[JanusunaJ]

I was watching a movie last night. There was a one-on-one conversation between two characters who'd supposedly known each other for decades. They were colleagues(there was a hierarchy to their relationship) and friends.

Superior's character was that of being altruistic and logical. Subordinate's character was the same. However, during the conversation the subordinate saw that the superior had egregiously lost his way.

The subordinate, in a state of consternation, asked: "When did you abandon reason for madness?"

Has anyone else abandoned reason for madness or something similar?

It seems that when I find myself in a state of madness, it's not because I'd abandoned reason for madness, it's because reason or trying to employ reason had driven me mad.

The problem and attempt to use reason to find a solution becomes an intrusive thought. I find myself in a detrimental and deafening infinite regress series where I don't have enough information.

Years ago, I was in my first "mad" state and called a close friend who happened to be an MD, I don't remember much of what he said, but I do remember him saying that I had to stop attempting to employ rationale.

Reason seems to drive me mad. But...it has also been a tool that helped me succeed in college, grad school, and most other endeavors.

[Icare dixit]

That sounds like an anxiety disorder to me. Are we talking the colloquially mad or having psychosis/mania?

[RainyDay107]

I don't know what you consider "madness," I have a few kinds lol

I generally act based upon intuition rather than "reason"?

I think your thread is over my head, lol. It sounds interesting. I think superior versus subordinate made my brain shut down. I like to think we're all equal. =]

And I want a Pegasus, too. lol. One for everyone lol

[JanusunaJ]

Originally Posted by Icare dixit

That sounds like an anxiety disorder to me. Are we talking the colloquially mad or having psychosis/mania?

Mad being finding yourself in the full throw of a mixed episode or severe depression or mania.

[JanusunaJ]

Originally Posted by glamslam

I don't know what you consider "madness," I have a few kinds lol

I generally act based upon intuition rather than "reason"?

I think your thread is over my head, lol. It sounds interesting. I think superior versus subordinate made my brain shut down. I like to think we're all equal. =]

And I want a Pegasus, too. lol. One for everyone lol

Superior/Subordinate in the sense that one was the "regional manager" while another was a "branch manager."

When I'm in psychosis I try to employ "reason" but it doesn't work and makes me more confused. I've come to accept there are many things which are true, despite them defying logic. I once believed this could not possibly be so and was only interested in such things which could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. We are in mere infancy of understanding all which is around us. Logic and reason are nice, but they can't explain everything and certainly do not stop my symptoms when I try to deploy them. Sometimes logic and reason has helped me though, I don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I'm not really sure I answered your question or truly understand what it is youre asking but you have my answer all the same. (((Hugs)))

[RainyDay107]

Well, I had a mixed episode with a psychotic break at work once. I yelled at everyone *ouch*. I didn't get in trouble it was odd.

Lemme think over your post more.

[JanusunaJ]

Originally Posted by ElsaMars

When I'm in psychosis I try to employ "reason" but it doesn't work and makes me more confused. I've come to accept there are many things which are true, despite them defying logic. I once believed this could not possibly be so and was only interested in such things which could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. We are in mere infancy of understanding all which is around us. Logic and reason are nice, but they can't explain everything and certainly do not stop my symptoms when I try to deploy them. Sometimes logic and reason has helped me though, I don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I'm not really sure I answered your question or truly understand what it is youre asking but you have my answer all the same. (((Hugs)))

It's usually when I'm either hypomanic or in a mixed episode when trying to employ "reason" that the situation is exacerbated. It definitely makes me more confused.

[RainyDay107]

I was completely delusional at the time. I thought a secret society was after me. I won't go into details, you probably get the picture. I was VERY paranoid. I'd lost ability to reason as I'd lost contact with reality.

[JanusunaJ]

At present, a problem using reason is examining my job options with consideration to my education, job history, and psychological health. I've asked friends, my sister, my mom and I get no response(from friends) or "I don't know"(from my mom) or commiseration(from my sister).

This leads to depression.

[Icare dixit]

Madness is extremely rational. The core beliefs, the underlying assumptions, are irrational. You also assume more so you might say you abandon reason for madness. Inferences become assumptions. When any of them changes you have to start again. You can't just retrace your steps.

A mixed state (or a BPD crisis) will do that and it's maddening. The mental fatigue might make things worse. Though I think it only feels that way. It's another way of going mad. You become desperate for it to end, but mental fatigue becomes physical fatigue and that's a great way to end the madness (at least for a while). It just feels like forever.

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by QuixoticDeLaEternal

At present, a problem using reason is examining my job options with consideration to my education, job history, and psychological health. I've asked friends, my sister, my mom and I get no response(from friends) or "I don't know"(from my mom) or commiseration(from my sister).

