[Starvin4Perfection]

Ok so I have BPD and I see my imago therapist twice a month and talk about whatever struggles I'm having in my life, whether it's work, family, relationship... whatever. So I'm talking to her last week and explaining what's been going on with my bf and I. We had a couple really rough months where we were constantly bickering over the dumbest stuff. We went on vacation about 3 weeks ago and the bickering seemed to completely stop... we finally got to spend some time together! Being that he's a pilot, we don't get to see each other too often; about 2 - 3 days a week during the week... sucks, but it is what it is; we get by. So anyway, we had gotten through a couple weeks with no arguments... nothing; it's like we got back to normal!!! So two days before I saw her, the bf and I got into an argument... I got pissed, and after calming down told him how I felt and got a sincere apology. So I'm telling my therapist this story and she mentioned that he has some narcissistic personality disorder traits... I'm thinking no, he doesn't really. So she names a few of the traits and I agreed with some... not others. So anyway, she tells me to read this book called The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists (it's in the mail) and tells me that Borderlines and Narcissists are drawn to each other??? I guess because we grew up with the same childhood wounds... but handled them differently. Has anyone heard of this??? I found a great article on it actually, happy reading.

http://gettinbetter.com/dance.html

[ECHOES]

A relationship with a BPD person could cause the other to "acquire a serious disease"? Huh? How would that work, I wonder.

I don't see how this kind of labelling and viewing things through a lens colored with the labelling is helpful. But that's just me.

In my therapy, we don't discuss the diagnosis or the traits. My therapist said right away, when I approached the subject of Borderline diagnosis that she readily agreed with, that she didn't want me to get hung up on the diagnosis. We are each complex human beings and defining who we are only within the definition of BPD is limiting.
We go deeper than that, beyond the diagnosis, to the individual and the thoughts and responses that form and reinforce perceptions and misperceptions.

[Trippin2.0]

I think my bf has s0me NPD traits,of cors i'm in n0 positi0n to dx him...

[unaluna]

Great article, but REALLY LONG!!! Should be required reading - should be a sticky?

I really liked this little part of it, as it can be related to our feelings for our T's:

"Both Borderlines and Narcissists associate Love with painful longing. This is the crux of all those come here/go away (push/pull) cycles with this couple, and a whole lotta country western songs! Love equals pain, and vice-versa.

When their intense craving for love is met, painful sensations they've come to interpret as loving feelings, evaporate. At this point, the Borderline feels bored or annoyed, and pushes away. With healthy/whole partners who need continuity of loving feelings, the Borderline feels emotional claustrophobia, which compels her to disrupt episodes of authentic intimacy between them. The Narcissist responds to his need for distance and autonomy, by selecting unavailable BPD lovers who won't trigger his engulfment fears."

[Perna]

I think of all mental illness categories, all borderlines are not created equal or alike! I did not care for most of the author's assumptions, based primarily on one therapist's practice, experiences and personal ideas, and didn't care for her "bio" either (was too narcissistic for me :-) http://gettinbetter.com/aboutshari.html

This article was a mortifying trigger for me,and subsequently I feel as if being borderline is a death sentence,for me and anything I touch.I have no clue how to be healthy,I feel a very deep self-loathing right now.I want to know how on earth to be healthy.

[unaluna]

Hey wolfie like they say at AA - take what you can use and leave the rest. I read the article with a BOWL of salt - do I have this tendency in any relationship? Is my transference in therapy heading this way? Oh, so this is why I feel this way! -- These were my reactions reading it, also, well, this is what I have to look out for, no wonder I'm not motivated to meet people... just learn from it, don't condemn yourself because of it! It ain't over till the fat lady sings. And good on you for WANTING to be healthy, that is 80 percent of the battle, ask anybody married to someone who won't admit they have a problem!

[skye1621]

I think I agree with that bc my ex bf is a narcissist and although we argued we still had a hard time being without each other. but also i was wondering if you could give me any advice bc for a little while now i have been told i have BPD but ive never been to the doctor bc afraid to find out. so is it worth finding out or should i just deal with everything myself?

