The cup I drink out of has more use to me than most people I know.

Makes sense really, it's not logical to hang with a crowd that will bring you down...I was wondering, what would you define as useful to you?

Welcome demon, take care,
-obj

Something that has use, obviously. For example, if there is something I desire and someone else can provide it, I may 'befriend' them in order to get what I want if 'befriending' is required. Once I have achieved my intended desire, the person I got it off is of no use to me anymore and becomes useless again. I don't keep useless objects.

Since you are a person, how do use yourself?

I use my body in various ways in order to survive - Eat, drink, sleep. Clearly I value my life because it is my life. I have no reason and certainly no obligation to value anybody else's life unless it is of use to me.

Just wanted to post that I've found this thread to be a very interesting read - the title caught my eye yesterday so I read the whole thing. I'll probably be lurking if there are any new posts in the future.

Why come to a support site if you have no intention of supporting?

This forum is also for those who wish to share their thoughts, opinions and ideas with other like-minded people, is it not?
Besides, who is to say I won't learn something new by being here. I do not need to support in order to learn. I like to expand my horizons so to speak.

To learn what? A better way to manipulate? To take but not give?

Why all the questions?
Not everyone who joins forums such as this is looking for support or to be supportive. I am not causing anyone any harm by being here. As I said before, I simply want to share my thoughts and opinions occasionally with other people and if something of benefit can be learned from that exchange, then all the better. I am not here to cause problems for anyone, so stop worrying.

I was being supportive. I thought you would be amused by how worthless I was.

yes, Byz, i agree if you said: there is nothing more fulfilling than being worthless to a psychopath~

Even though this post has long since been abandoned, I could not help but add my own input on a recent question.

On the note of sustaining close relationships/friendships, they do tend to be one sided, obviously. But they can be possible. I have NPD & BP with a plethora of sociopathic tendencies which I tend to suffocate for the sake of making my life less complicated, until a situation necessitates my instincts. But I DO have 2 very close friends who are both clinically ASPD. A lot of the basis of our friendships are that we know eachother's demons & have a lot of commonground, both in terms of personality disorder & petty ******** such as music taste etc. We all also just so happen to be pigeonholed into the "gifted" category, so that is another point of reference we have towards one another.

In order to gain close relationships & feel a sense of companionship, I suppose the key is to be flexible enough (or delusional enough) to extend the concern you have for yourself to others. I think of my VERY few close friendships in terms of being an extension of myself; a kind of possessiveness to where I feel inclined to look out for their wellbeing because if THEY were in a compromised position, that would not be beneficial to me. I would lose a person who knows about the darker aspects of myself & could risk being outed. Every friend I have serves a purpose, but I think the reason I have been able to sustain them is based on how long-term their purpose becomes. It is in a state of flux.

It's really about being cognitively proficient enough to artificially create a give & take. Sometimes it is a chore, definitely, but as you go onward it can become easier-- but undoubtedly with many periods of looking back at yourself & saying "What the **** are you doing?". In my honest opinion, this applies to more than those with personality disorders... There are a lot of genuinely selfish ****s out there who HAVE a strong emotional capacity that they choose not to use for one motive or another.

Just a personal philosophy I have is all. Hope I have, at the very least, offered an interesting change in point of view!

"Every friend I have serves a purpose, but I think the reason I have been able to sustain them is based on how long-term their purpose becomes. It is in a state of flux."

I'm glad you phrased it that way...it reminds me of people in intense survival mode...usually at that point what I've seen is serious trust issues, and definitly a good reason too. I donno, if I was a kid that always had people in/out of my life and most of them were abusive...I would do that too. I donno, I would think it would suck to be totally objectless...or have no one that you know will be there till one of you dies...course then if you trust that if you do lose them, any attachment you had would then harm you big time. I hope you keep posting shay, and sorry if I took this off your intended topic;

Take care,
-obj

..

lmao wow u come so far

I'd have to say my friendships with fellow psychopaths and antisocials are very similar. We get along because of our common interests and thought processes. And I must say, it is quite a relief to be able to communicate without having to be "on guard" all the time (with respect to sensitivities. On the flip side, I have to be more guarded against those friends who seek to sell me out for their own selfish purposes). Despite this, I'd say our relationships are based mostly on business. And it isn't uncommon for one of us, myself included, to go off on our own one day at random or disappear for months at a time (or forever). No one really grieves the loss. Needless to say, we're not the most connected of friends.

