another very low moment

"Whether a person walking away is rude or not is a matter of perception."-cbox

True. I personally believe this disorder (among others) is one of perception.

"NOT everyone is going to like you, and you'll be constantly letdown if you base how you feel on the reactions of a few. It's better to focus on the ones that appreciate what is being said, as opposed to those that choose to walkaway" -cbox

Also true. As someone with BPD, I personally focus on those who seem invalidating to me rather than validating. I will even go out of my way to further focus on my perception of their so-called 'reaction'! I am constantly letdown and then self-critical about it!

Speaking just for myself, perception is huge with me. I honestly know my perception is skewed. As I said earlier about the woman at the meeting who stares out the window while I'm talking...Why are my emotions so wrapped up with that? This person is irrelevant to me, why do I even care? The rest of the group was listening intently...If I can't self-validate, shouldn't this be enough validation? If I get a third party opinion, someone might say to put it into perspective. Maybe she was having a bad day, maybe she had bad gas, maybe she has depression, maybe she can't even hear what I'm saying!

Focusing on the supposed invalidation, simply invalidates me further to myself. I'm reassuring it for myself. Yay for my deluded thinking! Whoo! Go me!

Talking openly with honesty is bravery. Talking with honesty and not caring whether it's perceived as valid or not by others is integrity. I have yet to learn this for myself in all situations. I personally get so caught up in my perceptions of others' reactions that my whole view is distorted and I am emotionally affected! Then I need someone to validate my emotions. *facepalm*

I agree that not everyone is going to like what I say. For example if I have a particular political view, there will always be someone out there with the exact opposite belief!

"One of the things that is at the heart of my BPD is in the inability to perceive things as they are or to determine someone's intentions towards me" -mara

I am the exact same way...I can't perceive things as they are. I perceive them how they appear to me, often intertwined with emotions.

"Maybe I cannot base by current experiences on my past ones..." -mara

Maybe we should not, but we do. We learn via conditioning! With enough reinforcement of invalidation we will repeat the same behaviors --thoughts included...

" My behaviors are learned from a mother who constantly and consistently punished or ignored me whenever I attempted to express my feelings"

Likewise...(well a father)... if our behavior (or disorder of behavior) is caused by a lack of validation it would make sense that our perceptions would be distorted. If a tree is bent by the wind long enough the rest of it will grow that way. Our personal truths need to thus be verified by the external world. Which isn't always forgiving...lol, to say the least.

Validation is not truth however, at least in my understanding. Although a feeling may be true to me. It doesn't make it valid to everyone. But since we are lacking some vital piece of integration and self-validation, we are left without the ability to verify our own truths and validate them as the external world would. If someone questions my personal truth as being invalid (and they can do this in even the most subtle way)...I am extremely offended and usually respond with some sort of unhealthy coping mechanism (anger, defensiveness etc.). If they do so via criticism, oh man, I'm ready to get all kinds of 'crazy.'

The goal, at least for me, is the ability to validate my own truths and to dissolve my distorted perceptions so that I can see things as they are. Without getting emotionally affected.

Imagine one of those trick mirrors; I know it is a trick mirror that I'm in front of, but I am still standing in front of it looking at myself, I look elongated, much taller than I am, or much shorter and wider...I hone in on what is 'wrong with the picture' my huge head or my tiny feet...I can't see myself how I really am until I stand in front of a regular mirror. But I don't have a regular mirror (ability to see things as they are) so I ask another person. Do I really look this way? They look at me and say no. But I don't believe them, I see the elongated image of myself...So I ask another, is this how I am? They say no. I still don't agree, I am seeing still the image that's distorted. My goal is to first get in front of that regular mirror, so I can verify what I'm actually seeing in 'real time'. Until then, I perceive the skewed image as truth. However, I keep having to ask others because I know something is not quite right...Well the ultimate goal is to then leave the mirrors entirely so I can experience the world as it is (still with the image of myself in the regular mirror imposed in my mind ie. self-validation) -- this is what mindfulness teaches.
Sooner or later I won't be viewing the world through any reflection or conditioning via the past. It's a goal at least...Either way, what others say seems like it matters, but it really doesn't help until I can verify it for myself (hence why traditional therapy doesnt work for ppl with BPD). At least I know where the problem is. I don't have an off-switch as far as my sensitivities toward rejection and invalidation are concerned, though.

