[ToeJam]

Saw an interesting post yesterday from a member making the claim that ‘the depressed’ according to ‘scientific reasoning’ have a more realistic view of life than those who do not suffer from it.

Not venturing an opinion on this per say… I’m always sceptical of claims of this nature (irrespective of the credentials of those asserting the conclusion)… I personally believe that there are far too many variables and differences in suffering for that to be a universal case.. but gah, without having any citation of the study, I can’t draw proper conclusions.

It did get me thinking though… a pet project that to this point I have not had the motivation nor courage to buckle down, research and write – an essay of sorts.

One that looks at the rational of suicide, not so much promoting it, but that puts logic to what we keep being told is illogical. Would be drawing quite heavily on critical thinking (school of thought) and other philosophical elements.

Had quite a scary encounter with these notions while at University… was not exactly well hinged at the time (could be argued that I’m in that position now), and made an unforeseen mistake in choosing critical psychology as an option towards my course. Challenged point to me and opened the door to far too many unanswerable questions for me at that time.

Much older now… perhaps not wiser, but I do have the ability to qualify and organise my thoughts in a balanced way that was unattainable back then. One of my problems is that I have deep seated beliefs, both on an intellectual level and baser instinct level… and I want them challenged, I want to confront them… try to unseat them.

But therein lies my concern that I wanted to broach and ask opinions on: Responsibility to self and others. For myself, to focus attention on this and write down in depth and in detail my reasoning… could I be opening myself up to a world of pain? – in essence reinforcing my outlook on life and putting into a logical context my thoughts on lack of point, futility etc.

Then responsibility to others… who would I get into discourse with? I want to be challenged on a taboo subject… but in a way that isn’t whimsical, isn’t from postulation by another that has little knowledge of the core material. To find that discourse, could mean opening it up to as many people as I can… but it could be very triggering, could put thoughts into another that they hadn’t considered… it could be dangerous and I’d be responsible for that… couldn’t live with myself if I set off another.

Sorry if this all seems pretty daft… but to me it revolves around the fixation I’ve had with suicidal thoughts that stem back to childhood. I want to put them to bed somehow… and till now I’ve been playing one man tennis.

I know that one answer could be to write it for my T (not even mentioned this to her)… but I’d be very sceptical towards the reception I’d receive on that level… + the time and money wasted for her to need to read it.

[ToeJam]

Took a small walk to clear my head after posting this… sometimes a bit scared and anxious when I actually tell others about the thoughts rattling about in my mind.

Brought a big question up though – would this just be the product of anger? A big f you at those who ram their bigoted views down our throats on depression and their disgust at thoughts of and certainly committing to suicide.

Meh, I don’t know.

What I do know... and perhaps others here share this... is how much of what we think and feel is not spoken... that we know that others just wouldn't understand, would try to reason with us... and we have to just nod and smile, say they are right just to make them feel they've achieved something, give them peace of mind... all the while internalising how close we are to falling into some metaphorical abyss.

[ToeJam]

And now it does all seem rather silly

How quick the fire fizzles out

There's no harm in you writing it, even if you do it just for your eyes only. It might be quite therapeutic for you to just get it out.

[Fuzzybear]

Hey TJ, you know I think you're more on the money than you realize with your idea to write about this. The whole reason why we as humans have still not been able to master an understanding of not just suicide, but any truly challenging problems, is because nobody wants to make a concerted effort to discuss these so-deemed taboos. Everybody says suicide is bad, and a permanent solution to a temporary problem, blah, blah, blah... all spoken by people who've never been depressed. We (the depressed) know that there are so many more dimensions to suicide than they will ever know. It's not just about killing yourself, that is merely a climax and manifestation of a lifelong of misery and feeling worthlessness, being rejected by others, etc., etc. When you flick a switch and a light comes on, that's the end product we see, but we know that 95% of what has led to that light coming on is not located in that act itself. There's the power station, substation, grid, power lines, mains cables, mains box in your house, the utility bill to pay, and finally, at the end, you can flick the switch. People on the outside only see the act of suicide, and then focus on that, you know, "Why?", "How?", "What did we do wrong?". There's so much more to it than that. I think people who are depressed have been given a glimpse into a side of life that nobody else will ever see. Maybe this is what hell would be like, I don't know.

So, I think you've got a good idea . Who knows, you might break ground and usher in a whole new field of human psychology all together. This is how new stuff is born, somebody challenging the norms or the things that nobody wants to talk about. We often in our society today try to be too objective and much of the discussion falls by the wayside. When you push someone hard enough, or even make them seething with anger at your ignorance, they often blurt out the truth, which is very different from what the entire world was expecting. This wanting to not hurt people's feelings stuff is what is stopping the world from challenging its major problems. Stuff like racism, homosexuality, transgenderism, religion, suicide, depression. These things are very real and affect millions of people, but we choose not to discuss it. It challenges people too much. And, it proves another thing - these so-called happy people who run the world and tell depressed people like us what to do, don't know all the answers, they are essentially just as stupid as anybody else would be. If they knew everything, then why is the world still such a mess?

