[Secretum]

I was raised strict Christian, and I kept those beliefs for the first 15 years of my life. Then, I began to question and doubt them, becoming an agnostic for three years. At 18, I converted back to Christianity, mostly out of fear that I'd go to hell if I didn't.

Since September, I've been having some problems falling asleep, so I spend time thinking about philosophical questions. One night, it hit me: how can I worship a God who condemns the majority of His creation to hell? How could I call such a God good?

I mean nothing against Christians. My entire family is Christian, and I love them dearly. If your Christian faith brings you comfort, that is a wonderful thing. I'm not trying to start a religious debate here.

I'm just trying to describe the world view that I have been developing over the past several months.

So, this is what I believe now:

-We have no free will. This is obvious to me. Everything has a cause, including our thoughts and behavior. Because of this, there is no personal responsibility.

-Because everything, including behavior, is caused by many factors outside a person's control, we can be accepting of everyone, regardless of what s/he has done in the past. We also can be forgiving of ourselves.

-panpsychism-i.e. everything is mind. Everything, not just the human brain, is conscious on some level. I know this because I've had telepathic conversations with "inanimate" objects. Furthermore, what is harder to believe: that something physical (the brain) can magically give rise to something psychological (the mind), or that everything is mental already?

-There is no "self" and "other". You can slice and dice reality however you please, i.e. draw boundaries of an object in any way.

-Thoughts are the result of "psychological collisions" in which bits of consciousness collide with one another and exchange energy.

-since everything is mind, there is no physical world. It is an illusion.

-After death, consciousness is maintained, but the illusion of a "self" is broken.

-there are an infinite number of alternate universes, and every conceivable event has/will occur in some area of the multiverse.

So, that's what I believe now. What do you all think of it? It needs to be refined a bit, but it makes a lot of sense to me.

That's cool. I'm a lot of the same way.... I think that maybe something exists after death, but it's prolly more spiritual and dark than anything else. Half the time though, I think that there is nothing more than what we have today.

I respect your opinions, I really do. I just see this thread sparking a huge debate. the religion ones always do on here.

[faerie_moon_x]

I remember a few years ago there was a very prominant t.v. minister who, suddenly, saw all the suffering innocent children who were of non-Christian, unindustrialized tribes and countries and wondered why would go punish them all to hell if they had no knowledge of Christianity. And it was like a bolt of lightning hit him and he decided to stop believing in that whole hell thing, because it didn't make any sense. And he was not well received after that.

I personally have a background of quite a bit of theologic study and understanding of many different world faiths and in the end, they all hold very similar core values. And I believe it is not our place to decide who goes to heaven or hell or anywhere. And, condeming anyone of being of a different faith or even no faith is wrong. We are all here together, so live and let live, is my motto. And be kind to each other, because the world is hard enough as it is.

Whatever faith brings you comfort is the correct one. So, it doesn't matter to me if someone is Christian, Muslim, Pegan, Buddhist, Athiest, or anything else.

what changed my mind a long time ago is that gay people were condemned by the evangelical christian faith. that's what i was a lifetime ago.

I really support the fight for gay marriage, even though i am not gay myself, i think that there are just too many good people, like really good people that are gay, to ever say that I condemn anyone who is.

[venusss]

Interesting... I have few points to make though...

What do you mean by no responsibility?

You realize that if you throw out the concept... you not only dismiss evil deeds... but good ones as well?

Can you really compare Mother Theresa and Adolf Hitler? Do you think they just happened... or did the former consciously work on doing great deeds? As did the later?

Same circustances produce different people. Hard times produce heroes just as people who are... not so great.

I personally prefer to acknowledge people's greatness... even if it means I have to acknowledge there is bad people in the world. I kinda have hard time thinking that let's say Milosevic was just consequence of his time...

-Because everything, including behavior, is caused by many factors outside a person's control, we can be accepting of everyone, regardless of what s/he has done in the past. We also can be forgiving of ourselves.

forgivness is not contradictory to responsibility. IN fact, it's part of it. If there is no responsibility... what is there to forgive?

And again... responsibility goes both ways. Yes, it's convenient to say you are not responsible for the bad about you... but if it is so, the good about you would not be your doing either.

-since everything is mind, there is no physical world. It is an illusion.

Philosophers said this from time to time.

I do believe there is physical world, but it's hard to grasp. Every person percieves it differently. There's shared reality, but that's just combination of individual interpretations.

Hence truth is relative and bound in time and space. Science tells us what we know at the moment, not how it really is. And morality? Time and space oriented.

[faerie_moon_x]

I do believe there is a physical world but that there is spiritual world directly behind it. So, to me, all things have a spirit, which includes things are not alive. And "spirit" may not be the correct term, but an energy. We can't necessarily see the spiritual world, but we can all sense it and are all connected to it. Some are just more aware than others that it is there.

All things are energy. Even Einstein said that.

I agree that, yes, there are things that effect our behavior but how we respond to our own behavior is key to our growth and wellbeing. So, for example, if I have an episode I may not be fully in control during it, but after I know if there were things I did that were wrong or hurtful, so I apologize. And, I work toward wellness to lessen the number of episodes I am having. Know my triggers, try to put on the breaks before I fall over the edge whenever possible. That's just an example.

