Similarities between seemingly unrelated disorders

I've done a bit of research in the past about dissociative symptoms, migraines, bipolar disorder, seizure disorders and pseudo seizures, and even fibromyalgia. There are an uncanny number of associations/similarities between them in some peoples' experiences. Some (not all necessarily common to all) are as follows:

• Many are sometimes treated with anticonvulsants (i.e. Depakote, Tegretol, Lamictal, Neurontin aka gabapentin, etc.)
• Many sometimes include "aura-like" beginnings before "episodes" begin
• The "Kindling Effect" is relevant to many of these conditions
• "Out of body experiences" may be had as part of many of these
• Various types of hallucinations may be experienced as part of many of these (i.e. visual, auditory, space-time distortions, deja vu, oflactory, musical, etc.)
• Types of amnesia (like en block or fragmentary blackouts) or memory issues, as part of many, for some
• Many have similar stressors/triggers (i.e. light, types of stress, hormonal changes, others)
• Anxiety and/or depression may occur as part of, or as a result of many of the mentioned
• Sleep disturbances (insomnia, hypersomnia) may play a role in many of these
• In some cases, stuttering? Or rapid repetition of words/phrases.
• In some of these cases, people with one (or more) of the above-mentioned conditions, also frequently have a higher percent chance of having another, than the general public (for example, people with bipolar disorder have a higher incidence of migraines)

The brain is a very interesting organ!

I created this list a while ago. I didn't save a list of resources. If anyone wants some, let me know or feel free to google associations on your own. Obviously experiences may vary, and some bulleted items may only pertain to a couple or a few disorders, but most could pertain to all.

As a final note, once I went to a psychiatrist that also specialized in neurology. She told me that some in the fields even theorize that bipolar episodes may actually be types of seizures. Seizures do indeed present in various ways. I do not know if that theory could be correct. I don't mean to be promoting the idea.

Very interesting! I have chronic migraines and a family member has epilepsy. We've often compared the similarities between the two. I've never thought to connect it to bipolar, though.

Hi BirdDancer!

Thanks so much for this! We must be on the same page tonight, as I had just written something similar on the thread re: Musical Hallucinations(?)

Your post is much more cohesive and informational. You are very talented in this way!

Thanks again!!!

A well-known neurologist, Oliver Sacks, had written quite a bit about this. He wrote a lot on interesting neurological topics. I have read his book, Migraine, and it touches upon these points quite well. He even talks of a condition he calls "migralepsy."

He/his clinical/research observations, theories and his writings are outstanding!
Just my own very humble opinion.

I have BP. I have had all types of migraine activity, including, but not limited to, migraine equivalents, "migralepsy," etc., etc.

I have also been repeatedly evaluated for Temporal Lobe Epilepsy because I often have the symptoms and the experiences associated with TLE. For quite awhile, I had been put on Tegretol for both migraine and for TLE symptoms.

I firmly believe some interesting correlations between these types of conditions likely exist!!!

I was sent to the Mao clinic a number of times when I was nine. They diganoised me with migraines and were suspicious of a seizure disorder and put me on anti seizure meds. After one of my attempts I developed nocturnal tonic-conic seizures. Interesting enough both they and the migraines went away after menopause. Hmm now that I think on it the Bipoar is much more stable too.

Fascinating!

I think there is a hormonal component to all of the conditions. It just makes sense. How could there not be?

So nice to have you commenting, Nammu!

I used to have terrible migraines. After I was dx'd with BP, I was put on Lamictal (an anti-convulsant). After awhile, I realized I hadn't had any migraines. I do believe there are connections between a number of these things.

Wow! We really were! Your post about Saks was up within only 20 mins of this. We are both curious minds.

Thanks for mentioning the Oliver Saks book on migraines. I wasn't aware of that. I do own and have read his book "Hallucinations". It's interesting. It actually focuses more on non-psychotic hallucinations, than psychotic, for anyone interested.

My interest in these similarities stems from having a bipolar disorder diagnosis, but also having received dxs of migraines, simple partial seizures (temporal lobe epilepsy), migraines (more typical and silent types), and periods of depersonalization/derealization. As I wrote in Wild Coyote's thread, I also had a very disturbing period of musical hallucinations, whose source has been debated. I have never had fibromyalgia, but have met a large number of people with both that and bipolar disorder.

I think hypnopompic and hypnogogic hallucinations often coincide with BP and SzA. I never used to get them until I started getting hallucinations during the day, and I think you treat them with an antidepressant, just like you *might* treat BP with an antidepressant (assuming you can tolerate antidepressants). I read the antidepressant thing sometime a while back, so I don't have a source for this.

I know I tend to dissociate whenever I get hallucinations, and my therapist told me that it's not uncommon for people to dissociate when hallucinating (or even delusional). I'm guessing that's why dissociation is often listed as an unofficial symptom of Sz, SzA, and BP with psychotic features. It seems to be a "side effect" of the psychosis.