I can say, we are all valid here. Our self-truths and feelings are valid. Our criticisms are valid. Our fear is valid...We don't have to validate others, and others certainly don't have to validate us. What about free-will and expression?..Then again I don't want to open up a giant can of philosophical worms, either. Sorry for getting a bit off topic.

All I can truly validate in myself right now is that my perception is not accurate nor is it truth. I, of course will perceive others as rejecting and invalidating if I have a tendency to do so because it's become my natural response and part of the way my mind developed. Remember that tree that bent?

As far as being dramatic, yes, others may perceive us BPD's that way...but remember, perception does not equate truth.

Strat...you say it much better than me. I get too caught up in my own feelings for my own good.

Thanks mara. I get caught up too...I'm a major fail at being emotionally detached from things (by things I mean almost everything) lol!

Would it matter if you were ignoring me?? How should I feel if you were?

This would be applicable to all of us to varying degrees.

Let me answer and lets keep this focused on the topic.. A group of individuals and some of them getting up and walking away for coffee... You give a pretty good example of this "touchy feely" therapy that I talk about.. Everyone owes you, Everyone has to accommodate you, Everyone has to validate you and on and on and on. That is not true nor is it realistic. Because what you're saying is others getting up and walking away to get coffee would invalidate your feelings and therefore they can't do that. They don't have that right. You're wrong! A person has to put their mental health needs and what is best for them before others.

In the forum.. it seems Bili has to bring attention to herself. That's my opinion, and I could be wrong. It doesn't make sense though to change your name for security reasons and then alert everyone to this. It's contradicts common sense and security. That is a pretty reasonable assumption and I think the average person would agree with me. When Bili writes she gave her normal "bpd spiel" it comes across as if it's being forced onto others. It's something that doesn't need a "spiel". It's completely reasonable it may rub some ** not all ** people the wrong way. Yet people who love this "touchy feely" approach to therapy want to force those who are being rubbed the wrong way to have to sit and listen to it and put their own mental health needs on the back burner.

I would be one of the ones that would get up and walkaway, because it's better than the alternative which would be me verbally ripping their heads off. It's not if I'm going to do it... It's a matter of when I'm going to do it, and it's always worse than people ever imagined. That is how bpd affects me, and then people tell me something along the lines of "well, you should've just excused yourself (or walked away). They may be doing what is best for their own mental health needs. This is the other side of the coin.

Also, a group environment is NOT a good place to seek validation. Here's why... not everyone is going to agree or validate you. It's best to find that validation within yourself, and that can be done by getting a variety of input from others.

Let me give an example of how this can be done. Everyone (except me) in the forum can support Bili and tell her it was the right thing to do to start a thread discussing her new name. You've all validated her whether it's right or wrong.

I come along and say it doesn't make a lot of sense to do that, and it does seem to be a bit dramatic or attention seeking. I've not validated, but I have given a different perspective and there will be many (not in the forum) that will agree with me. What was the motivation for creating those threads? Was there some sort of expectation or hidden agenda behind it? Was the intent pure? I've attached something I wrote titled Checking our Motives!!! below... I would've linked but it's on another psych website. The general idea would be applicable, and we have all done this.

Bili now has two opposing points of view. She may choose to ignore everything I say, and settle for your point of view... That's the wrong approach in my opinion, but she has that right - or - she could think about what I wrote, question her motives and make her own determination. In a sense she'd be validating herself which would be a far stronger validation than relying on people who agree with her.



p.s. Stratocaster.... I loved the parts of your thread where you pointed out how I was right..lol

I'm very new to expressing my feelings in personal way and talking to others who feel the same as I do about some things. I am NOT defending the people that offended you but hear me out please.