This leads to depression.

Maybe you're talking about ambivalence.

[bioChE]

Are you looking for a job? Do you have a job? What field? What responsibilities do you want? All that background would help to give context for your original post/query.

[JanusunaJ]

Originally Posted by Icare dixit

Maybe you're talking about ambivalence.

Regarding that thought process there is a level of ambivalence. It's a conundrum I've yet to be able to figure out. One problem though is that I spend way too much time thinking about how to solve the problem instead of taking action.

[JanusunaJ]

Originally Posted by bioChE

Are you looking for a job? Do you have a job? What field? What responsibilities do you want? All that background would help to give context for your original post/query.

My original post where I first mentioned abandoning reason for madness was a discourse brought about partly from remembering an event that happened several years ago that resulted in my fall into a mixed episode.

Later commented about my job search as it is a more recent event. But, yeah I am looking for a job. I'm currently unemployed. I have experience with admin duties and bookkeeping(on-the-job training and just figuring things out on my own -- I don't have certifications or anything like that). Responsibilities? I know I don't want to deal with talking with customers or clients or making presentations.

[UpDownAround]

IMO, perfect reasoning is rare. I think almost everyone has some minor flaws in reasoning but can still reach conclusions that allow them to function in society. Multiple minor flaws can magnify each other and major flaws can derail reasoning badly enough to make people reach conclusions that keep them from functioning in a way that others can deal with or conclusions that place themselves or others in danger. I think madness is fatally flawed reasoning, not the absence of reasoning. I also think most people don't abandon reasoning, reasoning fails them due to flaws they are unaware of (of, course, ignorance of the flaw is no excuse ). I think that was just clever dramatic dialog.

From what I've read about delusions, there isn't a deficit in the person's ability to reason per se, just that the delusional beliefs somehow bypass the reasoning process. So the person can reason other things through in a 'normal' way, just not the delusional beliefs. It's not a conscious choice to 'abandon reason for madness', but it does seem to get 'abandoned' nonetheless...

*Willow*

[JanusunaJ]

Originally Posted by WeepingWillow23

From what I've read about delusions, there isn't a deficit in the person's ability to reason per se, just that the delusional beliefs somehow bypass the reasoning process. So the person can reason other things through in a 'normal' way, just not the delusional beliefs. It's not a conscious choice to 'abandon reason for madness', but it does seem to get 'abandoned' nonetheless...

*Willow*

I recently read that a person in a state of delusion, I think it was delusion, is able to perceive when others are delusional, however, they aren't able to see that they are themselves in a state of delusion.

Originally Posted by QuixoticDeLaEternal

I recently read that a person in a state of delusion, I think it was delusion, is able to perceive when others are delusional, however, they aren't able to see that they are themselves in a state of delusion.

Yes, that's true. There was a famous experiment years ago where, in a psych ward, they put together 3 men who each believed they were Jesus to see if they would realise that they couldn't all be Jesus and that they were all delusional. But each man maintained that they were the real Jesus and that the others were imposters or crazy.

*Willow*

[bioChE]

Are you referring to psychosis when you say delusion? By definition when one is in a psychosis they have lost touch with reality. I don't believe you can have the self-awareness to know you're psychotic when you are.

[JanusunaJ]

Originally Posted by bioChE

Are you referring to psychosis when you say delusion? By definition when one is in a psychosis they have lost touch with reality. I don't believe you can have the self-awareness to know you're psychotic when you are.

Here's a link to the article I was referencing:
How Hard Is It To Recognize That You Are Experiencing A Delusion? | IFLScience

[UpDownAround]

When coming out of my most common delusion (that I can heal any sickness in my body with my mind), there is a period of cross over confusion and disappointment. First it's disappointment that I can no longer summon it, then confusion about whether I ever really could and finally realization that it was a fantasy. It's a really depressing delusion; every time I have it and them come out of it I have to realize and accept my mortality again. It doesn't happen all that often the last few years. Probably only 3 times in the last 5 years.

Originally Posted by bioChE

Are you referring to psychosis when you say delusion? By definition when one is in a psychosis they have lost touch with reality. I don't believe you can have the self-awareness to know you're psychotic when you are.

I agree. You have to believe it 100% for it to be a delusion. If you have even a sliver of doubt that your thoughts might be 'off', then it's considered an overvalued idea.

BUT I've seen on PC that people say they are 'psychotic' for having hallucinations that they're aware are hallucinations, and overvalued ideas, or that their pdoc called it 'psychosis'. So I think that there must be degrees of psychosis, or at least a spectrum of where each pdoc considers psychosis to begin. And I think if you've been through psychosis before, it can be easier to tell that something is 'off', so it can't be as black and white as that all of the time IRL.

*Willow*