I just get really confused and I feel out of place whenever I hallucinate. I think that's why I feel detached from the world. Not sure if it's a subconscious coping mechanism or not, though.

That's very interesting what you shared, bluebicyle! I will definitely do some reading about this. Thanks!

Yeah, there is interesting stuff about linkages between psychotic/mood disorders and sleep hallucinations. I think sometimes sleep hallucinations are associated with the beginnings/onset of Sz, SzA, and other psychotic disorders. At least, some papers seem to suggest this.

At the same time, I think that some meds tend to give vivid dreams or nightmares, so I do wonder if perhaps the sleep-related hallucinations are also partly due to meds since meds affect sleep in so many different ways. Not sure, though. That's just a possibility that I randomly thought of.

Hey BirdDancer. Interesting list. I experienced almost all of the items above. I was treated with Depakote before they landed on Risperdal. I was seeing auras and had strange experiences with color during my episode. I had out of body experiences where I was watching myself like one does in a dream. I blacked out for large periods of time. I was quite anxious and agitated. I was unable to sleep. I repeated phrases over and over in an almost hypnotic way. I also yelled phrases and whispered intermittently. It was like my brain was stuck on repeat and my husband would have to disrupt me for it to stop. This all happened right before my cycle began one month, so my body was in a hormonal shift.

The same exact things happened to my mother when she had her episode except she was in the beginning of menopause.

I believe my brain was experiencing seizures during my episode. I had a feeling of pressure at the nape of my neck for days before my episode. I felt the pressure give way and I went completely insane. My brain felt like it was on fire. My mother described the same feeling. Her doctor told me that brain scans of people experiencing mania like we suffered look like thos who have epilepsy.

I had a number of triggers including PTSD. I know a number of people here suffer from that specifically, so I also think it is related to the cause of symptoms like these. Its basically like the brain has electrical overload and then finally shorts out. I definitely feel like it takes a toll. I'm not quite as sharp as I was before all of this happened. Perhaps the meds are to blame, but I feel like my brain was damaged as well.

I wanted to also add that I think it is significant that I stopped thinking while this was happening. It was like I was a puppet and someone else was pulling the strings. I just went from one thing to the next without any thought about what I was doing or why. Some might call that impulsive, but it was more than that. My brain would fire a signal and my body responded instantly. The only time I thought about any of it was when I was ''watching myself' while I was dissociated. I kept thinking how strange the things my body was doing were. There was no ability to rationalize or stop any of it even though my husband was pleading with me to stop. My brain decided and then the action was immediately carried out. I was disrupted a few times but then I just immediately went to the next action. It is hard to describe, so I'm not sure if I am doing that aspect justice.

Hi bluebicyle. Thanks for sharing about that! I'll admit that I had never heard the term "sleep hallucinations". Of course I know what vivid dreams are like. What exactly are the differences between "sleep hallucinations" and vivid dreams while sleeping? What makes them hallucinations vs. dreams?

fern46, thanks so much for expanding on the list in my first post. It is very helpful to learn about such experiences that are not always shared or highlighted. Many we can obviously relate to and some seem to show that experiences are not precisely the same.

Just a quick note:

Over the years I have read a lot on the "neurology" of "religiosity" and of "spiritual experiences." Some philosophers and some theologists often mention, or offer, their observations and their theories regarding a connection between these types of neurological "conditions" and spiritual/religious experiences.

There is definitely a lot written on TLE and associated proclivities for these types of experiences.

Many of us have had direct experiences as our moods change with Bipolar illness, as well.

Food for thought.

Love to All~

I hope I did not "kill" the thread with my last post!

Thank you SO MUCH for posting this, @BirdDancer! It's REALLY helpful!

@Wild Coyote, thank you for following up on your post two posts above! I really want to do some research on what you wrote. I don't think your observation really "killed" the thread as much as perplexed me about an expansion item to the growing list. This is sort of a "What?!?!?!" item that many of us (at least I) would never have connected with other disorders. I knew religiosity is common in bipolar episodes, especially manias, but not in TLE or possibly other neurological conditions. Now I am ultra curious! I'm sorry if I seemed frozen in response, initially. Though I do know a little bit about some neurological issues, I am not that knowledgeable. I know you have been exploring such topics for a long time.

Thank you, @MickeyCheeky! I have been greatly enjoying the contributions made here. Others have taught me many things and sparked my curiosity. When I post these types of topics, I know I will learn from others.

Yes, I know there is LOTS of written content below. They are bits from articles supporting the highly interesting contribution Wild Coyote made linking religiosity and some Temporal Lobe Epilepsy (TLE) experiences. Most of us know how common it is to develop hyperreligiosity in bipolar episodes (esp. mania). This can be added to the original list, for sure. Another interesting symptom is hypergraphia, something common in TLE and bipolar mania. I read that in the past, but forgot about it.