Just a few days ago my husband was watching a news story on research that in people we would consider "evil" (serial killers, Hitler, etc.) that they have different matter in their brain and it shows up on a scan.

[Secretum]

I don't believe that we have any control over our actions, good or evil. Two people can be raised in the "same" environment yet turn out completely differently because of other forces beyond their control; e.g. genetics. We don't have any control. Hitler and Mother Theresa displayed different behavior because a different set of forces served to shape their thoughts, beliefs, and actions.

I know that my deterministic beliefs are not popular, but they are all that makes sense to me.

I believe that truth is relative and absolute at the same time.

we have to hold onto what makes sense to us. it's the only thing that gets us by sometimes.

[BlueInanna]

I like it Secretum. But I do believe we have free will. At the same time bad situations happen to people. So free will combined with social factors out of our control. I enjoy pondering illusions, reality, multiverses. I'm baptized Catholic and do have an adoration for Christ teachings, and Mother Mary who to me is the Goddess hidden safely yet honored during the patriarchal shift. And I've learned much from other teachings/religions too. I think it's great to break it down and take with you what feels true to you, like you're doing.

[Anika.]

I *think* we have a lot of control through choice. It's like a choose your own adventure story book. Same story but different choices lead to different outcomes. Everything has a cause, doesn't remove that you can do with it what you choose. Your choices are not just a result of cause, is the message I see in my life.

I don't know, but I am unsure why people separate physical from spiritual. I don't know why they cannot be one. One with many parts, noy even parts just different veiws.. through our eyes. The physical word it pretty amazing. The dimensions to it that we don't even grasp, that we dont even see but we are still in it either way. Why do we need the physical to be separate from spiritual or mind?

Thats just how I see it Secretum. I am glad you are searching for your own understandings. I was also raised in a heavy christian home. Sometimes you need to reevaluate and take your own jouney. Often our beliefs will change over time.. I think the more you search the more they will change. I like to leave doors open, because none of know. We can speculate and formulate, concluding is much harder.

I seperate physical from spiritual because I understand physical. it is what makes sense and it has logic and control behind it. Spiritual leaves me in a world of unknown, completely out of my comfort zone.

thought I would share.

[Anika.]

Thats interesting DH.. I am interested in how that "matter" got to be that way. I think you can change brain matter, as a result maybe of choices and the effect they cause in brain function , who knows what really. Not like you do it consciously but it happens, if it can change it can change again. Neuroplacitity touches on this a lot.

[faerie_moon_x]

Originally Posted by Anika.

Thats interesting DH.. I am interested in how that "matter" got to be that way. I think you can change brain matter, as a result maybe of choices and the effect they cause in brain function , who knows what really. Not like you do it consciously but it happens, if it can change it can change again. Neuroplacitity touches on this a lot.

Yes, it was extremely interesting. The differences showed up as dark spots on the MRI scans of the brains of these individuals.

It is a question of if it is something genetic or something from experiences, but perhaps it is both. Perhaps there is something that makes someone more likely to develop "evil" matter instead of not develop it.

[Anika.]

I even if there is something that makes it more likely there is still choice. I dont believe anyone is birn genetically evil. I know some people say that psycopaths don't have a soul, I don't buy it. For one we can't even prove souls exist let alone who has one and who doesn't. I do belive we have way more power than we think or imagine over these things. Maybe we just lack the know how.

Its like those bipolar brain scans which are highly contoversial. I wish I had been brain scaned throughout life just to see what that would look like. Although I don't really want to be exposed to that much radiation.

I have got to see my brain twice, but the "veiwings" were close together. I had a cat scan but cat scans are poor quality, so poor that they often cannot tell if an abnormality in the arteries is an actual aneuryism or not unless it has already ruptured.

I had a cerebral angiogram, you can see parts of the brain very vaugely most just arteries and blood flow are prominent. I do have some physical abnormalities, but dang still did not get to see the brain.

Would be weird if we could have periodic scanning to see whats happening.

Do you remember if they had the same problem areas in the mri scans or if they were different than each other? I'm gonna see if I can find it online too curious to see what they found.

[Darth Bane]

Secretum.... I am atheist... dont believe in God/Soul/Spirit/Afterlife...

I stopped believing in god when i was 16...i made this argument at that time...which afterwards i found out is called "problem of evil " ..it goes like...

the problem of evil is the question of how to reconcile the existence of evil with that of a deity who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

it seems you are going with this argument

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_Hell

One night, it hit me: how can I worship a God who condemns the majority of His creation to hell? How could I call such a God good?

[Darth Bane]

since everything is mind, there is no physical world. It is an illusion

like matrix ??? but there is dialogue in matrix

how do you know this is not "Matrix"... in "Matrix" food tastes better

[AeonDM]

I was a christian. I am now a psycho-spiritual atheist. I know I am born with a free will. I know I can't change things I have no control in. I know I can't expect favorable outcome in the wrong choices I make. But I do know this, I can choose my behavior and the values I believe in, regardless, almost.

[Anika.]

Richards Dawkins talks about naturally occuring morality even in the absence of religion of spirituality which is kind of interesting.

I am an atheist just a spiritual one.

[Darth Bane]

Anika. ...... Richards Dawkins is my favorite author... his books "The selfish gene" and "unweaving the rainbow" are the must read!!!!!