[Icare dixit]

Are you left-hand or right-hand dominant (or fully ambidextrous), not just when it comes to writing?

I am pretty much left-hand dominant or ambidextrous, except for writing, where I use my right hand only.

[wiretwister]

left hand for everything ... are you thinking this may be an indicator for bp ... or just curious ...

[Ocean Swimmer]

I'm right handed all the way!
My stepdad is right handed but bowls,plays baseball and golfs left handed.

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by wiretwister

left hand for everything ... are you thinking this may be an indicator for bp ... or just curious ...

Many scientific studies suggest it and I strongly believe it is, yes (for a subgroup). However, it could be more to the SZ end of the spectrum only. More studies are in support of the idea for SZ, but quite some for BP or a combined group. What is investigated is brain lateralisation, but this is an indicator for left-handedness or ambidexterity.

Some of us talked about it in the Dyscalculia thread. If you are interested and can't find it, tell me and I will give a link.

[Northern_Spirit]

Right hand dominant ambidextrous. I write with my right but do everything else in an odd mix of right and left.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

[smallwonderer]

Originally Posted by Icare dixit

Many scientific studies suggest it and I strongly believe it is, yes (for a subgroup). However, it could be more to the SZ end of the spectrum only. More studies are in support of the idea for SZ, but quite some for BP or a combined group. What is investigated is brain lateralisation, but this is an indicator for left-handedness or ambidexterity.

Can we start an informal poll of the forum to find out? (e.g. like what was used to set the chat topic for BP chat?)

Lefty here, but when I was manic once I found out that I am fully ambidextrous at writing in some cases (e.g. on a whiteboard) and that my righthand handwriting actually looks nicer. When I was manic I thought that was a *big deal*. Embarrassing...

[scatterbrained04]

I'm right handed for everything.

Sent from my LGLS990 using Tapatalk

[Angry1541]

I was made into a righty....but when I first picked up a pool cue, gun, guitar, it felt right to do it left handed...I learned to do it the other way though...

[fishin fool]

I am both, depending on what I am doing.
Right hand is dominant so I write with my right.
I throw with my right also.
I golf lefty, play hockey lefty, bat lefty and use
a spinning real for fishing lefty.
I'm all mixed up.

[Roaming_bird]

I'm a righty for most things, but when learning things I almost always try to do it left-handed until corrected.

[Wanderlust90]

Right handed for everything.

I am right handed, but more ambi lately because of MS.

My son is bipolar and left handed but also Bambi.

I have read that schizo are more left handed.

[Icare dixit]

Smallwonderer, sure, but I don't know how to start such a poll (can't edit my original/first post anymore).

ValentinaVVV, those with schizophrenia (probably also but less so SZA (there is relatively little research done into SZA), BP lesser still) are more markedly any psychotic disorder trait or more abnormal given some biological markers, because of the severity of their problems, early prodrome relative severity, causing relatively early onset in most cases.

BP is more heterogeneous and it is not easy doing research with such a group. There is (more and more) a move towards at least separating (controlling for) BP-I from BP-2, but even then it seems like there must be subgroups that are in some way more like those with SZ and others that

I think prodrome severity is the best way to go about this. So not just feeling (somewhat) different as a child or having mild mood swings or sleep disturbances, but rather serious problems already (with memory, conceptual organisation and beliefs, pervasive fantasies, as well as sleep, mood and expression). It is more common in SZ, but it can certainly be part of some BP (both BP-I and BP-II) or even relatively mild-BP BPD.

I guess the specifier "with psychotic features" would be necessary, but not sufficient.

[Icare dixit]

Maybe instead of a poll, it would be more informative (given what I previously wrote) to also state your exact diagnosis (of course only when you feel comfortable doing so) and either early or late onset (of mania or psychotic or severe depression), before or after age 15, respectively. Even some diagnostic history could be enlightening.

So BP-I, BP-II or SZA/BP with the specifier(s) and whether you have comorbid BPD.

I have been diagnosed with SZA/BP, no specifier. I was previously diagnosed with psychotic disorder NOS, specifier "with mood dysregulation". Onset (severe, bipolar-post-mania-like, depression) at 11, so early-onset. BPD personality.

[Icare dixit]

What about brushing your teeth? Might be interesting because it is a skill acquired early on.

[BastetsMuse]

Originally Posted by Icare dixit

Are you left-hand or right-hand dominant (or fully ambidextrous), not just when it comes to writing?