[Forgive77]

Okay I read it.

Some of it is a little over the top I think. Some of it does sound like my husband and myself. I think it would have been easier if the author said," Borderlines have no sense of self, and narcissists can easily control them. When the borderline has had enough...she blows up....Thus making the Narcissist blow up...." That would have been a lot quicker.

The auther seems to have a good grip, but it is way to general. In fact I've read a book about narcissists, and from what I remember...they just don't know or hear or believe that they do anything wrong....so there's no point in mentioning it.

"Freeing youself from the Narcissist in your life" Linda Martinez-Lewu, PhD.

[Zabine]

I have suspected that my husband is a narcissist for a while now, that is very interesting.....

[Starvin4Perfection]

Sorry for being MIA everyone... wasn't ignoring, just haven't had a chance to get on the computer. Pardon me if I don't reply to each post specifically... but I'm gonna try to respond!!!

Originally Posted by ECHOES

A relationship with a BPD person could cause the other to "acquire a serious disease"? Huh? How would that work, I wonder.

I don't see how this kind of labelling and viewing things through a lens colored with the labelling is helpful. But that's just me.

In my therapy, we don't discuss the diagnosis or the traits. My therapist said right away, when I approached the subject of Borderline diagnosis that she readily agreed with, that she didn't want me to get hung up on the diagnosis. We are each complex human beings and defining who we are only within the definition of BPD is limiting.
We go deeper than that, beyond the diagnosis, to the individual and the thoughts and responses that form and reinforce perceptions and misperceptions.

I don't think the author was saying you acquire a diagnosable disorder; I think more so she's saying that you can make someone "crazy" and by that I mean act in a matter that they typically wouldn't... if that makes sense. Like you can make someone feel really insecure or extremely angry or that they would do things out of the ordinary... like my friend who slashed her ex's tires. My T doesn't like labeling either, but it is what it is... you either are or you aren't, ya know? You wouldn't be diagnosed if you didn't inhibit those traits as defined. Everyone gets sad or depressed sometimes... but it has to go on for a long period of time to be diagnosed.

Originally Posted by hankster

Great article, but REALLY LONG!!! Should be required reading - should be a sticky?

I really liked this little part of it, as it can be related to our feelings for our T's:

"Both Borderlines and Narcissists associate Love with painful longing. This is the crux of all those come here/go away (push/pull) cycles with this couple, and a whole lotta country western songs! Love equals pain, and vice-versa.

When their intense craving for love is met, painful sensations they've come to interpret as loving feelings, evaporate. At this point, the Borderline feels bored or annoyed, and pushes away. With healthy/whole partners who need continuity of loving feelings, the Borderline feels emotional claustrophobia, which compels her to disrupt episodes of authentic intimacy between them. The Narcissist responds to his need for distance and autonomy, by selecting unavailable BPD lovers who won't trigger his engulfment fears."

I'm glad you liked the article, and yes... it was very long!!! I think the push/pull is super accurate... in my case at least. I struggle with calmness sometimes because I had such a tumultuous and chaotic past; it's like somethings is wrong if everything is peaceful. My bf and I have a really bad tendency to do this. I am so happy and almost crave the deep conversations and when he expresses how much he loves me and that he wants to get married and have kids. He does also, but I can't tell it scares him to talk about sometimes because he equates it with the ability for me to hurt him. So we both want to feel loved and I want to feel the commitment, he doesn't want to express it because it could mean hurt or he could feel inadequate if he isn't a good enough dad or husband. Does that make sense?

Originally Posted by wolfsong

This article was a mortifying trigger for me,and subsequently I feel as if being borderline is a death sentence,for me and anything I touch.I have no clue how to be healthy,I feel a very deep self-loathing right now.I want to know how on earth to be healthy.

