[VickiesPath]

I've always suspected that my bipolar started as a child. But I could never find much in the research I read to support it. Now, I discovered DocJohn's material on this site regarding childhood bipolar and that the psychiatric community can't agree whether bipolar really does begin in chldhood or if it is ADHD most of the time. I think that it's unfortunate that the DSM-IV doesn't include a diagnosis for childhood bipolar. This means that it's difficult to get meds paid for. Does anyone know if this is changing?

Well, if they took more adults with adult bipolar illness and studied them, I am sure they would find that they can provide evidence of bipolar symptoms dating back to early childhood as far as the person can remember. They could also get input from the patient's parent. But in my case, it's a little late cuz my parents are dead.

I want to get this down on paper so I apologize if it's a boring read. I always knew I was the odd one in my family. It's really not hard to tell. Being one of four children, I'm the only one who stood out as far as behavior when we were young. I was so difficult for my mother to discipline but I also was very smart, both intelligence and schoolwork. None of us were necessarily slow, but I was the brightest. Also, I was a terror! I exhibited all the characteristics of the bipolar child....exteme temper tantrums at all ages, delusional thinking, insomnia, expansive mood, sadness, lack of interest in play, explosive rages, separation anxiety (this continued into upper grade school age), defiance of authority, hyperactivity, excessive involvement in multiple projects, lack of concentration, precociousness, and rapid mood swings. My mother was constantly at a loss as to how to handle all of this.

My self-esteem suffered because it was so hard for my mother to show love to me because deep down, I just knew she hated me. That's how she acted. In contrast, my younger sister was the little darling. This feels so pathetic even saying it.

After so many years of living with this curse, I have to admit that now, I wish with all my heart that I could simply put it out of my mind. I know why things were the way they were. Then why can't I just let it go? I find it won't go away and is causing depression. Now that I know what caused my behavior, I expect to just be able to move on and live my life. Instead, I find that I am grieving the life I didn't have. This is really upsetting! I"m the first person to realize that it doesn't make sense to grieve something one never had. So why am I feeling this way? I guess that's something I'll ask T on Monday.

[thinker22]

Hi Vickie,

I feel for you. I had most of the issues you talked about in my childhood too, except for I was more introverted and my brother was more extroverted. I was more excitable and happy and extroverted at home, however. My brother and I have equally high intelligence, but he was more artistic whereas I was more verbal. We both put on plays for my parents, however. He did beautiful accurate drawings, I wrote short stories and poems.

I believe my brother is also bipolar, but self medicating. He goes through periods of being excitable and extroverted and happy and losing weight (like me), but then has periods of depression where he doesn't want to go out, plays video games and packs on the pounds (similar to me except for the weight gain). He abuses both alcohol and drugs and hasn't gone to a psychiatrist since he left the court ordered program. He fooled the p-doc into thinking everything was fine. I think he also has a personality disorder like anti-social. Anyway, all this to say, my brother got into more trouble than I, but I was always going through these flips in childhood, where as far as I can tell my brother didn't. He was almost always outgoing and didn't start getting depressed too until his latter teen years.

My bipolar was almost from the start. I'd be hyper and silly and get in trouble at school (until about 2nd grade) for not being able to sit still or stop talking or being overly affectionate, then I'd get punished and turn all quiet and sad. The sadness got stronger after about age 7 and mostly replaced what would now be called ADD or ADHD. I still had trouble hearing teachers' instructions when I was really into a project and also got punished for that. It was like I was constantly getting reprimanded or beaten for being me. That only made my depression deeper.

So I think that bipolar probably does start in some people in early childhood, but it depends on their chemistry and the kind of trauma they encountered and their reaction to that trauma. My brother had similar traumas, but he kept their results pretty well hidden until he was 18-19 and beyond. Me, I didn't know why I went through the hyper moods and then back to depressed such that even close friends wouldn't recognize me at times, because they were used to the depressed cynical me, not this zest for life me that couldn't stop laughing.