I am pretty much left-hand dominant or ambidextrous, except for writing, where I use my right hand only.

Left hand dominant... pretty much lefty for everything.

[raspberrytorte]

I'm right handed for everything.

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by BastetsMuse

Left hand dominant... pretty much lefty for everything.

Just (very) curious, what is your (exact) diagnosis, if you don't mind telling?

Raspberrytorte, since you are diagnosed SZA/BP, do you suffer most from delusions or hallucinations?

Sorry for all these specific questions, but I am really curious whether we can find some way to find certain BP subgroups by phenotypical and genotypical characteristics. Brain lateralisation would be a nice biological marker, possibly related to only a few genotypes or maybe just one.

Such research is best done in a naturalistic way, because quantitative studies with lots of people with BP are many times inconclusive. We know there is something going on, some heterogeneity, but it is mostly just a costly guessing game. And very slow.

Just guessing in a more natural setting (ok, this begins to sound like a freak show : sorry, that's just science), using some intuition and quick backtracking, might just help us find some real causes for BP (apart from the psychological and drug or alcohol addictions, which nicely divide BP in three subgroups, already).

It's just like evolution: sometimes you just need a God doing some rough sketches before going forward. Saves time. Saves lives. Hopefully (many) lives of people with BP, everyone helping with the search.

I might seem manically zealous, but I really am not. We need to survive and thrive (ok, I am also influenced by the thread on hibernating human subspecies and evolution).

[BipolaRNurse]

Left-handed for most activities, ambidextrous for a few others such as brushing my hair and putting on makeup. I think handedness is heriditary...my mother was a lefty, so is my sister, and I have one left-handed child.

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by BipolaRNurse

Left-handed for most activities, ambidextrous for a few others such as brushing my hair and putting on makeup. I think handedness is heriditary...my mother was a lefty, so is my sister, and I have one left-handed child.

Join the club (maybe not: don't want to create some artificial divide)!

It would very probably also have to be hereditary if it indeed tells us anything about (a) BP (type) (which is very, very likely).

Right handed. (Left brained, right handed.)

Something that may be of interest and/or related to topic(?)...I can write in both cursive and printing backwards. Upside down too, but (easily) only in printing. I also write in code at same rate as straight up writing. It comes quite easily. The thing that strikes me -- especially in the reverse and upside downs that there's a letting go in thinking. Just do. Left, right, upside down, the directions things go in, whatever. I attribute it to lateral thinking, which has significant correlation with BP.

BP II, GAD/OCD (GAD for sure, I'm not sure if it was changed or added to the other) and (inattentive) ADHD.
BP was "standard" onset (clearly, anyway) at 20. Severity pretty high for BP II, having some BP I features.

(Only because people tend to ask...The code is made of 2 alphabet systems, a symbol for something that "felt" too decodable, and marks with certain sounds. It all started with not wanting people to be able to read my stuff so that I might write freely. I started using it frequently with a potent but short-lived bout of paranoia. Most recent journal is exclusively written in it. Aaaand, there ya have it.)

(Sorry for blathering on. I'm having tactile hallucinations, so can't sleep, and trying to keep mind off it. Not working terribly well, but at least enough to not be totally flipping out. Going to try more meds...)

[Icare dixit]

Innerzone, thanks for the detailed post!

I totally get the lateral-thinking, just do it, approach. In countries where they walk/drive at the wrong side of the road I do exactly the same: don't think about, just do it. When I start to think about it I am a real danger to myself and others.

It does sound rather "mixed-brained" to me.

Do any of you also struggle at times to remember passwords or PINs, while you are capable of entering them, if you "just do it"?

If so, the following may tell us why.

It is very long, but years in the making (including some other similar posts). I would greatly appreciate your comments and/or suggestions.

It is possibly due to hindered cell "migration" and (or due to) cell death and/or decreased myelination and cell interconnectivity. That would be primarily in some parts of the prefrontal cortex (the very advanced dorsolateral and ventromedial parts), but more interestingly the cortical anterior cingulate cortex and the subcortical basal ganglia (possibly mostly the striatum) (and some, possibly quite majorly important, interaction with the cerebellum. All these areas are very much functionally related to SZ and BP.

So far the 101 (well actually quite specific, of course) in neuroscience.

The takeaway from this is that all these areas are more or less involved in the arbitrarily sequential operations/functions in the brain. Any (rote) learning of facts, use of language, speech, writing, walking, hair- and teeth-brushing and all other internalised movements and associations go through and use these brain areas.