Aww... I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make you feel that way!!! BPD isn't a death sentence at all... it's a challenge, but you can overcome it! I don't know if you're in a relationship or not, but I have a few books I could recommend! Read "Get me Out of Here"... it's about a girl that overcomes BPD. If you're in a relationship read "Getting the Love you Want"... it's a book on Imago Therapy so you can understand what causes conflicts in relationships and how to overcome them. If you're single (or not) read "Receiving Love". Harville Hendrix is the absolute best author I've found that has helped me understand myself and make healthy relationships (and remember that no relationship is perfect). Also... I don't want you to be sad... feel free to PM me!!!

Originally Posted by skye1621

I think I agree with that bc my ex bf is a narcissist and although we argued we still had a hard time being without each other. but also i was wondering if you could give me any advice bc for a little while now i have been told i have BPD but ive never been to the doctor bc afraid to find out. so is it worth finding out or should i just deal with everything myself?

Feel free to PM me if you want to talk. As for the BPD... if you've never seen anyone to find out, do some research on it and see how applicable it seems to you or talk to someone that is (aka me). I was actually really happy with the diagnosis because I realized that I'm not the only one that feels the way I do, and it kind of explained the "why" of my thoughts and behaviors. It's a personal call for you, but I was happy when I found out... then I got the help so I could "fix" it.

Originally Posted by Forgive77

Okay I read it.

Some of it is a little over the top I think. Some of it does sound like my husband and myself. I think it would have been easier if the author said," Borderlines have no sense of self, and narcissists can easily control them. When the borderline has had enough...she blows up....Thus making the Narcissist blow up...." That would have been a lot quicker.

The auther seems to have a good grip, but it is way to general. In fact I've read a book about narcissists, and from what I remember...they just don't know or hear or believe that they do anything wrong....so there's no point in mentioning it.

"Freeing youself from the Narcissist in your life" Linda Martinez-Lewu, PhD.

I agree with you, the author was a little wordy. I think the mutual childhood wounds make sense that they would draw people together; but the thing with these two personalities is that they handled their wounds in a very opposite way. Hence the push/pull. For my bf and I (and maybe you and your husband) we definitely go back and forth on our behaviors towards each other, but there's no way either of us could go anywhere. I think a lot of it is that we know the "why" and once we stop and think about it... we realize what we're doing and stop... then all is good again. It's a roller-coaster sometimes, that's for sure... but that keeps life interesting, right?

Originally Posted by Zabine

I have suspected that my husband is a narcissist for a while now, that is very interesting.....

It's an interesting thought, huh? I thought a lot of it made sense.

You know.....I was going to walk through this article with quotes and honest replies to points made..But,upon looking at it with fresh eyes....it very much appears that the author is so completely assured that they are an authority on the subject,and has such obvious emotional baggage of their own,as to indicate an ear-splitting cry for their own need for guidance and therapy to break free from their own personal damage,that anything more than the response I intend to post,would be pointless..This article is absolutely prejudiced,and seething black with putrid generalizations.If it weren't for the fact that I am able to know myself better than to absorb these views,it could have catalyzed into something very destructive within my psyche.But,I can see at a second glance that this article is ,in fact,more of an example of the writers own personal issues,and very similar to racism,sexism,stereotyping,discrimination,anti-semitism....you get the point.We are all human beings.We all>any human ....with any dx,circumstance,baggage.......we all walk through our own personal fires....and have a growth process to pursue....and if we fall beneath a classification of,economic status,color,creed,inner conflict,accomplishment,or psychological diagnosis....whatever it may be....there are countless variations which can occur within an individual.Therefore,not many things fall into a tidy little box wrapped with a pretty pink bow! For these reasons....I will continue to realize my own path,healing,efforts,and beliefs which I feel ring of truth or application for me personally....and erase this damaging supposition from my mind.

*As well....I have to say I am grateful to have a friend point out this article which shows that this authors licence was cancelled and note that she is a "men's advocate" (anti-feminist)

http://bpdfamily.com/message_board/i...463#msg1160463

You may wish to click on the link there entitled:
Copy of canceled license and other references (caution, graphic).

That's all I care to give to this pernicious judgement of the people suffering with these two disorders.

