[Rennerenner]

So earlier today I was with my best friend, and he mentioned that he think a lot of illness can be fixed with a "mind over matter" way of looking at it. I then said something akin to "well, you can't cure cancer with mind over matter" to which he replied, "I suppose, I guess I just mean stuff like depression."

This has been eating at me all day. I only recently got up the courage to tell him I got diagnosed bipolar ii, and he's been totally cool about the whole thing. I guess that's why I was bothered. I said that depression is biological, same as diabetes, it can't be simplified to "mind over matter." That was the end of it, but it still kind of pissed me off. Like, it just sucks, because I know he doesn't understand, and I wouldn't want him to experience depression, but it sucks that people think that way.

[hamster-bamster]

Think about it this way: both depression and diabetes are, unfortunately, common in the industrialized world. Right? So there exists a pretty substantial likelihood that your friend will with time experience one or the other or both. And then, he will figure out whether "mind over matter" is sufficient. Until then, try to talk to him about unrelated subjects, in order to avoid getting more and more hurt.

[Rennerenner]

Good advice hamster!

The thing is, I've been able to pull myself out of negative thinking during a depressive episode, but I still feel it all over my body weighing down on me. It's such a physical thing sometimes.

I understand that it's hard for people who haven't experienced it to relate to it, but I mean, come on. Have they never had a psychology class? That's just so weird to me.

[missbelle]

You are right...he doesn't not understand........maybe you can educate him, and maybe you can't..worth a try though...Yes, a lot of uneducated people re: the field of mental health, think we can just "will" ourselves better.

In face there are people here, and outside of here that think its just a character flaw and they are weak. They feel with healthy eating, exercise and etc that they can overcome this illness. This my pet peeve. This is a chemical imbalance...now I am not talking about the situational depression caused by a crisis etc, but a real depression or bi-polar illness caused by the fact that the brain does not react normally. I hate the fact that in 2012 we still consider this something we can overcome by sheer will! It just angers me that we have not progressed enough to see this is an illness like any other.

Yes I totally agrees its sucks that people don't understand. Maybe your friend will eventually "get" it!!

Dee

[Anneinside]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

Think about it this way: both depression and diabetes are, unfortunately, common in the industrialized world. Right? So there exists a pretty substantial likelihood that your friend will with time experience one or the other or both. And then, he will figure out whether "mind over matter" is sufficient. Until then, try to talk to him about unrelated subjects, in order to avoid getting more and more hurt.

They are also common in the unindistrialized world. (Is that a word?)

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Anneinside

They are also common in the unindistrialized world. (Is that a word?)

To the same extent? Isn't diabetes Type II rare where there is food scarcity?

[Moose72]

I got the pull yourself up by your bootstraps lecture by an aquaintence a few weeks ago.

[~Christina]

Ugh I despise the " bootstrap " nonsense !

[BipolaRNurse]

It's a little hard to pull yourself up by your bootstraps when you're BAREFOOT, as many of us are when we first seek help. I hate it when people who know nothing of mental illness try to tell us how to deal with it.....it's like having someone who's never had a child criticize your parenting skills.

[Anneinside]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

To the same extent? Isn't diabetes Type II rare where there is food scarcity?

Good point. Perhaps we'll have to stick to depression. (I might have to do a little googling on diabetes.)

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Anneinside

Good point. Perhaps we'll have to stick to depression. (I might have to do a little googling on diabetes.)

Given that depression is a mixture of biological/endogenous and stress/situational, there probably is more of it in the industrialized world - life more hectic, more demands, etc. And of course in the industrialized world depression is dx'd more frequently. Does not mean it occurs more frequently.

[Eliza Jane]

This sort of thing makes me really angry. The only thing that keeps me from ripping people's heads off is remembering the times I thought this myself. If even those of us who deal with mental health problems have a hard time accepting that we just can't "buck up," people with no experience have little chance. Earlier this year I thought I could stop meds because my life was better and I had had so much therapy, etc. I crashed and I crashed hard (after a lengthy period of stability). That experience convinced me that there is definitely a large biological component to my illness.

Seriously, if we could just use mind over matter, would we all just do that?!