Like protecting one's assets, right? The problem with that is... those particular individuals are still seen as mere objects, albeit valuable, used as pieces to attain an end. In this case, they provide an outlet for the darker behaviour. They are valuable because they (or, rather, the information about you to which they are privy) can be used as leverage against you. However, regardless of how valuable they are due to their various traits or knowledge, this does not inspire closeness to them or require that I feel pity for their suffering. To be blunt, loyalty to objects based on their level of value isn't the epitome of compassionate behaviour.

In this metaphor, the "trustworthy friend" would be a safe in which you keep information about yourself. This safe can be manipulated into revealing the information or forced open should it ever fall into the wrong hands. Either way, should this "safe" ever become compromised, my inner-psychopath would conclude that I must destroy this safe and all information therein before any manipulating or forcing could occur. As you can see, I have little compassion for my safes ...

Granted, I do try to be generous in my relationships, and I believe I'm fair in my negotiations. But I wouldn't call it compassionate. In fact, I can't say I've ever truly felt compassion or closeness for anyone or that I ever could.

Nonetheless, you do have an interesting philosophy, and I'd like to discuss it more.

@ Objtrbit: Haha I was thinking of videogame survival modes as well when writing that! But it could be because I've been playing far too much xbox lately... I completely see what you mean though. Contrasting that type of an individual with having a psychopath for a friend could have various implications! Some with a relatively "good" prognosis overall & others not so much so. I don't mind a topic change, btw. Offers a broader horizon, in terms of collective conversation. And thank you for the encouragement to post! There aren't that many places to post about this sort of thing. : )

@ Michael: I definitely understand what you're saying about some friends seeking to sell you out. Thankfully I have only had to deal with one such of those types & this individual had a great deal more wrong with them than I do, in terms of manipulativeness & personal motive. I personally have been striving to figure out how a lot of my close friendships are even possible, thus my theorizing & trying to examine the "mechanics" of personal relationships. Because, honestly, I have a lot more in the way of genuinely loyal people around me than most typical people are able to garner. It astounds me, to be perfectly honest.

I see what you mean about them still being treated as objects... There really is no way of getting around that truth. & I'm very aware that it is by no means a fair substitute for compassion. At some point or another, one is going to get tired of choosing to feign an emotional capacity & the people around them are going to crave something more valuable & "meaningful" to them.
I really appreciate your safe metaphor. It really allows me to see your thoughts through a slightly clearer perspective, as viewing people as PEOPLE really does make things a little more convoluted in my point of view... Being someone who wants to study psychology/neuroscience professionally, I'm kind of obligated to search further into the mental aspects of what makes a functioning psyche, by definition, typical.
It's not like I don't have that little voice in the back of my head. Self preservation is paramount to any & everything else. & it simply wouldn't be advantageous if all of our safes chose to open their mouths. Hahahah

Generousness & fairness are about as close as I can get, myself, though I have been very caught off guard by my bond with my current significant other (who also happens to be afflicted/blessed, however you may choose to deem it). It's very atypical & close in nature. I'm still trying to figure out what this means for me... If I'm not indeed sociopathic & it's merely an overly intellectual approach to interpersonal relationships, or if I AM & there is a concept I'm not quite grasping, yet am able to subconsciously comprehend? (Pardon me for posing too many rhetorical questions. I tend to over think when I don't sleep & it seems I have a lot more in the way of unresolved questions than I had thought.)