~W~

[So It Goes]

I've been processing the content of this article for the last few days and have to question the impartiality of the author. I did a little Google searching and provided Wolfsong with the link above. The author's license was cancelled by the state of California for lack of completion of requirements. I realize that a license is not required to have wisdom and share knowledge about these issues, but digging deeper I have also noted that she is a "men's advocate" (or anti-feminist) and actively participates in websites dedicated to those causes.

In my opinion, this analysis can shed light on some of the more extreme aspects of this article, as it's obvious this author has issues with women. The first instance of this is the offhand comment, "Frankly, I have never met a lesbian who didn't have major issues with her mother". This is overgeneralizing and stereotypical on the surface but also points toward the tone of the piece throughout.

Scrieber states at the outset of the article that references to the narcissist and the borderline are interchangeable in gender, yet this interchangeability only becomes lip-service upon further reading in the article. There's an entire passage on the narcissist and erectile dysfunction, and the article goes on to talk about sexual issues in gender-biased terms. It is disingenuous, in my opinion, to state that either gender can be NPD/BPD and talk specifically about the narcissist as a man and refer to such disorders in exclusivity.

Where is the mention of the narcissist as a female and the sexual issues that can arise? It seems to me that Scrieber refers to the narcissist as almost a paragon of man (possessing all the traits of a stereotypical male), while simultaneously refering to gender stereotypes of females as exclusive traits of BPD. There is a blatant bias here that is disturbing at best and irresponsible at worst.

The narcissist is portrayed as being "no match" for the borderline, yet in reality it's a lot more complex. The interaction and negative effect of the narcissist on the borderline is only barely mentioned, instead focusing on the borderline's effect on the narcissist. Frankly, the borderline is portrayed as deserving of the narcissist's treatment, and the narcissist is portrayed as the victim of a manipulative force that he cannot comprehend.

Not only is this portrayal one-sided, it is also destructive through reinforcement of negative gender stereotypes (women as manipulators, women as less stable, women as a negative influence, women possessing exclusive sexual power over men).

I would urge anyone who reads or has read this article to replace "narcissist" with "man" and "borderline" with "woman" and re-read the article a second time. This does not apply perfectly to the piece, but it does offer a revealing insight into the bias contained within the article.

[Flooded]

I stop reading it. I see a bored wannabe therapist with a chip on her shoulder.

Whew, I was very very glad to come back to this thread this morning and see Wolfsong's and So it Goes' thoughtful comments on the article. When I read the article I came away appalled by the author's blatant prejudice and dripping hatred of anyone with BPD who is in an intimate relationship. I have to admit that I read other articles by the woman on her site and it was enough to make me shudder. I had a nightmare that she ended up as my therapist Not really, but I do know of people with BPD who ended up in the offices of people who couldn't hide their hatred and unprofessional bias toward their diagnosis. I'm lucky to have a therapist who really clicks with me and understands my issues without increasing my shame and self loathing. I really appreciate that Wolfsong and So it Goes took the time to do some research on the author of the article. I'm going to remember that everything on read on the web isn't by an "expert". I tend to forget that sometimes!

[Zabine]

I read the whole article through. Even though I still suspect my husband is a narcissist, I do not necessarily agree with the brash generalizations....

[Forgive77]

I'm glad this was researched more. I had the same feelings. This actually made me feel bad about being borderline again. After I read it...a week or a few days ago...I was slightly ticked off b/c of the overgeneralization, and the fact that she seemed to write it as if we "know" what we are doing when we do it. Like it's all a master plan. I was pretty upset about that, and had to really talk to myself up, down, and out of it. I do know that most Borderlines are women...I forget the percentage...which is probably why she chose the borderline as a female, but there was nothing professional about the article at all. There was no real information given to give hope to either side. Just all the negative stuff...nothing was done to create empathy for either side in my opinion. It was also not stated that there are different types of borderlines, and different types of narcissists. The book I accidently quoted before was the wrong book about narcissits. I've read the one below half way threw and it was very helpful. "Disarming the Narcissist" Wendy T. Behary, LCSW You will get more out of this book for sure if you want to learn more about narcissisum, and help you cope with one in your life. It creates empathy for the narcissist and teaches you what causes it like, the narcissist child was elevated to an adult at a young age, or was put on a pedistal their whole life, or the parents acted as if they were Gods at home, and the child was a peon. So you learn what creates a narcissist, and a borderline who is afraid of letting their child become borderline...I'm pretty sure could end up making their child a narcissist out of fear, because they would overdo making their child have a sence of self. Just a little thought.