Best,
EJ

[BlueInanna]

Twice, I worked up trust to confide my dx with different friends, at different times. Both said, "Pshah! You're not bipolar! Bipolar people are *really really* crazy..."

********!!!

I'm very private in real life, this hurt me when they said it... zero support just ignorant denial. I too hope you may be able to help give your friend some education of the subject, so you might have a good supportive friend. People have some different ideas about bp, I guess somewhere between our personal hells we need to be positive and patient and let our friends and loved ones know what we're *really* going though.

[Anika.]

Ok I am an oddity in the world of MI sometimes. Yes I do believe "some" in mind over matter, but not bootstraps. And I even do believe the mind can aide healing physical illness as well. Help it along not cure it it alone. There is a difference. And some depression can be mind over matter, not all depression is in fact an illness. Situational depression, very much so can be a mind over matter.

If there were no mind over matter, there would be zero therapy. That's how I see it. No needed perspective, none of that stuff, but we do see how that does make a big difference, tho no it is not the end all be all, it is still a very important piece. So maybe they are not totally wrong either? Then again I don't completely believe "all" the biological theories either. I do think it may lie somewhere in between, neither here nor there.

I know I am better with diets changes, and with mental work. That's ok too, I am happy that I have found ways that do in fact help me, better than suffering still. Why must we all have to have the same cause to have the same symptoms? I don't get it. I don't try to peeve anyone with my experience but I will share it, just the same as others if it might help some one. I think that's ok too. I don't think MI is a flaw, nor weakness.

[venusss]

Can I add dissenting opinion?

Maybe bipolar cannot be "cured" with mind over matter. But it cannot be cured with meds either. It can be managed. ANd yes, the right attitude is important (and yes, even with physical illnesses. With will to live you *IS* important).

as hamster says, depression is much more common in industrilized world. SO maybe our lifestyles have to do a lot with it.

Mind over matter, philosophy and all these... matter. No, you will not stop having episodes because of them. But getting through them is a different matter on different mindset.

ANd as for 2012 and chemical imbalances. Yes, it's 2012. ANd chemical imbalance theories had been put to rest. If "mind over matter" is simplifying, chemical imbalance is simplifying even more. How many of us here haven't experience anything terrible in our lifes? How many of us didn't have to comprimise hard, maybe too hard? I find it offensive to be told I "just" have broken brain and I "shouldn't" feel like this.

But anyways... even some depressed and bipolar do think in "mind of matter" mode. I mean... check out Bipolar Advatange blog right here at Psychcentral... it's not just ignorance. It's rather philosophy...

[venusss]

I am glad Anika replied too... because she is much nicer than me in expressing things.

But yeah... good point about therapy. After all... depression, bipolar all these things affecting emotions... they are very much about mind.

[OutlawedSpirit]

As far as getting your friend to understand depression, I'm not even sure that's really possible if they have never experienced it. I tried to explain it to my gf once, and I told her that if I told her to go sprint two miles after she got off working a twelve hour shift, that's how hard it can be just to get up in the morning. I still don't really think she truly understands, and it isn't a lack of trying on her part. I just think the true crippling, deepest parts of depression are indescribable. I get a lot of negative feedback from my mom about my dx, she tries to tell me I"m just hormonal or that "there is no magic pill that will make all life's problems go away". She doesn't understand that I am not looking to make all life's problems go away, I just want to get to a point where I can actually handle life's problems.

I agree with most of this. Miss Belle, it is possible that diet changes do affect the
degree of depression in some people, so it's important, IMHO, that foks understand that, while depression is a chemical imbalance, we do have some control over the imbalance by the diet we live with in our daily lives.

I would agree that depression should have medical treatment to restore a chemical imbalance; in almost all cases that seems to be one helpful and practical way to go. And bipolar illness does become worse without treatment and long-term care for oneself. Psychotherapy is an invaluable tool, as well.

I would disagree that diet plays no part in restoration of mental health. I've lived through bipolar illness long enough to understand that, for me, (and a few others whom I have met along the way) changes in the diet have a profound effect on the wellness of the mind and body in bipolar and depressive illnesses.

