I considered posting this in the check-in thread, but...

I got home from my psychiatrist appointment feeling anxious and frustrated. I adore him, and know he means well, but occasionally he says things that make my life seem more complicated, or burst my bubble. He's also known to be a wet blanket, sometimes.

Some here may recall my mentioning that my husband wants to retire in Europe. This idea has been discussed for a few years now. The first time I mentioned it to my psychiatrist (years back), his reaction was a firm and loud "DON'T DO IT!" He also gave a couple reasons, but then dropped the subject. The next time I saw my, then, therapist, I asked her if she thought it was appropriate for pdoc to even say such a thing. She didn't see any problems with it, but acknowledged that such a move could be destabilizing. I then dropped the subject.

The idea of moving to Europe has not disappeared. I did eventually veto hubby's interest in Portugal. [No offense to Portugal. It's complex.] Instead, we compromised by agreeing to France. Hubby and I have had many discussions, and it has looked like a reasonable option. Hubby did some research.

In the recent year, I have discussed with my psychiatrist, past and future French studies. His comments were few. We also discussed healthcare in France. He had mostly negative things to say. I brushed them off.

Today I emphasized the seriousness of the potential move. My psychiatrist then presented a long argument against the idea. Both of us are married to Europeans, and his arguments included the claim of firsthand feedback from "close friends" who lived in the exact French region of interest. He also said that he personally spoke with a French psychiatrist, at length, and found that doctor's qualifications to be comparatively inferior to many American psychiatrists'. [Pdoc is a bit of a snob and likely generalizing, unfairly.] Then, out of the blue, he started recommending that I rather consider a country like Ireland, or better yet, one of the Scandinavian countries.

OK, now. Basically, my psychiatrist did the same thing today that he did a few years back. I feel like pulling my hair out.

In contrast to my psychiatrist (of over 12 years), my current and past therapists never really expressed such outspoken opinions about the European move idea. Even if they did, their feedback would never have been as powerful in my ears as my psychiatrist's.

I'm scared to death of such a move, but know we can't stay where we are for much longer. I feel like I'm being pulled one way by hubby and another by my psychiatrist. They are the most influential people in my life, and set in their ways. My husband sees destination France through rose-colored glasses. My psychiatrist the polar opposite. I can only hope that something really major happens that removes the necessity of such a relocation. I feel my husband and I are vulnerable.

Perhaps this is just a venting. Any thoughts on any of this are welcome. Keep in mind that moving elsewhere in the US may not be a reasonable option for us. It's likely stay where we are or go across the ocean. It's a complex situation. Pdoc even mentioned my husband's country of Czech Republic. Ummmm, there is a reason that hasn't been on the table, Pdoc!

I told my husband yesterday that I would live with him in the woods in a tent. I can fish, hunt squirrels, and pick berries and nuts.

[luvyrself]

This is such an important decision that it seems like it would be worth every penny to go and experience that region of France, interview potential pdocs, really soak in the ambience.

Originally Posted by luvyrself

This is such an important decision that it seems like it would be worth every penny to go and experience that region of France, interview potential pdocs, really soak in the ambience.

Thanks, luvyrself. We plan to. I hope to visit the areas of interest at least four times before deciding yes. Even my pdoc, today, suggested that we stay in any chosen area for several weeks before making any commitment.

I'm not sure why he's so hard on France. I can't take his statements as total fact without seeing for myself. I have heard plenty of positive things about living in regions of France from French citizens, themselves. I think his statement about the lower quality of psychiatrists in France may be unfounded. Heck, he once belittled one of my psychologists (without knowing her) by saying that he "never heard anything about her university's PhD program in psychology". She attended one of the most prestigious universities in the US. I told him that it can't be that bad!

I have been to various parts of France about five times. [# ?] My husband many more times.

My pdoc said he and his wife are traveling to Europe in late February through March. He implied that he's going to be in or near France. Maybe he'll come back with a modified viewpoint. I know that his wife is not French. She's originally from a German-speaking country. Not sure which.

[yellow_fleurs]

That is a big decision and I can see why you would be quite anxious about it! I would imagine that there could be some decent psychiatrists in France as well, although I have no personal knowledge on the topic. I would agree to just do the research and get a good sense of things yourself. If you can find a good treatment team, I'd think that's what's important, regardless of the overall comparison between the psychiatrists in the U.S. versus France. I can understand why you would hesitate to move way from your psychiatrist. I am already thinking about how stressful it will be if I move in the fall, just because my psychiatrist is clearly very knowledgeable and working with me to figure things out that aren't straightforward.