[Zabine]

I tried to find an electronic version of this book, no joy.....

Originally Posted by Starvin4Perfection

Ok so I have BPD and I see my imago therapist twice a month and talk about whatever struggles I'm having in my life, whether it's work, family, relationship... whatever. So I'm talking to her last week and explaining what's been going on with my bf and I. We had a couple really rough months where we were constantly bickering over the dumbest stuff. We went on vacation about 3 weeks ago and the bickering seemed to completely stop... we finally got to spend some time together! Being that he's a pilot, we don't get to see each other too often; about 2 - 3 days a week during the week... sucks, but it is what it is; we get by. So anyway, we had gotten through a couple weeks with no arguments... nothing; it's like we got back to normal!!! So two days before I saw her, the bf and I got into an argument... I got pissed, and after calming down told him how I felt and got a sincere apology. So I'm telling my therapist this story and she mentioned that he has some narcissistic personality disorder traits... I'm thinking no, he doesn't really. So she names a few of the traits and I agreed with some... not others. So anyway, she tells me to read this book called The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists (it's in the mail) and tells me that Borderlines and Narcissists are drawn to each other??? I guess because we grew up with the same childhood wounds... but handled them differently. Has anyone heard of this??? I found a great article on it actually, happy reading.

http://gettinbetter.com/dance.html

I read the article and honestly...I think it's very perceptive. This part is really dead on:

Core injuries that undermine/derail self-esteem start during infancy, and are reinforced and perpetuated throughout childhood. In the simplest of terms, core disturbance means that the hub of your wheel is broken or damaged in some fashion. When the very center of your being has been compromised, all the spokes that emanate from that point, will be weak and susceptible to breaking under any amount of pressure. Core trauma impacts every aspect of our existence. It influences self-worth, and determines how we think about and take care of ourselves, in personal and professional relationships.

The Narcissist usually compensates for core self-worth deficits, with rescuing or fixing compulsions, athletic, scholastic or professional over-achievements, charm/charisma, amassing material wealth, etc. The Borderline compensates for core deficits--but does it with her well-worn ability to seduce, for that is the only arena where she feels any true sense of mastery or self-confidence.


The article does state that it mostly assigns the Narcissist Role to the male and Borderline to the female.

IMO In the western culture men are shaped to be Narcissist and women are shaped to be Borderline. Little girls are bombarded with unrealistic sexualized images of what it is to be feminine especially on the internet. Boys are encouraged to be violent. Just look at the video games aimed at them and the increase in gang activity.

As a borderline (self-diagnosed) I am more often than not in emotional pain. My sense of self is constantly in flux and I look to the world with pained eyes for some sense of comfort. I could blame it all on my parents...they did a pretty bad job at being my nurturers. My dad should have been an abortion...but that's another issue. However, even though I know they didn't do their part it isn't all their fault. Bad parenting, biology and an invalidating environment (school, peers, culture etc.) have all led to my disorder.

The research says that being "BPD" isn't a life sentence but I beg to differ.

[Secretum]

I skimmed through this article and some of her others, and I am baffled. They are riddled with inaccuracies-how did she manage to get a master's in psych when she knows *nothing*?!

And the constant random use of color, italics, and bolding really annoyed me. I might send her an e-mail (too bad that anything over 150 words is too much for her to handle). I want to know how she is getting away w/ this!