You are in a place, just as I am myself, that I WANT to feel better. I WANT to know the tools needed for overcoming all of my fears and frustrations.

Perhaps some of the people in the meeting aren't to the same level as you and I?? Does that make sense? Perhaps they're not taking the discussion seriously. Remind yourself why you're there and focus on you. You're the only one that matters in that moment and that needs to be validated.

I hope you're feeling better soon

I have come to the conclusion that I have a right to disagree with someone and not to seek approval from anyone.

It has to come from me. I know. I am just not quite there yet.

I agree too that being told about how badly I behave does not change the behavior.

I agree that I cannot always expect others to like me. But do I like myself? I still need to work on that.

I do reserve the right to disagree with anyone's method of help.

Or agree with it.

And also to develop my own.

And I do appreciate everyone on here.

Broken

These things don't seem at first relevant, but they've become quite helpful to me in looking at my BPD, too. I'll share them because they have in fact helped to put things into a healthier perspective. Maybe someone else can find some use for them too.

In my program of recovery for my alcoholism my sponsor drills a few things into my head all the time:
"Check your motives."
"Other people's feelings are none of your business."
"Hand it over/ let it go."
"Would you rather be right or would you rather be happy?"

When I did my fourth step (fearless and searching moral inventory) in my 12 step program I found that my behaviors and thoughts were quite messy. I also found out my leading motivations for things though. My motives are generally self-serving and usually revolve around my pride and my approval from others/validation. Asking myself why I think or behave a certain way can be extremely helpful. It's interesting that this also applies to DBT.

For instance, (this is recent) I found out some friends got together, and at first I was offended that I wasn't invited to that particular /specific social event...An event I wouldn't have gone to anyway. Before impulsively confronting my friend about it, I asked myself, why would I do that? what's my motive? It could cause more problems. My motive was that I was seeking some form of validation...I wanted her to reassure me that she valued our friendship. I wanted the supposed 'offense' to be 'justified'. I wanted my feelings to be 'right'... Also, I would often perseverate people with a lack of concern for their feelings because of excessive investment in my own. My motivation is all 'wrong'. It's skewed. I instead talked with my friend casually and asked if she had a good time, she said something like "next time we'll do something that you'll want to be part of too." This validated me just as well, but the validation isn't the end all be all. The point is that my motives are pinpointed toward this much to often. My goal is to have my motives directed toward true compassion, kindness and love.

Also, other people's feelings and behaviors are none of my business. This doesn't mean I don't have to care, empathize or validate...but it does mean that what is in other people's heads are not for me to worry about or concern myself with...It's THEIR HEAD! I get reminded of this when I overanalyze something that someone else says or does. Quite awhile ago, I heard a friend sharing something in a meeting about an instance in which I offended her. Okay, she didn't say my name, but I knew which instance she was talking about. I impulsively confronted her. I said something like "hey, that's still bugging you? I didn't mean to offend you..." bla bla bla. I had talked to my sponsor at some point later on and was still out of joint about it -- I was obsessed with her feelings around my actions. She reminded me, quite firmly (which can come across as cold and removed, but is actually just having healthy boundaries) that "her feelings are none of your business! Unless they volunteer something to you, keep out of people's feelings!" I couldn't argue with it. lol

I also have to 'hand it over' often enough...this is simple acceptance..okay, so it's not so 'simple'...I DO have to remind myself that acceptance/ surrender is actually the easier thing to do rather than fight with myself so much. So something bad happened then. It's not happening in the present, I can accept it --it's a part of integration (a thing I lack). I want to keep moving forward, I don't want to get stuck there in that bad feeling and stay in that sick cycle I put myself into...I end up missing the present which could be an awesome experience.