[Isurvive]

BirdDancer, that seems really strange to me that your doc is giving you their opinion like that. I could see him discussing the fact that a move like that could have destabilizing affects, or recommending that you try to get a feel for the type of care you would be able to have access to, but for a doctor or therapist to outright tell you what you should or shouldn't do seems very strange.
I think it would be more helpful for him to help you to get plans in place about what you could do to see if you will feel comfortable with the available doctors and therapists in the location you choose to live. And he should help you get some strategies in place to deal with the potential of having some unstable mood during the transition to the new country and culture. Things like having friends who you could call to get grounded if you feel overwhelmed by the change, or suggestions on finding support groups and developing new friendships that can give you a sence of normalcy.
His statement about the healthcare professionals in France is really odd. Considering that you just told him you are seriously considering moving there the should not be derailing your seeking healthcare in your new location no matter where you choose to live. His statements are only going to make it harder for you to transition emotionally. He can t speak to the training and skill of every doctor and therapist in the country after having met one! That's just crazy! I mean I met a cat that was really mean in at someone's house in a nearby town, but I don't assume every cat in that town is mean!
Sounds like he needs to learn boundaries of what he is and isn't supposed to do as a professional. But that's just my opinion.

I also feel a psychiatrist should be willing to discuss the pros and cons of any decision. I haven't seen a psychiatrist in years but when i was considering something momentous she calmly talked it over with me. I like how you and your husband have decided on France. That scares me a lot less than Eastern Europe. You speak some French and are willing to learn more. France seems like a pretty benign country. The American author David Sedaris lives there and seems to like it. You're intending to do test-runs to see if you really like it.

It all seems like a less intimidating plan than when you first mentioned the idea of moving. I'm still hesitant about the idea but just because of my own experience of moving to Vancouver which was dreadful. But it's not the same thing i must admit. The fact that you're going to visit the area several times before making a final decision is a super plan! Bon chance mon amie!

[bpcyclist]

I thought everyone loved Vancouver, whatever. So sorry that was hard on you.

That pdoc reaction (reactions, really) sound sorta funny to me, BD. Not funny, haha, funny, kind of weird. It makes me wonder if he had some specific negative experience in France or with a French practitioner at some point and is somehow holding onto some of that still, then, transferring it onto you in order to express it. Just a thought. Also kind of wondering about your pdoc's age. Perhaps holding onto some sentimental, nostalgic feelings about the "way medicine used to be" in the US, as some older docs unaccustomed to ever having their actions questioned are wont to do. My dad retired because of these feelings. Way before he needed to. He told me: "One day, I woke up and went to the clinic angry and came home angry. That was it for me. Enough."

I worked in Paris hospitals a number of times, mostly in operating rooms, and always found the docs and nurses professional and bright. It is a very different healthcare system, obviously, as are all in Western Europe.

I think France is great. I'd live there in a hearbeat. I say, go for it. And have a croissant or five for me.

[fern46]

I agree with bpcyclist. Something feels funny here. It sounds like your pdoc is projecting onto your potential future quite a bit.

Rationally speaking, the notion that you will dislike a town or city or region simply because his close friends did is a stretch. There are happy people and miserable people everywhere you go. It is truly about state of mind and the company you keep. I would think a pdoc would understand that better than most people.

Healthcare concerns are perhaps a bit more his lane, but the argument still has some holes in it. Healthcare is a product of the systems as well as the practitioners. The system in America is quite broken in many places and some practitioners are criminal to say the least. Conversely, there are components of the system that are beneficial and some practitioners should qualify for sainthood. A French pdoc sending a patient to America could air out quite an extensive laundry list regarding the mental healthcare system here.

The issues created due to the rules of a system and the users of is not unique to healthcare. This is the state of any large system in a major county. They have holes and strong points. Practitioners and users can make them shine or exploit them. You can choose to focus your attention where you wish.

Personally, I wish he had taken more of an educational approach. It is one thing to offer someone information to ensure they are educated and it is another to fearmonger. I feel his approach with you boarders on the latter.

Mostly I wish his focus was on you and your state of mind while making these decisions. He should potentially be working to ensure you have spent time considering the options while in a balanced state. He should be working to ensure you have a medical care plan during and after your transition. He should be concerned with whether or not you'll have the emotional support you need. It appears to me those components aren't a worry in your case. You've mentioned this move here several yimes while of sound mind and a state of balance. You and your husband are very intelligent people capable of weighing the pros and cons of such a complex endeavor.