I know in my country, racism is another major "sore" topic that nobody wants to talk about. I'm going to say it, not that I want to stir anything up here, but it is the norm nowadays that white people are designated the big racists of the world, past and present, and that people of colour are the one's suffering. But, that "rule" is so old and obsolete already. There are some black people for example that are so much more racialistic than any white person would ever be. I mean if you say are a black person, and you keep harping on the fact that some white guy is racist, and that white people did this and that to your people, aren't you giving the concept of race a lot of credit in your argument? Doesn't that make you a racist too? And, I know that nobody wants to talk about it, but why are interracial relationships being pushed so much nowadays? It's everywhere on TV and the internet, as if they are almost trying to market it or something. And why is it always a guy of colour with a white woman? I have not seen one ad with a white guy and a woman of colour. I take that as a direct attack on me as a white guy, I feel they are trying to send me message of me being not good enough as a white man anymore, that I'm no longer wanted in this world. What the hell is wrong with wanting to preserve your race or culture through your children for example? Are they saying that everybody's children should be one colour and the whole world one race? Wouldn't The Lord God have created us like that then? Why are we different to begin with?

I'm sorry if I have offended anybody with my postings and if I've gone totally off track here, but this is part of the reason why I'm depressed in the first place, just all this acceptance the whole time. People attack you personally and then cover it in a cloak of normality and worldwide acceptance, to show you that you're the one that's insane. Basically, you're attacked but you're not allowed to do anything about it, you've just got to accept what they offer as the norm and conform to it, and I hate it. It's so subtle that most people don't even realize they are being attacked.

But, in a round about way, that is my point here. People all just say, "What, you're suicidal? There's definitely something wrong with you, bro! You've gotta go and see someone." Maybe I'm suicidal because I just can't take the lies that this world is telling anymore. Maybe I'm suicidal because of how this world has devalued me, making me no more than a number, a date of birth and death. My whole damn life can be summarized on a snotty little piece of paper - born so and so date, died so and so date, first name, last name, other names, son of X and Y, father of A and B. He is survived by C and D. There you go, that's you done, now you may leave... NEEEEXXXTT! I'm just so sick of it. What happened to seeking the truth? That's why, TJ, I think your idea is a good one. Somebody needs to ask the difficult questions for once. I believe suicidal and depressed people are the people who have seen the truth, that this world is actually not paradise, but hell. Other people just ignore you and say you're crazy, "You're too damn sad and depressed to think straight, you're bringing my mood and everybody else's down, get away from me". Now I also realize why I don't have any friends, they just don't want to hear what I bring to the table, because it means they might be wrong, and heaven forbid that!

I'm sorry to everyone for venting and ranting like this, but sometimes I just can't help but think, damn, not everything can be my fault. We get so used to blaming ourselves for everything that goes wrong. I think that's the major reason why people are suicidal - they just can't live with the thought of being a "downer" anymore.

[ThisWayOut]

I've tried to broach that topic myself several times, both with treaters, and with family/friends. It's still a very taboo topic. I still get sideways glances and that look of panic flash through someone's eyes at the mere mention of it. It's weird that you posted ths today, because I have seen three other posts on the topic just last night. It fascinates me, and I too would like to have a conversation with someone around it. Or, I would like to hear what others have to say (I'm not 100% sure I have fully formulated what I want to express on the topic beyond a few basic sentiments). I too worry that I might trigger someone or make them sad or scared or whatever uncomfortable feelings may come up. I would not want to be the catalyst for someone else's suicide, but then again, I don't think it's a decision people make on a whim if they have never felt suicidal before, never thought about it before...
I would say message me if you want to talk about it, but I am not on here reliably enough to warrent that. If you are ok with a long pause in the conversation, feel free to message me. Some days I'm here several times a day, sometimes not for weeks.

[Nammu]

Have you ever been on the receiving end of someone who says; if you commit suicide I'll kill you?!

Suicide brings out irrational feelings in all sorts of people. Is it because it defies the basic, self survival instinct that we're all supposed to posses? Perhaps it is a form of survival to want to stop living in a null life?

I have only questions on this subject and no answers. Why am I so riven with guilt for wanting out of a pathetic, non productive life? It's not as if there is anyone around me that cares enough to help me change it, doesn't that prove the worthless, uselessness of my life? Why are people who try punished by being locked up and made to feel even more worthless instead of helped to succeed? Would it not be kinder?

[Rohag]

Originally Posted by ToeJam

...how much of what we think and feel is not spoken... that we know that others just wouldn't understand, would try to reason with us... and we have to just nod and smile, say they are right just to make them feel they've achieved something, give them peace of mind... all the while internalising how close we are to falling into some metaphorical abyss.