I'm VERY thankful that my point of view wasn't dismissed. Over the years, it's something I've thought about thoroughly & have been trying to understand. Having a place in which to talk about it is probably a lot more helpful in trying to remove the holes frommy conclusions. I wish I had found this place from the start. : )

I've been in therapy several times, as a kid my parents made me go for various reasons. It was extremely ineffective because I didn't want to be there and always managed to trick my therapists and psychiatrists into thinking I was fine, and eventually I'd stop having to go until something else happened, and we'd go through that whole routine all over again. I've never been diagnosed with anything because I've never been honest with my therapists, but I've come to the conclusion that I'm a psychopath through research and taking the Hare Psychopathy Checklist... I am actually working on getting myself under control and may willingly take up therapy because my behaviors are getting very inconvenient and I need to at least get some amount of control over myself.

chelseamonster: I've gone through that phase DOZENS of times. Wanting to seek help because I'm doing reckless **** that sincerely isn't doing me any favours. Sometimes, the possiblity of outisde help being able to do more than your own biased impression of yourself is really hopeful, but I usually change my mind before I decide to make a plan of action to do anything about it. Lately though, I have been keeping myself in check with a combination of self-delusion (see my above perspectives on keeping good interpersonal relationships) & spending a lot of time by myself (since when you're by yourself, who are you REALLY causing problems for anyway?). But if you are really hellbent on getting control over yourself & seeking professional assistance: Do it promptly & immediately. You need to tell your therapist: Look, I am a sociopath & a liar & I am probably going to try to convince you there is nothing wrong with me once I feel that seeing you is a bad idea, but I really desperately want to keep myself under control & I need you to intervene & help me, whether I act like I want it or not. Kind of like a disclaimer because, otherwise, your therapist will have no idea what to do with you & won't be able to help you because you aren't being completely honest. That is a lot of the problem with treating ASPD: When it's not a lack of wanting help, it's the fact that you go in to seek help & then you retract all of your progress for one motivation or another, & then the doc will probably misdiagnose you with anxiety & try to medicate you improperly. So you'll wind up a zombie. An antisocial zombie. And you won't have any solutions or coping skills for any of the problems you are struggling with. And that sounds very inconvenient & very unnecessary.

The way I see it, "I'm doing just great" is one kind of delusion, "I'm doing just terrible" is another, and we get to choose whichever one suits us best.

Exactly!! I suppose being blunted in the way we personally process our "affect" gives us this choice... Unfortunately I also have a mood disorder, so some emotions DO unnecessarily creep up on me & hit me over the head with a lead pipe for no forseeable reason, despite regularly feeling very little. But I DO find that the conscious mind rules over most mental processes & it is as simple as "flicking a switch" to not let yourself be bothered about things... Or happy about them, for that matter. Hahaha to each his own!!

speaking of... long time no "see" buddy. i see you're holding as fine a court as ever. do hope to be able to contribute here and there.

- anti.

ahhh, much better- this is my old account (i was using the "antisthenes" one til i could figure out my old password on this one). anyhow.... carry on.

having trained to be a counselor, and having spent many years in peer counseling and advising, and having interacted with more than a few "therapists", i have come to the conclusion that one must change oneself. oh, it's nice to have a few pointers, but it's very difficult to "make" another do anything in the way of self-modification.

if one is born with a missing part, there is simply no cure for that. there may be 'work-arounds', and accommodations, but the basic fact is: gone is gone. not there, don't work, can't change.

those of us who like those of you, who form attachments to people even when we understand that they are incapable of doing the same, are really like those wild life fanatics, who know one day that bear might eat them,,, but still can't resist liking it. as for "typical", that word has so little meaning as to be useless in most contexts, in my opinion. but i do like a good discussion, a well reasoned argument, a different slant on the old news. so thanks for the posts... best wishes,, Gus

Gus: I really agree with everything you said. It really makes me think a lot, as I've been questioning my motives more & more lately for pursuing & maintaining interpersonal relationships... I suppose, with the people who haven't yet ****ed me over, it's the fact that it's so uncertain that keeps me interested & coming back for more. It's almost like it's enough to satiate my need for excitement in most situations... Luckily I've calmed down enough for that, at least recently. But, you're very right. Gone is gone.