And...I would much rather be happy than right. I will be adamant about being right sometimes and it will cause unecessary hurt feelings, time wasted, resentments and emotional exhaustion. When I'm obsessing about being right I have to bring this concept to the forefront of my mind. What's more important, really? Do I want to argue my 'rightness' to the bitter end? Or do I want to just accept that someone else doesn't have the same view as me and just go about being happy. I don't have to sacrifice my own values, I can disagree. But I don't want to push it out there until I'm out of breath either...Happy sounds much more appealing and in my experience it is!

These things have been helping me put things into perspective a bit better. I also like what Irishclover had to say...Maybe those people who walked away aren't even ready to look at themselves and their own problems,-- they're not 'there' yet. This could be the case... I know people who are uncomfortable with the thought of looking at themselves will leave or ignore me when I 'own' my stuff and talk about my desire for growth.

Anyway, maybe this will help someone, it certainly helps me.

Oh yeh Billi, I agree...we don't have to agree with anyone. There will ALWAYS be someone out there who disagrees about something; I will say green is the best color someone else will say blue. I don't want my freedom to disagree taken away from me, I wouldn't do that to anyone else either. I still need to like myself, too. I think if I did, I wouldn't crave approval or validation so much...
But, we're all here, which means we know there's a problem and we want to change it, that's in the right direction . Best wishes

those men who got up and got coffee.

Okay, rude to me, but none of my business. So what if they did not want to hear my sharing. I was in a really bad place that night, too, not very emotionally strong. I think if I were in a better place, I wuold have just laughed it off.

It's not about them.

thanks again,

Carol

and if I were feeling that much more confident that way, who knows? I would have come off better.

Hey, I'm not the epitome of mental health ...lol. When my sponsor told me 'her feelings are none of your business' I felt like she slapped me in the face. She's hung up on me when I go on tangents about the behavior of others. She even told me once that my own feelings are none of my business! She has called my thinking 'wacked' and has threatened to fire me as a sponsee a few times. I was taken aback. By now I am getting used to her 'tough love' even if it phases me when I'm more emotionally unsteady at the time...My BPD tells me she hates me. The truth is that she cares enough about me to want me to look at myself with honesty and really do some authentic work on myself. If I had a sponsor who coddled me and validated all of my 'wacked thinking' I wouldn't have any desire to change myself. I am beginning to, if not get away entirely from, at least see where my black and white thinking screws me up. If I know where I'm messed up I know that the perceptions I have are not accurate -- I can't trust them.

Gosh, I've been offended by some random person's facial expression...I've obsessed about things like that...I've dragged them up in my head and have made myself miserable. It's awful...it's not a nice feeling at all. I understand the feeling completely...I get stuck on it. I'm in no way close to practicing healthy behavior or thinking all the time. Anyway, it's okay to voice your feelings, to share thoughts in a group setting and to want validation, nothing wrong with that! I get into problems when I get 'stuck' on my feelings, I can't trust my thoughts around them at all! We're likely to throw something out the window that we can't trust.

Get a news source from a sketchy news site? I can't trust it...It's point is defunct, I can't be certain that what it's saying is true =INVALID. My own thoughts are invalidating in themselves...my BPD is self-perpetuating. Why else would I need validation so much? I get stuck in the mud and I'm spinning my wheels...lol *shakes head at self*

I went back to the group tonight full of beans again.

But it was so crowded.

I still don't know what to think.

I am still very badly triggered by being in a crowded unruly room. I have claustrophobia, also a sa survivor, so I was extremely anxious. I don't like being in a room where I am practically touching knees and elbows with men I don't know!

Then they skipped over me during "checkin" time. I thought the leader was apologetic about that later, but I still did not feel like I could talk there. In fact, one of the guys there said, "Go ahead and skip Billi. That drama queen."

So I don't think I want to be in that group anymore.

What others think is none of my business but I did not go there to be abused verbally either.

Where is the balance?

I am tired of running from things.

And also tired of putting myself in abusive places.

B.

PS:

If anyone is interested, there is a more detailed reason why I left in the "Abuse Survivors" Forum; the thread is called: "Safety Issues in Support Groups".

My issues are not just bpd. I am also an abuse survivor.

Carol