“Epileptic seizures may increase, alter, or decrease religious experience especially in a small group of patients with temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE). Literature surveys have revealed that between .4% and 3.1% of partial epilepsy patients had ictal religious experiences; higher frequencies are found in systematic questionnaires versus spontaneous patient reports. Religious premonitory symptoms or auras were reported by 3.9% of epilepsy patients…” From Spirituality and religion in epilepsy. - PubMed - NCBI

“A 40-year-old man with history of temporal lobe epilepsy presented to the emergency department with hyperreligiosity after medication noncompliance. After medications were resumed, he returned to baseline. Many famous prophets are believed to have suffered epilepsy. Waxman and Geschwind described a group of traits in patients with temporal lobe epilepsy consisting of hyperreligiosity, hypergraphia, altered sexual behavior, aggressiveness, preoccupation with details, and circumstantiality. The incidence of religious experiences ranges from 0.3 to 3.1 percent in patients with epilepsy.” From Isolated Hyperreligiosity in a Patient with Temporal Lobe Epilepsy

“Mystics throughout history have claimed to experience visions and trance-like states they say come directly from God. There's now speculation that these visions may have been hallucinations brought on by epilepsy…Mystics throughout history have claimed to experience visions and trance-like states they say come directly from God. There's now speculation that these visions may have been hallucinations brought on by epilepsy.” From Finding God in a seizure: the link between temporal lobe epilepsy and mysticism - Encounter - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

A huge yes to both of these for me. At one point I thought I was an angel. I was obsessed with the light and the dark. I also wrote a ton. Same for my mother. She believed she was talking with God and she wrote like crazy.

I was also aggressive, preoccupied with details and exhibited circumstantial speech. Same for my mother.

I also had a ton of pressure in my brain stem area. The temporal lobe sits right on top of the brain stem.

BirdDancer and WC, thank you so much for this. It is the first explanation that actually fits what I experienced. I want to talk to my psychiatrist and therapist about it.

I'm glad you also mentioned circumstantial speech, fern. It's highly interesting how speech can be affected by various disorders. I know that bipolar disorder can sometimes (in severe episodes) share symptoms most often associated with schizophrenia. Catatonia, perseveration, and several others. Heck, I just googled the latter and that came up as a possible symptom of TLE. And likely others would, too.

Many people only think of epilepsy as including convulsions, but as we know, many with epilepsy don't have them. My mother did. Actually, I know very little about my mother's epilepsy experience other than her petit mal and grand mal seizures, that I saw and heard. She was quite tight lipped about it. But I've since learned more because of my own simple partial seizure diagnosis (in TLE realm), and hearing about the absence type, too. There are many types, aren't there?

I wish I knew more about the brain. All I know is what I read in my Intro to Psych class and through casual online research.

I don't know a lot about it either. I am doing my best to learn as I go.

I'm glad you mentioned schizophrenia. My husband was convinced that is what I had. My paranoia, delusions and hallucinations were all severe. Same for my mother. My husband was a little thrown when they diagnosed me as bipolar. I was manic, but it was more than that.

I'm sorry about your mother. That must have been very scary for her.

I wonder how TLE would be diagnosed. A neurologist?

I'm sorry you've had such a stressful road to reaching your diagnosis, fern. In answer to your question, I was sent to a neurologist and it was a neurologist that diagnosed me with simple partial seizures. I had had an EEG a couple years before.I was only diagnosed after a sleep deprivation EEG. The others had normal results. Isn't it interesting that the sleep deprivation one showed the abnormality?

I saw two neurologists and wasn't happy with either. I ended up consulting with an epileptologist who was a particular specialist in EEGs. I had a long interview with him and he talked at length with my psychiatrist. He told me that my simple partial seizure diagnosis was not definitive, even with the sleep deprivation EEG results. Actually, the neurologist I saw often said some "weird" symptoms seemed more psych-based than seizure-based. My psychiatrist disagreed. The epileptologist wanted me to have a 2 to 6 day in-hospital EEG, but my husband didn't want me to, so I didn't do it. That angered my psychiatrist. My reasons for not were a) the costs, and b) he wanted to temporarily take me off my very high dose of Tegretol XR. The latter was frightening because hubby and I feared my bipolar would go berserk again. Plus, Tegretol stopped musical hallucinations I had experienced. Musical hallucinations were discussed on this forum this week, but I can't emphasize enough how disturbing they became for me.

I had a number of weird symptoms along with more typical bipolar symptoms. That's what inspired all of the neurologists, and even a PET scan. I had an IOP psychiatrist who shockingly told me "I have never in my whole career seen anything like that before!" He was likely referring to a severe violent outburst I had that ended with me speaking literal gibberish for several minutes. It was way beyond rapid speech. It was incomprehensible. I was conscious and remember it all. There were other weird symptoms. I don't know. Severe manic symptoms? Odd psychosis presentation? Other?

Note: I had very typical bipolar type 1 episodes throughout my life, since age 14. The only period when I had these "weird" symptoms was between ages 35 and maybe 40. My very worst bipolar episodes were between ages 33 and 41/42. I am now 48.