Now, my hypothesis is that the toxicity for/of the brain that is associated with SZ and, to a lesser extent BP (mixed group and/or just less severity, less severity being unlikely given the enormous, enduring excitotoxicity of mania?), causes the brain to prioritise or focus on (not actively!), just a small set of "tricks"/habits, which by necessity are also much reduced/abstract (so that habits that are similar in function/meaning can use the same brain "instruments", memory storage space, leading to a smaller set of "basic brain data" to store). A good analogy would be evolution (by natural selection).

That would explain why and how people with dyslexia or dyscalculia or whatever you might call it (I use the umbrella term dysreductia, which includes SZ and BP prodromes and consequent syndromes), have difficulty with learning arbitrary sequences, but once they have learned one, they are both more capable of "transferring" that knowledge to be used for similar sequences, but they are also much better in them, since there is less "clutter", there are fewer perceived inconsistencies: action is taken with just enough reduced perception so as to excel. It also requires less energy: it is more energy efficient.

Mania makes these processes far more pronounced (just because of cell damage as well as the effectively shutting down of some, mostly (frontal-)cortical, brain areas). Things blend together.

This all looks perfect, allowing for quick reactions, but it has the ingredients for disaster. Your reactions become less accurate.

Indeed, when fear or anxiety sets in (the end of the "just doing it"), all brain areas switch on and much of what is very much damaged and left unrepaired takes over: call it the very rational checks and balances system. But since much of it is damaged great mistakes are made: things are lost or (abstract) emotions are rationalised wrongly. I call this "secondary psychosis initiation": you (auto)rationalise using a, or a few, wrong assumption(s).

Most of the problem is not just damage (it a necessary prerequisite even if only mild: common), but the speed at which you rationalise. Call it "hyper-rationalisation". It may mess up not just thought structures, including the relation to the self, but all kinds of perception: auditory, visual, tactile, olfactory, proprioceptive, etc.

A (hopefully) good analogy is taking an extended lunch break, then rushing to finish your work: more mistakes are probably made.

Fear for not finishing your work in time first builds confidence ("I can do this without thinking!"). What you have to do also becomes more important ("no time for chitchat!"). All you can talk or think about is work and you do it very fast.

Thinking to much about your habits will lead to anxiety ("there seems to be no rational underpinning" (they have been lost due to being largely inconsequential) "of what I do, is it actually correct.") and this will actually cause some kind of mini-psychosis: you make mistakes.

Just like one wrong assumption at work can make all the difference ("do I have to send these requests for a quote to 221B or 221A Baker Street?"), you might lose touch with reality.

SZ psychosis initiation might very well just be a very short mania cut short by fear. In case of SZ, this may primarily be caused, it being the feature that most distinguishes SZ from BP(-I) and SZA(/BP), by environmental factors: there is a greater probability, greater negative consequences and greater consequent fear of failure. There is also a greater need to continue after this "initiation", not allowing for "recharging, rewiring and rational backtracking and resolution" depression/recuperation, leaving the delusional thinking intact, leading to a (relatively) long period of psychosis. It is like you keep stumbling (anxiety, confidence build-up and overconfident and too fast rationalisation) and you don't know why.

Clinically, the only things to do are reducing anxiety ("pre-rationalising" and/or anxiolytic meds), finding the cause of brain toxicity and reducing or eliminating that toxicity (neuroprotective meds and/or supplements and excitement and stress reduction).

The first and last of these is generally already done in psycho- and pharmacotherapy (mostly with the exception of the necessary supplements). The second of these is still mostly lacking, but especially due to the heterogeneous character of BP and (even) SZ, very important: there might (even) be a cure.

All this is very tentative, but there is very much scientific literature, as well as anecdotal evidence, to support each part of it.

Edit:
As I believe in a continuum from the psychotic spectrum, through normalcy, to the autism spectrum, assuming we all experience some form of mania, the problems experienced by those with ASD might best/also be described as transnormal, ultra-rapid mania.

As a side note: some other (arguably) supporting evidence is the relatively low incidence of cancer and the high incidence of cardiovascular problems: rapid cell death may lower the chances of cancer cell proliferation and heighten the chance of damage to the heart and vascular cells.

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by Innerzone

Right handed. (Left brained, right handed.)

