[Formerlybrilliant]

I had a terrible bought of mania in 2001 and lost a lot of things as a result. I used to be a very good writer before that incident of mania but have lost most of that ability. I heard somewhere that I might have been brain damaged as a result of the mania. Can mania cause brain damage?

[Medicated]

Hm... I've never heard of that.

Some mental disorders like schizophrenia are progressive in their course and sufferers generally get gradually worse, but that is generally not true of bipolar disorder. It is usually stable over time.

Are you taking any medications? I suspect that whatever medications you're on may be dulling your senses a bit. I used to be a lot more artistic before I was diagnosed and treated starting about six years ago...

Is it possible that your former sense of brilliance was actually a hypomanic state? I tend to feel pretty brilliant when I'm "up." Just a thought.

[Skully]

I don't think so but I am not sure. Maybe the beginning of the manic episode is what caused you to be really good at something and now that the mania is over so is the talent? I don't know, I am just grasping at straws here. Also, some medications will take that "creativity" away.

[Pughead]

I don't think that mania can cause physical brain damage. A severe seizure could.

[grizmom]

Originally Posted by Medicated

Hm... I've never heard of that.

Some mental disorders like schizophrenia are progressive in their course and sufferers generally get gradually worse, but that is generally not true of bipolar disorder. It is usually stable over time.

Actually, a lot of research has shown that bipolar gets progressively worse over time, with increased episodes, more risk of mixed episodes, it becomes increasingly treatment-resistant, and there are less/shorter stable periods in between episodes. People with bipolar also lose gray matter faster than people without mood disorders. This is especially true with untreated or under-treated patients, but can also happen to people who are med compliant. Just some things my doctors have told me.

[greylove]

That's interesting to me Formerlybrilliant and grizmom, because I've been saying ever since my mania, and my depression, that I've lost a lot of brain cells. I'm sure of this because the ability to do things, like spelling a word I know, or even coming up with one, or something simple just no longer can be counted on. The research that grizmom mentioned absolutely chills me. I've read much of it myself but hope that that won't be my experience. My age almost seems to be an advantage to me now. Maybe my meds will hold out as long as I do.

[Medicated]

Originally Posted by grizmom

Actually, a lot of research has shown that bipolar gets progressively worse over time, with increased episodes, more risk of mixed episodes, it becomes increasingly treatment-resistant, and there are less/shorter stable periods in between episodes. People with bipolar also lose gray matter faster than people without mood disorders. This is especially true with untreated or under-treated patients, but can also happen to people who are med compliant. Just some things my doctors have told me.

Goodness gracious. I'm going into healthcare, and I don't think I would ever tell a patient those sorts of things unless they directly asked me. Let's take this one day at a time...

Anyway, we're kinda talking about two different things here, so I should clarify. Bipolar CAN get worse over time, but that doesn't mean that it WILL. What you're talking about is the severity and frequency of manic and depressive episodes. (I need to see this research for myself... )

What I was talking about is baseline cognitive function, or how functional you are between episodes. That shouldn't change much in bipolar disorder, whereas in schizophrenia, for example, it WILL become progressively worse with time.

That's what I meant when I said that bipolar is relatively stable... I meant to tell the original poster that the prognosis for bipolar is comparatively good when it comes to cognitive function. I can't speak for the course of the illness because I haven't read those studies for myself. (Maybe if I have time after I do my homework tonight...)

Originally Posted by grizmom

Actually, a lot of research has shown that bipolar gets progressively worse over time, with increased episodes, more risk of mixed episodes, it becomes increasingly treatment-resistant, and there are less/shorter stable periods in between episodes. People with bipolar also lose gray matter faster than people without mood disorders. This is especially true with untreated or under-treated patients, but can also happen to people who are med compliant. Just some things my doctors have told me.

This is mostly my understanding (through reading and what p-doc said) too, grizmom. The gray matter bit doesn't ring a bell, but I have heard that med compliance does help stop or at least slow the potential progression, so I'm holding on to those. From personal experience (YMMV), the progression for untreated has been true. Also, mismedication (ADs alone for a misdiagnosis) seems to have sped things up, which I've read they think can happen too. Been on the planet long enough to have a pretty long view to look back on.