You know how it is. I'm sure there are studies going on now about childhood bipolar, but the results just aren't conclusive or out yet. Let's hope our experiences are validated. I can see why the medical community would be hesitant to announce that bipolar in children is similar to ADD or ADHD. The reason being that it would terrify the already upset parents of these children that they might grow into having a lifelong and worse problem with heightened symptoms that they could never outgrow as is the case quite often with the other diagnoses. And some do only have ADD or ADHD. It's difficult to tell the two apart, except for the in between periods of depression. Maybe I should be on Ritalin. Even with all my bipolar meds I still find it hard to sit still.

We know what happened and that's what's important. I think bipolar people are typically creative and intelligent. It may be one of those bundled genes like red hair and freckles...that are seldom severed because they are so close to each other on their various chromosomes. Just a thought.

[VickiesPath]

Thank you so much, Thinker. What you wrote sounded autobiographical for me, I was (am) very musically talented. It was the one thing that my parents made a big deal about. They would ask me to "perform" for their friends. I played any instrument you would give to me and I sang. I have perfect pitch and play guitar, banjo, mandolin and mountain dulcimer.

You described some of my behaviors to the letter. I remember two specific times when my acting out became dangerous for others I was around. Once I was throwing a tantrum and threw a pub dart at my little brother and it stuck in the sofa just a couple inches from his chest. The other time, I was at the neighbor's house, she babysat for us while our mother was working. We were playing outside and we were on their picnic table, acting like we were performing on a stage. Another girl was "stealing my limelight" so I pushed her off the table. She cracked her head on a concrete block and had to get stitches. These were both aggressive acts. I was in an altered state of mind when I did them. None of my brothers or sister were like this.

I truly appreciate the validation your post provided. I self-medicated like your brother, for a very long time. I'm glad I quit eventually.

This crap is so painful. I'm sick of it. I was kind of keeping my fingers crossed that it was over with. Guess there's only our best effort as a weapon.

[lonegael]

Vicky, you sound like me as a kid. I was a mess, challenging the teachers, getting in more fights than any boy in the school, clingy with my parents, explosive temperament, fast and intense when it came to work and obsessively into projects. The I would crash, withdraw, and teachers would assume I'd "learned my lesson", just to have me start talking out in class again, knowing all the answers, oh lord, I get sick remembering it. crying fits, and I mean fits for no identifiable reason. I went through a few very hard and scary experiences when I was still very young, so I might have been set in action earlier than most. Big problem is that ADHD and bipolar in children look very similar and often you get them in the same families. ADHD you can medicate for, bipolar medications are still very iffy in use with children. Yeah, I hear you, there is not much out there. I have a book here, by Demitri and Janice Papolos called the Bipolar Child: the definitive and reassuring guide to childhood's most misunderstood disorder. Broadway books, NEW York, 1999. It's pretty good.

[VickiesPath]

I think that's the one DocJohn reviewed, Lonegael. It's good. Thanks very much for your post. I truly appreciate eveyrone's input. Very validating.

[birdcrazy]

Heh, I was like this as a kid too, especially the tantrums, they lasted until I was a teenager. They were so bad, I was in special ed, but I was on honor's courses too!!!

Back then, they said it was ADHD, and now on top of the schizoaffective/bipolar stuff going on with me, my therapist said I still had a few ADHD-like symptoms going on. But there is so much overlap, I'm still not sure what was wrong with kid me.

Any of you guys extremely eccentric too???

[amaviena]

I 100% relate. Even with the mother-little sister thing. Which is odd. Be my new sister. We can always be perfect enough.

[VickiesPath]

Originally Posted by amaviena

I 100% relate. Even with the mother-little sister thing. Which is odd. Be my new sister. We can always be perfect enough.

You got it!

[BNLsMOM]

I spent so much time in the nurse's office that I probably missed more than half the year at school. I was always getting "sick" with stomach aches, headaches, etc. I think this is how I showed depression. I also was extremely creative and I am pretty sure I suffered from delusions of grandeur. It was as if my play were real. I used to get very upset when kids would leave whatever game I was playing and go do something else. I took piano lessons and although I didn't like practicing, I knew that I would be discovered at a recital and would become a famous piano player.
I used to get so angry that I would stomp my feet as hard as I could hoping that I would either break through the floor or break my foot. I used to throw myself to the ground while running to try to get hurt so the other kids would pay attention to me. I used to picture tornadoes or dinosaurs tearing my neighborhood down whenever I got angry. I used to want to destroy things and I would often trash my room. I would immediately feel guilty and cry while I picked up all my toys and apologized to each one, kissing it before I put it away.
I think that pretty much fits the bipolar child description. I am sure there is more, but that is all I can remember at the moment.