When people are able to reduce strong psychotripic medications because of major improvements in diet and lifestyle and use only small dosages of medications to maintain sufficient neurotransmitters, that's enough to convince me and others who know that these changes are effective.

Reliance on psychotropic medications alone is not the answer for many. There are
strong negative side effects to these drugs and it's the side effects that many of us have had to learn to manage effectively by making changes in our lives.

I do not disapprove of medications at all; I think it's in one's best interests, however,
to assist the self rather than to work against the self--meaning that medications are not the only beneficial condition for treatment. The pharmaceutical field would disagree strongly, undoubtedly.

I'm sure this is going to raise some objections. Nevertheless, much information is
out there about drugs, diet, and all the other things that affect depression and bipolar illness.

And as for Diabetes, the diet is the single most profound change to assist with the improvement and even remission of it in some. Both that, depression, and bipolar illness
may have roots in an inherited genetic coding. The same is true for alcoholism.

Years from now, some will laugh at our thoughts regarding this, because gene replacement therapy will be the route to follow for sustained health in these illnesses.

You're all right about the nonsense that one must lift oneself up by the boot straps.
That's ignorance and deserves to be enlightened as many are trying to do here.

I know; so what else is new?

[Trippin2.0]

Bootstraps=BS! Mind over matter = If I dont mind, it doesnt matter! That being said, I have to side with Anika and Venus here, if I failed to apply my mind,I wouldnt show up for work during depro episodes coz I'd be in bed, and neither would I show up when I'm hypo, coz I'd be giving in to the impulse to do something exciting... Yessss, it gets hArd, but do we not keep going anyway? Isnt that in itself a testament to applying 'mind over matter' ? I think people misunderstand and expect magic thoughts tho

[venusss]

Years from now, people will laugh at our thoughts regarding this, because gene replacement therapy will be the route to follow for sustained health in these illnesses.

but wouldn't there be moral aspects of this? Especially when it comes to problems involving the mind?

because there are people who do the whole "dangerous gift" theory... so gene replacement seems bit scary to me O.o

but you are right about food. It's kinda funny how people talk of chemical imbalance and dismiss relevance of nutrition at the same time. Eating right can do a lot good. Though it's not the final answer, imho. Especially if there is REAL reason to feel bad.

[venusss]

Originally Posted by Trippin2.0

Bootstraps=BS! Mind over matter = If I dont mind, it doesnt matter! That being said, I have to side with Anika and Venus here, if I failed to apply my mind,I wouldnt show up for work during depro episodes coz I'd be in bed, and neither would I show up when I'm hypo, coz I'd be giving in to the impulse to do something exciting... Yessss, it gets hArd, but do we not keep going anyway? Isnt that in itself a testament to applying 'mind over matter' ? I think people misunderstand and expect magic thoughts tho

i think it's often matter of mistaking mindfulness for "happy thoughts". The most useful philosophy to get one through bad times is buddhism, imho. And that ain't a happy one. It's a lot about suffering.

it's not about thinking of rainbows farting unicorns and flowers pooping puppies. It's more about belief in yourself, your abilities (this is why the whole "chemical imbalance" **** bothers me. It tells you that you HAVE to depend on meds... and if they don't work, you are screwed). There are many ways to get through the day... but in each YOU play a big part.

You cannot really put a life philosophy in some bumper sticker slogan though. Be it bootstraps or imbalances.

[Eliza Jane]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

ANd as for 2012 and chemical imbalances. Yes, it's 2012. ANd chemical imbalance theories had been put to rest. If "mind over matter" is simplifying, chemical imbalance is simplifying even more.

You say this a lot and I'm not sure what you mean. Neurological research is showing that there are definite differences in brain structure, function, and neurotransmitters in individuals with mental illnesses. I recently went to a fascinating lecture about how there are structural differences in the brain that make it more likely for some individuals to get PTSD after a traumatic experience than others. No it isn't a simple "you are low in serotonin, so let's add some more" as some people think. But it also isn't as if everyone starts out with the same deck of cards.

I wholeheartedly agree that meds aren't the only appropriate solution. And even people who can be stabilized on meds benefit from therapy and other lifestyle changes.

