How many times are you able to forgive?

I think the one thing that also has been true for me is that I can end up forgiving a person BUT I still don't have to LIKE the person

IMO some things are unforgivable.

My sister manipulating my parents to think I stole from them when she was the one stealing is unforgivable. And she continued that lie in writing and to lawyers and a judge.

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Originally Posted by Open Eyes IMO some things are unforgivable. My sister manipulating my parents to think I stole from them when she was the one stealing is unforgivable. And she continued that lie in writing and to lawyers and a judge.

I forgive because holding onto the anger only hurts me, not them cause they could care less how we feel. I would have lots of reasons to not forgive my ex for everything. I choose to forgive him but I will never like him EVER. Forgiving let's me release the anger inside me & get on with MY life.

I saw how my unforgiving grandma was regarding her brother & their inheritance (he died before I was born) It made her into a very bitter old lady & I swore I would never let that happen to me. I think all that held in anger made her a very dangerous alzheimers person too who struck out at family. We really don't know how held in anger from not forgiving can effect us later in life besides keeping us bitter throughout our life

I agree some things just are unforgivable, I think it’s still possible to come to acceptance and peace within oneself without feeling forgiveness, if that makes sense. I hope you can get that acceptance and peace if you don’t already.

We had a similar thing happen with my aunt and uncle, one of my cousins did this to them just before they died, he extorted money from them under false pretences. I think he may be a sociopath. I personally don’t feel forgiveness is appropriate, it’s not mine to forgive, his parents forgave him all through their lives and he abused their love and trust for them. He didn’t visit them when they went into care and didn’t go to their funerals, he was right there when the solicitor read the Will I understand. If I saw him I’d cross the street. I accept what he did, I’m at peace that he evaded the law, I hold only love in my heart for my aunt and uncle. He is nothing to me, I’m not bitter, but I accept he is what he is and will continue to lie, cheat and manipulate. Forgiveness not even relevant in this case IMO.

Peace to you OE.

What you described was something outside of your personal life. And you learned to keep a distance from the selfish and self serving person. So you were not personally scape goated and abused.

Yes you’re right he was not directly exploiting me, I hope I haven’t offended you?

I had to keep a very close eye in this individual to make sure he didn’t exploit anymore of my older family, he had actually tried with my parents too, but they rebuffed him.

My point was meant to be, forgiveness is not always necessary or possible because of the persistent danger a person may pose.

No, you did not offend me. I have a hard time with this and what has been hard for me is experiencing a sister that wanted me to suffer. It gave her pleasure and she did some very down right cruel things that traumatized me.

I do not understand the joy and satisfaction toxic people experience when they want another to hurt.

No I can understand that you would struggle with that. I don’t understand it either.

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Originally Posted by Open Eyes No, you did not offend me. I have a hard time with this and what has been hard for me is experiencing a sister that wanted me to suffer. It gave her pleasure and she did some very down right cruel things that traumatized me. I do not understand the joy and satisfaction toxic people experience when they want another to hurt.

Some things I will never understand. Acknowledging that fact & accepting it, is a good thing cause then we don't get stuck there & can go on.

Some people will hurt anyone that gets in the way of their agenda. If it wasn't you, it would have been who ever else was in her way. The things I found have been most traumatic in my life are the things where I had initial expectations & they didn't go that way but went against those expectations in a very hurtful way. Seems like expectations magnified the trauma & made it much worse.

What I experienced was a horror show. Beyond creepy and evil.

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Originally Posted by Open Eyes What I experienced was a horror show. Beyond creepy and evil.

Yes it was & will never be understood because you are not the mind of the person (your sister) doing it. Easy to get hung up trying to understand something we never can understand though & that can keep us stuck

So true.Some things are hard to forgive.IMO,the hurt that was unintentional,if you know what I mean,like a person didn't do or say things with the intent to hurt others,but the others got hurt anyways,those are easy to forgive.In most instances the person apologizes and makes changes in their own behaviors.To err is human and those acts or words should be forgiven.But when things are said and done knowingly with cruel intent to harm then how can they be forgiven??It's not that easy.How can one forgive the predators?. What is more important in these scenarios is to forgive ourselves for trusting the perps.We should forgive ourselves for not being more protective of ourselves and for being that naive.

Part of the challenge has been how I could have loved someone who could be that dark and cruel. And calculating.

I don’t have that kind of dark in me. I don’t fantasize revenge either, just want the truth exposed.

People who fall into the dark triads fantasize about causing harm and punishment. Not anything I do as a human being.

“Sometimes people try to destroy you because they recognize your power, not because they don’t see it but because they see it and don’t want it to exist”.

—-Bell Hooks—

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Originally Posted by Open Eyes Part of the challenge has been how I could have loved someone who could be that dark and cruel. And calculating. I don’t have that kind of dark in me. I don’t fantasize revenge either, just want the truth exposed. People who fall into the dark triads fantasize about causing harm and punishment. Not anything I do as a human being.

This is where the "expectations" I talked about come in. Society tells us that "this is the way" a sister or husband SHOULD BE, so that is what we expect & gear our feelings along those lines. Women go into marriage thinking of oh how good it is (expectations). Then when it turns out to be abusive, they are still stuck on their expectation thinking & many times don't see it for what reality actually is. Sometimes they just don't want to let go of the "expectation" thinking it can't possibly be wrong even when reality is hitting them right in the face. Sometimes we need to ask ourselves why we can't let go of the unrealistic expectations & see reality.

I know in my case, I expected a college educated guy to NOT be like my uneducated dad in his thinking & actions. Unfortunately, that was not what I got & maybe the college education made him worse. Then with a mom who said, don't worry, he will grow up & become responsible.....I let the crap slide for way too long before having enough. My unrealistic expectations got me into a marriage my red flags said not to. Sometimes we let things slide also because at the moment they are not effecting us as negatively as they end up doing in the long run & we can look back & see the signs. But I have to be pushed to my limit before I will walk away & like the legal actions just took too long in my case & left me in the situation I am in now. Things are actually much more complex when we are going through it & outsiders tend to minimize it too at times. It is difficult to go back & recreate every "why" that made us think the way we did & even that can drive us crazy if we continue to try. I tend now to just learn from that past, the basics so I don't fall into a trap like that again.

Yes, part of forgiveness is about forgiving ourselves for not seeing the situations soon enough or even for not taking action when our gut feelings said something seemed wrong (in one of my cases, I had no idea what action to take & was forced into reaction mode) life is complex & we need to be more forgiving to ourselves too & not get stuck there either

I left room for imperfections. I did not expect perfect as I know people have flaws. Now with all I have learned I can better see red flags I missed. I try to remind myself that I did not have the information that is so much better identified and understood now.

That being said I honestly did not see just how dark and cruel my sister could be. Some people are good at hiding a very dark part of themselves.

One thing I noticed is how my sister tried to project her own deceptions onto me. It got to a point where I figured out what she did because she would blame me. And she baited constantly, and she would get so angry when I did not take the bait. It was so horrible when I went to my parents home. Thank god my older brother was there and heard her cruelty towards me from the basement.

As I have mentioned, my older brother had to go outside and ask the police officer to tell my sister to leave me alone. She was a real monster.

I listen very differently now.

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I left room for imperfections. I did not expect perfect as I know people have flaws.

Expectations don't necessarily imply PERFECTION. Expectations are just the way we expect things to go that are usually just DIFFERENT from reality.

I never expected a perfect marriage but I sure expected it to be different than it turned out to be