I know you respect your pdoc a great deal and he has offered you tremendous value in your journey over the years. I'm not trying to bash him, but I do feel several things were amiss with his counsel. It feels emotional and rationally has some areas of concern. I imagine this is related to how much he genuinely cares for you. I wouldn't hold it against him, but I also wouldn't let his negativity hold you back or create unnecessary fear or stress. Worst case scenario you go and you hate it. The thing about moving is it isn't a one way ticket...

I wish you had been given more positive support. I'll offer that. I hope that no matter where you land it offers the joy and stimulation you crave while also fostering the balance and stability you need. I hope there are kind souls there and potential lifelong friends. I hope you feel cared for healthwise and in other ways by the community. I hope you feel you can foster a sense of purpose there. I hope it adds value to your marriage and you and hubby go on to enjoy many more wonderful years together.

Originally Posted by whatever2013

I also feel a psychiatrist should be willing to discuss the pros and cons of any decision. I haven't seen a psychiatrist in years but when i was considering something momentous she calmly talked it over with me. I like how you and your husband have decided on France. That scares me a lot less than Eastern Europe. You speak some French and are willing to learn more. France seems like a pretty benign country. The American author David Sedaris lives there and seems to like it. You're intending to do test-runs to see if you really like it.

It all seems like a less intimidating plan than when you first mentioned the idea of moving. I'm still hesitant about the idea but just because of my own experience of moving to Vancouver which was dreadful. But it's not the same thing i must admit. The fact that you're going to visit the area several times before making a final decision is a super plan! Bon chance mon amie!

Merci, whatever!

Thank you also for mentioning David Sedaris. I just watched a very short "Masterclass" by him on YouTube. It was helpful since I've recently embarked on a writing project.

I think it is important that I get a balanced view of what I might face ahead of me. It is, indeed, up to me to discover the realities of such a move. Perhaps I'll find someone with feedback that falls in the middle. Your response was along those lines.

I once moved from New Jersey to California (Berkeley). I lived in Berkely for two years. One might think that should have been easy, but it wasn't. So, I see how your move to Vancouver would have been hard. Maybe moving further east will be easier for me. À déterminer ultérieurement

Originally Posted by bpcyclist

I thought everyone loved Vancouver, whatever. So sorry that was hard on you.

That pdoc reaction (reactions, really) sound sorta funny to me, BD. Not funny, haha, funny, kind of weird. It makes me wonder if he had some specific negative experience in France or with a French practitioner at some point and is somehow holding onto some of that still, then, transferring it onto you in order to express it. Just a thought. Also kind of wondering about your pdoc's age. Perhaps holding onto some sentimental, nostalgic feelings about the "way medicine used to be" in the US, as some older docs unaccustomed to ever having their actions questioned are wont to do. My dad retired because of these feelings. Way before he needed to. He told me: "One day, I woke up and went to the clinic angry and came home angry. That was it for me. Enough."

I worked in Paris hospitals a number of times, mostly in operating rooms, and always found the docs and nurses professional and bright. It is a very different healthcare system, obviously, as are all in Western Europe.

I think France is great. I'd live there in a hearbeat. I say, go for it. And have a croissant or five for me.

My pdoc is an older gentleman. He's likely 73 or 74 years old. He is definitely old-fashioned. As for him having negative experiences in France, I have no idea. I don't believe he's ever lived in France, but I can't say that for sure. His wife is originally from some German-speaking country. Perhaps she has strong opinions about the French? He told me that he'll be in France next month. Perhaps he'll come back with a more generous view.

I think France is great, too. Cool that you had the chance to practice there! I never had any bad experiences there, and neither has my husband. As for European healthcare systems, I think they are just fine. My Czech husband says that the doctors in CZ are mostly excellent. Obviously, there are great and lousy doctors and hospitals everywhere, including in the US. Not everyone in the US goes to Johns Hopkins or Mayo Clinic for treatment.

My husband's Czech friend Milan is an orthopedic surgeon in Prague. He once practiced briefly in the Washington DC area. His feedback was that much of the equipment was superior, but that the knowledge and experience of the doctors was not. We know a lot of doctors in Europe. My husband's eldest sister was a GP and his brother a radiologist, both in Munich. A childhood friend was a pediatrician. My husband's father was a neurologist AND psychiatrist. They all knew what they were doing.

Originally Posted by fern46

I agree with bpcyclist. Something feels funny here. It sounds like your pdoc is projecting onto your potential future quite a bit.

Rationally speaking, the notion that you will dislike a town or city or region simply because his close friends did is a stretch. There are happy people and miserable people everywhere you go. It is truly about state of mind and the company you keep. I would think a pdoc would understand that better than most people.