Hehe, greylove ("My age almost seems to be an advantage to me now. Maybe my meds will hold out as long as I do. "), me too.

This issue is probably like so many others. Research can indicate many things, but there are so many factors (even besides the BP) that many parts may be hard to say definitively. Just as we experience BP differently, we likely have so many variables that it's the perfect example of YMMV. Just because something *may* happen, doesn't necessarily mean it will for a given individual (like med side effects). That's probably a good thing to remember in all this, ya?

[Medicated]

Ok, I'm inserting my foot in my mouth now. As I do a little research, I've found a number of articles that refute many of my previous statements. Now I'm depressed. Ignorance was bliss.

[Formerlybrilliant]

Thanks to all for the input on my inquiry. I've got to say that the notion of my BP condition getting worse over time is kind of a downer though I had one p-doc tell me this (I kind of blew it off at the time). To answer one question, yes I am medicated and thankfully have found a combination that has kept me stable for 4 years and counting. To answer another question, definitely, I had some moments of brilliance when I was manic (and even more moments of non-brilliance at the same time) but I had a very good run of time when I enjoyed a strong creative streak in stable times where I was able to produce noteworthy writings and music. I lost that ability for 4 years and I'm trying to figure out why. I guess it sounds like the meds are partly to blame. At least I'm going with the assumption that I might not be brain damaged. So I got that going for me.

[Ascension]

Bi-Polar Disorder does not have to get worse. The longer and less aggressively one treats the illness the more ingrained certain behaviors and even brain chemistry can be hindered. If you are proactive in treating your illness as early and as faithfully as possible you will diminish the severity and regularity of the illness. Of course this is not a hard and fast assertion, as some people struggle even with early and proactive treatment. The other thing that may be of note is that being on medication has changed the way I feel the world and in that my writing and other artistic endeavors are not as vivid as they used to be. The medication stabilizes the mood and many BP artists depends on the intensity and swing for their muse. I know this to be the case for me. The good news is I have learned to reconnect with that side of myself without the need to be on an uncontrolled roller coaster. I hope this helps some.

In short, mania does not cause brain damage but the longer you leave it untreated the more your brain chemistry can change and the harder it is to change your perspective and views on life from the unhealthy mind of a person with BP to seeing the world in balance.

[greylove]

This brings to mind my manic "brilliance." Try hard not to laugh.....

I had the most beautiful penmanship ever. ( I have always admired beautiful penmanship and fine pens.)

I could dance for 4 hours straight and actually look good doing it. (I would avoid a dance floor like the plague before.)

I posted dozens of post it notes all over my kitchen.....(in perfect block lettering, lined up perfectly by color and subject, and centered the first time around, without the use of a ruler.)

I could sketch fabulously. Spent an hour with a tiny notebook and and someone's all silver Harley-Davidson. ( Caught my eye in a parking lot......sketched it in detail over 7 notebook pages right down to the type of screw head)

Honestly, heaven only knows what other finely honed skills I developed. These are the ones that immediatly come to mind.

[maryjain lockhart]

Originally Posted by greylove

This brings to mind my manic "brilliance." Try hard not to laugh.....

I had the most beautiful penmanship ever. ( I have always admired beautiful penmanship and fine pens.)

I could dance for 4 hours straight and actually look good doing it. (I would avoid a dance floor like the plague before.)

I posted dozens of post it notes all over my kitchen.....(in perfect block lettering, lined up perfectly by color and subject, and centered the first time around, without the use of a ruler.)

I could sketch fabulously. Spent an hour with a tiny notebook and and someone's all silver Harley-Davidson. ( Caught my eye in a parking lot......sketched it in detail over 7 notebook pages right down to the type of screw head)

Honestly, heaven only knows what other finely honed skills I developed. These are the ones that immediatly come to mind.