Something that may be of interest and/or related to topic(?)...I can write in both cursive and printing backwards. Upside down too, but (easily) only in printing. I also write in code at same rate as straight up writing. It comes quite easily. The thing that strikes me -- especially in the reverse and upside downs that there's a letting go in thinking. Just do. Left, right, upside down, the directions things go in, whatever. I attribute it to lateral thinking, which has significant correlation with BP.

BP II, GAD/OCD (GAD for sure, I'm not sure if it was changed or added to the other) and (inattentive) ADHD.
BP was "standard" onset (clearly, anyway) at 20. Severity pretty high for BP II, having some BP I features.

(Only because people tend to ask...The code is made of 2 alphabet systems, a symbol for something that "felt" too decodable, and marks with certain sounds. It all started with not wanting people to be able to read my stuff so that I might write freely. I started using it frequently with a potent but short-lived bout of paranoia. Most recent journal is exclusively written in it. Aaaand, there ya have it.)

(Sorry for blathering on. I'm having tactile hallucinations, so can't sleep, and trying to keep mind off it. Not working terribly well, but at least enough to not be totally flipping out. Going to try more meds...)

Just from reading your post, I would have it changed to BP-I (if it is all the same to you and of course only if your psychiatrist agrees). Especially because of the hallucinations and ADHD inattentive (the latter being very much like, and can have been misdiagnosed as such at an early age, SZ/BP prodromes. Also your mood dysregulation may be (I don't know, mind: please tell me!) more continuously erratic due to generalised anxiety (which personally, taking the place of a clinician for the moment, I would not never separately diagnose) and OCD issues.

Did you receive your ADHD-i diagnosis before or after your BP diagnosis? Do you only experience tactile hallucinations when depressed or (hypo)manic? Do your tactile hallucinations feed into, or maybe cause or have started, your OCD? If so in answering the last question, I would try a different approach for that, in addition to "normal" psychotherapy for OCD, only if needed after the tactile hallucinations have been taken care of (you might then not experience residual OCD problems). Did you have OCD problems early on (in your childhood or early adolescence)? Might these have been caused by tactile hallucinations (it's possible for hallucinations to only be recognised at a later age)? Did you have clear lateral thinking in your childhood as well (again, maybe misdiagnosed as ADHD-i), which might in some way resemble (formal) thought disorders? To help distinguish between the two: did your surroundings, outside stimulation, cause mainly your problems or internal thought processes?

About one third of people with BP (could be a bit less: I forgot the exact figures) are diagnosed with ADHD. I think most, but arguably not all, are misdiagnosed, having experienced, and do still experience more severely, SZ/BP prodromes.

[Icare dixit]

Innerzone, I give you a hug for every further question you answer!

This one's for free:

Originally Posted by Icare dixit

Innerzone, I give you a hug for every further question you answer!
This one's for free:

Thanks! You have unwittingly created a very positive resolution for me. In short: no working computer for a year. Intention to take in. Lack of money. BUT, knowing there was NO WAY I could tackle this from phone, I was troubleshooting computer from phone and have resolved to work really hard to tech-up and try to fix it on my own. We'll see. (I'm working in email with lots of saves, because it's highly doubtful that I've "solved" it from today's efforts, but so far, so good.). Apologies in advance for the severe "pruning".

Originally Posted by Icare dixit

...In countries where they walk/drive at the wrong side of the road I do exactly the same: don't think about, just do it. When I start to think about it I am a real danger to myself and others.
...Do any of you also struggle at times to remember passwords or PINs, while you are capable of entering them, if you "just do it"?...If so, the following may tell us why. It is very long, but years in the making (including some other similar posts). I would greatly appreciate your comments and/or suggestions...

...The takeaway from this is that all these areas are more or less involved in the arbitrarily sequential operations/functions in the brain. Any (rote) learning of facts, use of language, speech, writing, walking, hair- and teeth-brushing and all other internalised movements and associations go through and use these brain areas….

Wrong side of the road, lol. I did just as you described when in Ireland. Also, people thought I was nuts to choose a manual because more actions to do backwards. But that is what I've always driven, so, though more complex, easier, because I wouldn't have to think so much. Do, don't think. Went like a breeze. Automatics confuse me no matter which side I'm on(!)

I have to confess that I can only slightly follow your theory. And sad to say, but this is a "sharp" day. (I can't follow anything on spaced out days). While I think the backwards/upside down it is from lateral thinking, I think that other things are from muscle memory, which is of course what's going on in the case of everyday things that come naturally unless you stop to think too much. (I don't think the upside down/backwards thing can be attributed to muscle memory because I do it only super rarely. Like many years apart).