Healthcare concerns are perhaps a bit more his lane, but the argument still has some holes in it. Healthcare is a product of the systems as well as the practitioners. The system in America is quite broken in many places and some practitioners are criminal to say the least. Conversely, there are components of the system that are beneficial and some practitioners should qualify for sainthood. A French pdoc sending a patient to America could air out quite an extensive laundry list regarding the mental healthcare system here.

The issues created due to the rules of a system and the users of is not unique to healthcare. This is the state of any large system in a major county. They have holes and strong points. Practitioners and users can make them shine or exploit them. You can choose to focus your attention where you wish.

Personally, I wish he had taken more of an educational approach. It is one thing to offer someone information to ensure they are educated and it is another to fearmonger. I feel his approach with you boarders on the latter.

Mostly I wish his focus was on you and your state of mind while making these decisions. He should potentially be working to ensure you have spent time considering the options while in a balanced state. He should be working to ensure you have a medical care plan during and after your transition. He should be concerned with whether or not you'll have the emotional support you need. It appears to me those components aren't a worry in your case. You've mentioned this move here several yimes while of sound mind and a state of balance. You and your husband are very intelligent people capable of weighing the pros and cons of such a complex endeavor.

I know you respect your pdoc a great deal and he has offered you tremendous value in your journey over the years. I'm not trying to bash him, but I do feel several things were amiss with his counsel. It feels emotional and rationally has some areas of concern. I imagine this is related to how much he genuinely cares for you. I wouldn't hold it against him, but I also wouldn't let his negativity hold you back or create unnecessary fear or stress. Worst case scenario you go and you hate it. The thing about moving is it isn't a one way ticket...

I wish you had been given more positive support. I'll offer that. I hope that no matter where you land it offers the joy and stimulation you crave while also fostering the balance and stability you need. I hope there are kind souls there and potential lifelong friends. I hope you feel cared for healthwise and in other ways by the community. I hope you feel you can foster a sense of purpose there. I hope it adds value to your marriage and you and hubby go on to enjoy many more wonderful years together.

Thank you, fern

I think that I will avoid discussing this topic with my psychiatrist for a while. He is a caring and highly competent doctor, but he's not meant to be my therapist. I have a psychologist that I see weekly for that. But my pdoc is one of my greatest supports. He's like a father figure to me. He is far more supportive than my real father. If/when we make the move, I will miss my psychiatrist more than my father. I actually see him more often than I see my father. I want to see him more than my father.

My husband believes that my psychiatrist doesn't wish to see me leave. Perhaps that plays into this a little bit. After knowing a person so well for over 13 years (especially him me), it's tough. Somewhere here I wrote that I'm trying to "lower my dose of him". I need to be weaned off, gradually.

[fern46]

Originally Posted by BirdDancer

Thank you, fern

I think that I will avoid discussing this topic with my psychiatrist for a while. He is a caring and highly competent doctor, but he's not meant to be my therapist. I have a psychologist that I see weekly for that. But my pdoc is one of my greatest supports. He's like a father figure to me. He is far more supportive than my real father. If/when we make the move, I will miss my psychiatrist more than my father. I actually see him more often than I see my father. I want to see him more than my father.

My husband believes that my psychiatrist doesn't wish to see me leave. Perhaps that plays into this a little bit. After knowing a person so well for over 13 years (especially him me), it's tough. Somewhere here I wrote that I'm trying to "lower my dose of him". I need to be weaned off, gradually.

I think your husband is spot on. Maybe the two of you can go on to be friends after you move. I know you both care for each other.

[*Beth*]

Originally Posted by BirdDancer

I considered posting this in the check-in thread, but...

I got home from my psychiatrist appointment feeling anxious and frustrated. I adore him, and know he means well, but occasionally he says things that make my life seem more complicated, or burst my bubble. He's also known to be a wet blanket, sometimes.

Some here may recall my mentioning that my husband wants to retire in Europe. This idea has been discussed for a few years now. The first time I mentioned it to my psychiatrist (years back), his reaction was a firm and loud "DON'T DO IT!" He also gave a couple reasons, but then dropped the subject. The next time I saw my, then, therapist, I asked her if she thought it was appropriate for pdoc to even say such a thing. She didn't see any problems with it, but acknowledged that such a move could be destabilizing. I then dropped the subject.

I am okay with his opinion mentioned lightly...or a simple, "Really? That sounds interesting...I visited 'X' once and I'm very fond of that region."

Why the intense reaction, though? Unnecessary, it seems.

The idea of moving to Europe has not disappeared. I did eventually veto hubby's interest in Portugal. [No offense to Portugal. It's complex.] Instead, we compromised by agreeing to France. Hubby and I have had many discussions, and it has looked like a reasonable option. Hubby did some research.