Best,
EJ

[faerie_moon_x]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

i think it's often matter of mistaking mindfulness for "happy thoughts". The most useful philosophy to get one through bad times is buddhism, imho. And that ain't a happy one. It's a lot about suffering.

it's not about thinking of rainbows farting unicorns and flowers pooping puppies. It's more about belief in yourself, your abilities (this is why the whole "chemical imbalance" **** bothers me. It tells you that you HAVE to depend on meds... and if they don't work, you are screwed). There are many ways to get through the day... but in each YOU play a big part.

You cannot really put a life philosophy in some bumper sticker slogan though. Be it bootstraps or imbalances.

I do believe it is chemical. It's a disorder in the chemistry of the brain. But that doesn't mean we have no responsibility at all.

Look at diabetes. That's the malfunction of the endocrine system (chemical.) If you have type 2 they put you on all types of pills to balance things out. But meds alone do not help. You have to take responsability. You have to look at your diet and make changes. You have to exercise more. You have to work at it. The pills do not make it go away.

Then if you need insulin (both type 1 and type 2) you still have to work at it. Yes, the insulin helps. But you have to learn to count carbs. You have to know how to exercise and how it effects you. You have to work at it and it's hard work.

It's the same with mental illness. Whether you are on meds or not, you still have to take responsability for taking care of yourself. Proper diet, proper sleep schedul, proper exercise, proper therapy. The goal is wellness.

But just like diabetes, just "willing it to go away" doesn't mean it's gone. Even if you're in remission it's not gone, it's still there. You have to keep working at it all the time.

[venusss]

Originally Posted by Eliza Jane

You say this a lot and I'm not sure what you mean. Neurological research is showing that there are definite differences in brain structure, function, and neurotransmitters in individuals with mental illnesses. I recently went to a fascinating lecture about how there are structural differences in the brain that make it more likely for some individuals to get PTSD after a traumatic experience than others. No it isn't a simple "you are low in serotonin, so let's add some more" as some people think. But it also isn't as if everyone starts out with the same deck of cards.

I wholeheartedly agree that meds aren't the only appropriate solution. And even people who can be stabilized on meds benefit from therapy and other lifestyle changes.

Best,
EJ

what is so hard to understand? WORLD SUCKS, WE ARE DEPRESSED AND MESSED UP BUT BLAME IT ON CHEMICALS AND GENES. Here.

so we have science....and does it tell something about correlation versus causation or these brain changes? And can we be really reduced by bundle of genes? I don't think so.

and what about neuroplasticity? Yes, you can indeed change your brain structure.

and as for PTSD... at certain point I'd worry if the person wasn't impacted. Maybe it's not really "healthy" to go through traumatizing stuff unaffected.

Take this all on philosophical level... you cannot scan and analyze everything in life. Truth is relative in time and space anyways.

[Eliza Jane]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

what is so hard to understand? WORLD SUCKS, WE ARE DEPRESSED AND MESSED UP BUT BLAME IT ON CHEMICALS AND GENES. Here.

so we have science....and does it tell something about correlation versus causation or these brain changes? And can we be really reduced by bundle of genes? I don't think so.

and what about neuroplasticity? Yes, you can indeed change your brain structure.

and as for PTSD... at certain point I'd worry if the person wasn't impacted. Maybe it's not really "healthy" to go through traumatizing stuff unaffected.

Take this all on philosophical level... you cannot scan and analyze everything in life. Truth is relative in time and space anyways.

Really no need to shout. I was trying to be respectful and understand exactly what you are saying. I ask that you do the same.

Sure, there are many people that have traumatic lives and develop mental illness. But there are many people who have had great lives and do too. I would say that is me. I have had some bumps in my life, but really nothing horrible and traumatic. Just because some people have more environmental roots of their difficulties doesn't mean that everyone does. In fact, I don't think that most medical and psychological researchers downplay the role of environment. The diathesis-stress model (where there is a predisposition that doesn't express itself unless a trigger is present) is very commonly discussed.

I agree that science can muddle correlation and causation. But we are starting to gather non-retrospective data that is helping to shed light on things. The PTSD work I am referring to was actually prospective research.

EJ