I don't have a clue how muscle memory works biologically. But that's ok.

Originally Posted by Icare dixit

Just from reading your post, I have it changed to BP-I (if it is all the same to you and of course only if your psychiatrist agrees). Especially because of the hallucinations and ADHD inattentive (the latter being very much like, and can have been misdiagnosed as such at an early age, SZ/BP prodromes. Also your mood dysregulation may be (I don't know, mind: please tell me!) more continuously erratic due to generalised anxiety (which personally, taking the place of a clinician for the moment, I would not never separately diagnose) and OCD issues.

Did you receive your ADHD-i diagnosis before or after your BP diagnosis? Do you only experience tactile hallucinations when depressed or (hypo)manic? Do your tactile hallucinations feed into, or maybe cause or have started, your OCD? If so in answering the last question, I would try a different approach for that, in addition to "normal" psychotherapy for OCD, only if needed after the tactile hallucinations have been taken care of (you might then not experience residual OCD problems). Did you have OCD problems early on (in your childhood or early adolescence)? Might these have been caused by tactile hallucinations (it's possible for hallucinations to only be recognised at a later age)? Did you have clear lateral thinking in your childhood as well (again, maybe misdiagnosed as ADHD-i), which might in some way resemble (formal) thought disorders? To help distinguish between the two: did your surroundings, outside stimulation, cause mainly your problems or internal thought processes?

About one third of people with BP (could be a bit less: I forgot the exact figures) are diagnosed with ADHD. I think most, but arguably not all, are misdiagnosed, having experienced, and do still experience more severely, SZ/BP prodromes.

I think she just keeps it as BP II because the depressions are such a dominant feature, and any BP I things are quite spread out and haven't been a big problem.

The ADHD was a late dx. I can see the case made for it, so I'm comfortable enough with the dx, but am not 100% on board with it. The meds do help, but not eliminate. With there being crossover symptoms, it can't. ADHD dx was a few years after BP dx.

The GAD certainly does no favors for the BP, but goes beyond, so I totally see it being a separate dx. (I wasn't sure if you thought it should or shouldn't be -- double negative, typo or?). The mood dysregulation is not continuously erratic, so no on that one.

Oddly enough, I'm not totally clear in which state some of my hallucinations occur. Some yes, but others, no. I'm not great at keeping track, and don't always recognize my states (especially hypomania) unless someone points it out. Also, I don't get too concerned over every little thing. To me, the tactile ones are the worst/most disturbing. They are bad enough by themselves, but a HUGE aggravation I have about them is how they are totally written off as being only in the drug/alcohol realm. NOT THE CASE FOR ME!!!!!, so it bothers me to be judged with a totally inaccurate forgone conclusion!!! Consequently, I nearly always keep my mouth shut. Rant over. My psych knows that is not the cause, though is not sure whether to attribute it to BP or OCD. Especially because sometimes it's tripped off by thinking obsessively about bugs and sometimes not.

Visual are usually with depression.The most disturbing visual one was a black cat walking across the floor. Right there, not a motion to the side. Auditory… pretty random, though sometimes they're a clue that I'm on the way up. They're unclear, not outside myself and do not command. Olfactory… random... I think. Infrequent, but always same smell (rotten chicken). Generally I don't freak out over any of them, though I did have a MAJOR flip out over "the bugs" once. TG only BF saw it (especially because I ripped my clothes off, lol!. Well, lol now…)

Regarding OCD itself, yes, some stuff goes way back. Mostly obsession (which I think is why it's confusing with GAD), but some compulsions too. For example I have a number that if not observed I fear something bad will happen. Which is ridiculous, but there you have it. The number is also part of a repetitive motion I've done since time out of mind. Etc.

Lateral thinking since childhood.

I just looked up formal thought disorders to refresh my memory. I can relate to quite a few of these, but the only ones that are actually problematic are the BP related ones. Some of the others… honestly? Amuse me(!) Hope no one finds that offensive. Just speaking for myself. Sure, it can be a bit frustrating, and I can come off a bit weird, but so what? I've got a strange sense of humor and am definitely self-deprecating (for better and worse), so why not just roll with it, right? With nothing to back it up, it almost seems to me that some of them are by-products of lateral thinking. Loose associations, after all…

Phew!