The penmanship thing....when I'm feeling more manic my penmanship is absolutely BEAUTIFUL but when I hit the slumps it goes down the crapper. When I'm manic I do needlepoint&counted cross stich&it looks gorgeous(when I was younger I wasn't intersted in these things). When I'm down, I cant focus on needlepoint or cross stitch or hardly anything else for that matter. Mania makes me want to clean&organize&make everything look nice. I actually use qtips to dust crevices in my coffee table! I scrub the floors on my hands&knees&obsess over gettin every centimeter spotless

[Bipolarmother]

Hi I think everyone who replied has a peice that is correct. Rapid cycling can physically change the size of the brain. And rapid cycling can originate from medications themselves. The life cycle of bipoalr is known to also be different in everyone with increased cycling and severity of the symptons.

The creativity felt in mania or hypomania can be missing because of the cycling and the mood especially depressive it settles in as well as the medication effects it has on everyone.

[venusss]

Originally Posted by Ascension

Bi-Polar Disorder does not have to get worse. The longer and less aggressively one treats the illness the more ingrained certain behaviors and even brain chemistry can be hindered. If you are proactive in treating your illness as early and as faithfully as possible you will diminish the severity and regularity of the illness. Of course this is not a hard and fast assertion, as some people struggle even with early and proactive treatment. The other thing that may be of note is that being on medication has changed the way I feel the world and in that my writing and other artistic endeavors are not as vivid as they used to be. The medication stabilizes the mood and many BP artists depends on the intensity and swing for their muse. I know this to be the case for me. The good news is I have learned to reconnect with that side of myself without the need to be on an uncontrolled roller coaster. I hope this helps some.

In short, mania does not cause brain damage but the longer you leave it untreated the more your brain chemistry can change and the harder it is to change your perspective and views on life from the unhealthy mind of a person with BP to seeing the world in balance.

I think that the reason why untreated bipolar seems to get worse is partly because of bad thinking patterns that the person developed... I don't think that BP is 100% biological. Cummulation of actions and their consequences play a big part here too. And as for the chemistry... brain chemistry determines how you feel, but you can induce the feelings to change the brain chemistry (I am not quite clear here... but I don't think unconditional happiness for example really exists. You can hardly be happy for long term when in bad life situation... so your brain is influenced by outside factors... and while you cannot buy happiness, it's easier to feel happy when feeling accomplished). And the longer we live with bad patterns the harder they become embedded, and that's what makes the treatment worse... if one has gotten (through their deeds) into really bad place, they have much more work to do to get to the normal than someone who realizes in the beginning "there is something wrong with me".

Roosevelt was probably "untreated" and was he damaged?

We also get to hear only the horror stories. If person is untreated, undiagnosed and doing quite well with ocassional slip-ups and craziness, they never make it into statistics.

[eskielover]

Just looked up a few sites on the computer to see what they had to say n the subject matter of mania & brain damage.....this is the only thing I found:

http://www.healthyplace.com/bipolar-...er/menu-id-67/

[Bipolarmother]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0205123833.htm
http://www.brainexplorer.org/bipolar...etiology.shtml

Here are a few very interesting articles on bipolar and the chemical changes...

For me I have to wait until I cycle to do certain things. After only 4 yrs of having the diagnosis I can see how my whole life functioned with "cycling" especially the difficulty in college and what I now know as suffering with the changes of mood and my ability to keep up with classes.

I have quite a few walls with stenciling and I know I did those during my manic phase.
Yes I sort of agree that our brains do become set in there ways so to speak, it is more frustrating trying to fight the fight of doing what I just cant do during depression. Some people have outside environmental issues that complicate the actual cycling and really need to find a way to seperate the chemical change versus an environmental change in mood

As far as mood and depression, it puts me in such a funk, I do not process, think right, have more memory problems etc and nothing can lift me back to my normal hyperthymic personality no matter what I think or do so I do not believe we get set in our ways, we are fighting against chemicals!!! I truely believe it is our illnesses talking when we cycle either way and waiting for the seesaw to balance out for me is liking walking a fine line.

And since I do not take medication, it is very difficult to find that fine line...