[thinker22]

I got angry a few times and kind of snapped at my best friend. I'm sure I did it with others, but I remember those times with her the clearest. I felt terrible even the second after it happened. I was so enraged that I couldn't accomplish something and she was good at it. But then I felt so mortified after hurting her (unintentionally) that I wanted to cry and disappear. Once I tried to clear her head with a high karate kick (like I'd seen in a movie) and I hit her in the temple and bent her glasses. The other time I swung a golf club super hard at a miniature golf course and the ball shot into her leg (I was so pissed that I had missed like 3 times having the ball come right back to me). I think the third time was her beating me at some game and me flipping the board...so just a tantrum. She was good at everything. It got to be annoying, but now I see I was just an emotional beast and didn't realize how much I was affected by my chemistry. Doesn't make me feel better about what I did, but now that I know what's going on and I'm a little older, at least I can challenge the invasive and explosive emotions. I also used to storm off if I felt wronged by a teacher or whomever. I had a terrible time with authority figures...esp the ones who used their power with a bit too much relish.

You're not alone.

[VickiesPath]

I can relate to everyone's post. The delusions!!! Those were the comfort. Everything was so painful and confusing that the delusions were necessary to somehow make everything make sense. Of course, they were temporarily comforting and never came true. My husband said to me, "I used to do the exact same things." Well, first, my husband has a gift for exageration. Second, he did things to get attention. He admits that. And, he says that no matter what he did, his mother always loved him. I said, well there's the difference. My mother clearly indicated that she didn't like me much. I'm sure she loved me, like a mother loves a child. But, she often treated me with contempt. That much I was clear about. He agreed. I think she was convinced I was evil. How could she produce such a child? Must have been shameful for her.

There was no such thing as ADHD when I was young. That was a very long time ago and the illness had not been identified yet.

I truly appreciate everyone's post. It is great to know I'm not the Lone Ranger.

[rcsweep]

Currently my 4yr old is diagnosed adhd, oppositional defiance disorder and juvenile bipolar. to add to the fun she scores 136 out of 140 on the child iq test, so she can be very manipulative. we have trouble finding a therapist for her because she is so young but we started with new one last weak and at the appointment she went through the full gambit of symptoms. the T thinks she might be schizophrenic but not sure because a 4yr old can not communicate how they feel very well and she makes up stories and out right lies, so what is real and what is made up. very stressful which does not help my bipolar.

[starrina]

Sadly you have just given a fairly accurate picture of my daughter
I truely wish she would see someone to find out for sure
but she wont she thinks its all a bunch of *****

It has come to the point that I have left the family home
I simply cannot deal with both hers and my issue
when I spoke to her yesterday I told her I am proud of
her taking on the responsability of an adult she stated to me
"I do not want you to be proud of me I want you to love me"

I understand her pain but I also understand that there is
a deeper problem, but I cannot get her to see this she
only sees how bad I am.

Ops sorry this got off track but I do honestly believe
that she is ill.

[VickiesPath]

I feel so much for you (((((rcsweep))))) (((((starrina )))))))

When my son was born, he had a heart murmur. The KU Med Center in Kansas City pediatric cardiologists followed it for four years, finally declaring it an "innocent" murmur, meaning it was functionally unimportant. He's almost 16. He still has it, every doctor can hear it. I have since realized that it was probably caused by the Prozac I took during all nine months of my pregnancy.

When he was 3, my son began wearing glasses because he was extremely farsighted. Other than that, he has no other health issues. I am soooooooooooo grateful.

I truly feel for each of you who have such challenges with your children. I cannot imagine what it would be like to have ME as a child.

[Zen888]

I haven't read each post but does anyone have an academic journal article or legitimate information regarding bipolar disorder in children? I would like to know the symptoms to see when my bipolar disorder actually started.

[VickiesPath]

On the front page of this website on the left side is a list of disorders. Click on the one for Bipolar. One the left will be a listing of the types of Bipolar. At the bottom of that list it says "Childhood Bipolar Illness" or something. There will appear an article by DocJohn written in late 2008 that lists the symptoms.