As for whether or not borderlines are attracted to narcissists...I don't really know. I have some borderline traits, and most of the people I'm attracted to don't have narcissistic tendencies. At the same time, I do find others who have struggled emotionally in general to be rather attractive...

This woman is an idiot though, as a narcissist, I actually kind of prefer to seek out men much more powerful & pompous than I. Once or twice this has resulted in someone with BPD which was a series of explosive violent arguments & then him ultimately feeling weak or helpless. But more often than not, I usually find myself impassioned with another narcissist & once or twice an antisocial. Those usually just fizzle out, though, & are surprisingly bland in their aftermath. It's like a challenge, almost, to seek out someone strong & attempt to overpower them. But I've found the perfect fit now, so it doesn't matter too much ultimately.

[mistyeyed]

The Borderline compensates for core deficits--but does it with her well-worn ability to seduce, for that is the only arena where she feels any true sense of mastery or self-confidence.

When their intense craving for love is met, painful sensations they've come to interpret as loving feelings, evaporate. At this point, the Borderline feels bored or annoyed, and pushes away. With healthy/wholepartners who need continuity of loving feelings, the Borderline feels emotional claustrophobia, which compels her to disrupt episodes of authentic intimacy between them.


yikes..this article describes my ex and I down to a t.....

[shezbut]

The Borderline compensates for core deficits--but does it with her well-worn ability to seduce, for that is the only arena where she feels any true sense of mastery or self-confidence.

When their intense craving for love is met, painful sensations they've come to interpret as loving feelings, evaporate. At this point, the Borderline feels bored or annoyed, and pushes away. With healthy/wholepartners who need continuity of loving feelings, the Borderline feels emotional claustrophobia, which compels her to disrupt episodes of authentic intimacy between them.

I have avoided reading the link, because I'm afraid that it would take too long & I wouldn't grasp the concept. The words above describe me pretty darn well!

I have a pattern: in love, a worry strikes out of boredom, the worry makes me run in fear. Fear that the relationship is doomed to failure. I don't really love him, because why else would worry strike? While the relationship is still going, I am in agony! I feel shameful for "acting" normal and feel dissociated from myself for a good week. I HATE times like these with a passion because they are so frightening for me. I can't stand it!!

THAT'S the sad part, imo. It's not like I'm away from him just to have fun, F-him. No! It's not like that at all!!! Instead, I'm trying to just get through the day. Hopefully, I won't feel this way again tomorrow. Do people think that we enjoy emotions like that over and over again?! Heck no!!!

That's all I've got to say.

Shez

[mistyeyed]

Originally Posted by shezbut

I have avoided reading the link, because I'm afraid that it would take too long & I wouldn't grasp the concept. The words above describe me pretty darn well!

I have a pattern: in love, a worry strikes out of boredom, the worry makes me run in fear. Fear that the relationship is doomed to failure. I don't really love him, because why else would worry strike? While the relationship is still going, I am in agony! I feel shameful for "acting" normal and feel dissociated from myself for a good week. I HATE times like these with a passion because they are so frightening for me. I can't stand it!!

THAT'S the sad part, imo. It's not like I'm away from him just to have fun, F-him. No! It's not like that at all!!! Instead, I'm trying to just get through the day. Hopefully, I won't feel this way again tomorrow. Do people think that we enjoy emotions like that over and over again?! Heck no!!!

That's all I've got to say.

Shez

Sometimes I don't think I can even be in a relationship... I'm just too volatile. I often wonder why I even have friends to be completely honest.. how can they possibly be friends with someone who isn't really a someone rather a loopy ball of emotions. What exactly is distinguishable about the person in me that's a friend or intimate partner.. what part are they actually friends/lovers with?

Whatever it is, it's too quiet and infrequent to recognize I think. I have no idea what emotions are appropriate for anything and I can't trust myself to get it right.. if happens to be right, I just assume the other person is being disingenuous when they're nice or responsive. Because there's no way this person should be nice me.. they have no reason to be. I can't tell where the attractive person begins or ends inside my head.

I'm certifiably hopeless.

[Fuzzybear]

......