Wonderful! My son attended university and worked in Paris; he absolutely loves France and visits whenever he can. I've visited only Paris, but had a wonderful time there (and I don't do "fancy stuff"...I stayed in hostels).

In the recent year, I have discussed with my psychiatrist, past and future French studies. His comments were few. We also discussed healthcare in France. He had mostly negative things to say. I brushed them off.

I can say that from my direct experience, the healthcare in France is excellent.

Today I emphasized the seriousness of the potential move. My psychiatrist then presented a long argument against the idea. Both of us are married to Europeans, and his arguments included the claim of firsthand feedback from "close friends" who lived in the exact French region of interest. He also said that he personally spoke with a French psychiatrist, at length, and found that doctor's qualifications to be comparatively inferior to many American psychiatrists'. [Pdoc is a bit of a snob and likely generalizing, unfairly.] Then, out of the blue, he started recommending that I rather consider a country like Ireland, or better yet, one of the Scandinavian countries.

Ireland is delightful and surprisingly diverse. I haven't been to the Scandinavian countries myself, but have heard only positives. But....every country has it's (to use a medication metaphor) benefits and side effects.

But your husband is European? Seems he'd know more about Europe than the pdoc knows.

OK, now. Basically, my psychiatrist did the same thing today that he did a few years back. I feel like pulling my hair out.

In contrast to my psychiatrist (of over 12 years), my current and past therapists never really expressed such outspoken opinions about the European move idea. Even if they did, their feedback would never have been as powerful in my ears as my psychiatrist's.

I'm scared to death of such a move, but know we can't stay where we are for much longer. I feel like I'm being pulled one way by hubby and another by my psychiatrist. They are the most influential people in my life, and set in their ways. My husband sees destination France through rose-colored glasses. My psychiatrist the polar opposite. I can only hope that something really major happens that removes the necessity of such a relocation. I feel my husband and I are vulnerable.

Perhaps this is just a venting. Any thoughts on any of this are welcome. Keep in mind that moving elsewhere in the US may not be a reasonable option for us. It's likely stay where we are or go across the ocean. It's a complex situation. Pdoc even mentioned my husband's country of Czech Republic. Ummmm, there is a reason that hasn't been on the table, Pdoc!

I told my husband yesterday that I would live with him in the woods in a tent. I can fish, hunt squirrels, and pick berries and nuts.

I'm excited for you! I guess I don't have much more to say than I support your plans. And I guess...I'm not quite understanding why your pdoc has so much to say about where you and your husband choose to live.

[*Beth*]

I agree with your husband, btw. It does sound like your pdoc is having a tough time with the thought of you moving.

Either that or perhaps his first true love was French and she dumped him

Originally Posted by BethRags

I agree with your husband, btw. It does sound like your pdoc is having a tough time with the thought of you moving.

Either that or perhaps his first true love was French and she dumped him

@BethRags, thanks for sharing about your son's and your lovely experiences in France. It's nice to read about others' appreciation for French culture and towns. I was a bit shocked why my pdoc was so negative. LOL! Maybe you're right about pdoc being scorned by a French woman 😁. Or another theory is that pdoc's German/Austrian wife has some bias against France. I know Europeans can be like that.

Your point about my Czech husband likely knowing a little more than my pdoc about European life is surely right. Thanks for making that point. Nevertheless, I know we do need to do more research.

I loved staying in hostels, too. I kind of feel that experience feels even more like being among the locals than staying at hotels. This time we will check out staying in Airbnbs.

[*Beth*]

Birdie, his wife may well have a bad opinion about the French. Whatever the case, I tend to believe that while your pdoc believes he's being protective - I'm glad you're taking his opinion with a few grains of salt.

[Wild Coyote]

HI BirdDancer!

I am weighing in late; yet, wanted to lend some support.

I'd seen my last pdoc for 20 years. He is a very nice guy, in every way. He had retired approx. 18 months ago. We had decided we wanted to be friends. We are friends, in the sense that we stay in touch via email, sometimes via telephone or text. We don't overdo it. He and his wife have a local band. They do a lot of fundraisers. I see them perform when I attend the event, etc.

If he had voiced such a strong opinion on where I might live in the future, I would feel a bit confused. I would feel confused because he is very well traveled and likely knows and I know he would do his best to protect me. In this case, it is not very likely he would voice any strong opinion.

Mostly, I'd wanted to tell you that I, too, would feel a bit confused if my pdoc had taken such a strong stance.

I hope you and your husband will find a place where you both are happy and will thrive!