The unspoken well spoken. All well spoken.

Actually I recall there was a link, in a recent edition of the PsychCentral Newsletter, to an article regarding research that has been done that has suggested that people who have depression have more realistic views of life than to people who are not depressed. If you search for the term: "depressive realism" on the internet, you'll find information regarding all of the research that has been done with regard to this theory.

Also, there is a YouTube channel called: "Suicide-Prevention Resource Channel". If you find that channel on YouTube, you'll find playlists of many YouTube videos related to the topic of suicide prevention. But, in particular, you'll find a playlist of 3 videos of Yale Professor Shelley Keagan (spelling?) discussing the morality of suicide. The playlist is titled: "The Philosophy of Suicide".

[ToeJam]

Thank you.

A lot of food for thought here, some additional points to consider.. I'll look at those links when I get back from work Skeezyks, thanks.

[Little Lulu]

Many cultures have come a long way in their comfort levels discussing previously difficult subjects - gender, sexuality, race, domestic violence, addiction - all are discussed more openly today. Suicide seems to still be taboo. So I think you've brought up an interesting point ToeJam.

My cousin committed suicide in his early 40's. He was currently under mental health care, taking his medications as directed, married, employed, owned a home, not addicted ... but he had not been psychologically well or happy for years. Of course I was sad to lose him but I understood. He had done all he knew to do. I trust he has found peace. That said, I don't bring this up unless I know someone very well and trust their level of open-mindedness. So, in that regard, I am no different than society in general.

(((ToeJam))) Thanks for allowing me to say this.

[ToeJam]

Originally Posted by sidestepper

Have you ever been on the receiving end of someone who says; if you commit suicide I'll kill you?!

Ha! Yes, from my dad in fact... he didn't say it with malicious intent, but I had just essentially rocked his world with an attempt and was in hospital for that very reason.

Oddly enough, it used to be illegal in this country to attempt suicide. Had this recollection that at one point, it was punishable by execution.. but I can't find any evidence of that on line.

"The Suicide Act 1961 (9 & 10 Eliz 2 c 60) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. It decriminalized the act of suicide in England and Wales so that those who failed in the attempt to kill themselves would no longer be prosecuted."

(additional note: it can still be a crime in Scotland, also part of the UK, if done in a public place and is classified as a 'breach of the peace')

along with a further explanation:

"Suicide may be defined as the act of intentionally ending one's own life. Before the Suicide Act 1961, it was a crime to commit suicide, and anyone who attempted and failed could be prosecuted and imprisoned, while the families of those who succeeded could also potentially be prosecuted. In part, that criminalization reflected religious and moral objections to suicide as self-murder. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas had formulated the view that whoever deliberately took away the life given to them by their Creator showed the utmost disregard for the will and authority of God and jeopardized their salvation, encouraging the Church to treat suicide as a sin. By the early 1960s, however, the Church of England was re-evaluating its stance on the legality of suicide, and decided that counselling, psychotherapy and suicide prevention intervention before the event took place would be a better solution than criminalisation of what amounted to an act of despair in this context.[3]"

Both cited on Wiki Suicide Act 1961 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In some countries such as India, a failed attempt is still punishable by up to a year in prison.

All of the above is slightly off the beaten track of what I was looking at... but it plays a part in the historic rational of depression and acts of desperation.

Personally, I think there should be places a person could go to have a quiet, peaceful, dignified end put to themselves. All of this sneaking around & desperation is uncivilized!

[Nammu]

Originally Posted by The Skeezyks

Personally, I think there should be places a person could go to have a quiet, peaceful, dignified end put to themselves. All of this sneaking around & desperation is uncivilized!

Ever see Soylent Green? There was a place where you could go. It was beautiful, you picked what music you wanted what moving scenery you wanted to be surrounded by and given drugs that put you to sleep. I've often thought about that place. Of course I wouldn't want to be turned into green food afterward!

[ToeJam]

Originally Posted by sidestepper

Ever see Soylent Green? There was a place where you could go. It was beautiful, you picked what music you wanted what moving scenery you wanted to be surrounded by and given drugs that put you to sleep. I've often thought about that place. Of course I wouldn't want to be turned into green food afterward!

Heh, I actually thought there was something kinda cool about that.... apart from creating a populous of canibals of course... but I mean the giving back, you die but you help towards others living.

Pretty fuzzy logic... but hopefully you know what I mean :s

Yes. I haven't seen "Soylent Green" in many years, although I have seen a few clips from it recently on YouTube. But that is kind-of what I picture in my mind... hell... if they want to... they can even turn me into green food I won't be around to know the difference. Maybe they could feed me to the cows! They feed 'em most everything else ... or hey... maybe the pigs ... yes I think the pigs would be great! I've read that the bodies of dead Buddhist monks in Tibet used to be put out for the vultures to feed on. That could work too, except it's a bit messy for today's society...