[nummy]

I read it right here on the main page. The study that says certain people take doing nothing to be a positive move, and that doing something, even positive, counts as a negative.

I wish I could read the article again. Did it say how to change this "internal theory"? This truly describes me to a T. Taking Abilify has helped a lot with motivation--for instance, cleaning? I am now grossed out by a dirty house, and am now (for like the first time in my life) see cleaning as a positive action. It's embarrassing to admit that but my point is, what the article said really hit home for me. But even Abilify has it's limits, and it's physically draining me ( probably because I'm--gasp! MOVING MY BUTT lol).

So how do I move from recognizing that I see inaction as a positive to seeing action as a positive? Are people born this way? Is this a part of an introverted personality or am I just gun shy? Is this part if PTSD? Why why why....

If anyone has any ideas or "gets" this or has read the article, can you (please?) speak up and contribute to this thread? Inaction -- procrastination--depression-- has altered my life badly. I'm doing ok today, better I should say. But I want to learn how to take positive action, instead of seeing inaction as beneficial. There's nothing beneficial about being a couch potato, about being a bystander in my own life.

Thank you!!!

[nummy]

Here's a link to the story:

Research reveals why people avoid taking positive action while preferring emptiness, failure and self-deprivation

[ToeJam]

This article actually made me a bit angry... and I know that could trigger off the response of being in denial (and I won't rule that out )

Depression hits people from all walks of life and those who have had some measure of success as well as those who have not.

I don't personally believe I am afraid of trying... of taking risks... and as such, I've embarked on long term goals. Depression acts in cycles for me and whereas at one point of the above journey I will be achieving at a rate that I am personally pleased with... depression will hit me like a bomb and my motivation, concentration and just general ability to function let alone dedicate myself towards a result just goes out of the window.

It can come to a juncture where you start to wonder what the 'point' is, especially when you seem to be set up to fail due to something that swoops in whenever it damn well pleases.

So, with that in mind I have come to the realisation that I need to avoid activities that have 'dead lines' or have key elements in that need to be tackled to move on... does that make me afraid of success? or just realistic and aware of my short comings?

Does this mean I am not 'most people' as it stated in the study? I very much doubt it.

I get uncomfortable with studies as mentioned in the article... they have obviously set up a hypothesis and in turn were looking for a desired result... and as with all studies of a social science nature you have to ask what variables they put in place and what variables (be they unforeseen or just ignored) they missed... sweeping generalisations (and that's what resonated with me) are not my thing.

Don't get me wrong... if the motivational 'free' video (haven't watched it yet but curious as to if it plugs something) helps any, then fantastic... just at first glance, my irritation levels rose. Sorry

[Whoaminoone]

I followed the link, read the article, and watched the video. Although a lot of it hits really close to home (every example of the "attachment issues"), it left me feeling angry. Basically, what I got out of it was my depression and anxiety is my own fault. Ok...I already knew this much (to some degree). Of course, then it goes on to try to sale me a 12 step AHA program to magically solve all my emotional issues. Naturally, it claims to be the simplest solution ever....stop thinking you're depressed and you won't be depressed! Gosh...why hadn't I thought of this? I'll just tell myself to stop and I'll be cured!! If only it really were such a simple solution....

[-jimi-]

I can also sit here and think up theories how other people's minds work. I just look at them from the outside and then conclude what they are thinking and why.Then I call myself an expert and publish a book.

There is many problems with the article, but one is, it does not address people with depression, it addresses people who haven't reached their dreams. Huge difference right there.

Of course even for a non depressed person change is scary. If you have a job that feeds your family and pays the rent, it will feel safe. Quitting that job to do what you'd rather do, is a huge step. Me, I want to go on a vacation. The positive people cheer BUT THEN GO let nothing stop you! But I have a cat that is old and needs his med, am I a loser for choosing to spend time with him? No. Sometimes you just can't have it all.

Unicorn pooping rainbows all over the place. Oh yea.

[ToeJam]

Just to quickly add, Nummy, please don't see any negative reply as disparaging towards you... My comments were directly with regards to the article and I mean it when I say thank you for sharing

I do think there is potential for it helping others... I'm just very cynical (though I'd 'like' to think that that helps me in some situations).

So yeah, please keep posting and sharing

[-jimi-]

If you are the kind of depressed that makes you tired all the time, unfocused and unable to plan, doing stuff IS hard. It's not being POSITIVE about sitting there and rot. But "just" cleaning is hard when depressed, it is hard to get your body moving, it is hard to plan, it is extra draining because it doesn't come natural anymore, you mess up easily because your mind is simply not in tune with what you are doing.

So is it bad to force some activity? NO. But if you manage while being tired and low, you need about a million pats on your back. Also, it the cleaning turns out OK, you can be happy about the result and maybe it will help a little. Maybe even inspire to keep going at the pace you are comfortable with.

But don't beat yourself down and think you are happy if all you can do is sit around. Only idiots would claim that.

[nummy]

I thank you all.

My first reaction was anger too, then intrigue. Then it was a "wow" moment. Maybe my paranoia is easing, but I didn't sense blame from the author.

For me, it explained a lot. I really do choose to do nothing a lot, both depressed and otherwise. When I choose to do nothing,I really do feel relief, same as if I'd completed a task.

Of course, the article doesn't say all depressed people do this, just a certain segment. I think it could explain hoarding, as I've had issues with being really messy. It isn't always depression, I'd just get anxious at the idea of cleaning.

My theory (for me)(beyond depression) is I think having an alcoholic parent, my "reward" center in my brain got scewed from when I learned (and was "rewarded") by the "rabbiting" thing ( "freeze" n be rewarded with a feeling of safety). Thus, doing nothing was better than fleeing and thereby angering my out of control drunken father. That's my theory, and I think it (inaction) contributed to my depression as well as resulted from it. What a bad cycle. by the way, all my sisters also have had issues with this, too, and guess who I learned to "get quiet and hide" thing from? My brothers would either fight or leave the house, but us girls never did. And my brothers have had much less an issue with inaction that us sisters did. Coincidence?

Does this ring a bell?

I'm sorry the article hurt feelings. I just wanted some other opinions. Thank you.

This article explains exactly what's happening in my life. I never knew happiness and I'm almost afraid to be happy. I've been in my neutral, numb state for as long as I can remember, and I think this has caused me not only to not be happy but also not even recognize opportunities to be happy.

But, there's another thing that this article does not mention, and that's falling into a pattern of inaction because you were guilted and goaded into action as a child. This happens when there is someone in your life (e.g. a parent) that constantly tells you what to do and guilt-trips you for not doing something. The effect is you eventually hate action and will never take it on your own until someone forces you to do something or your life literally depends on it. Even then some people still don't do it and the results are obviously tragic, but at that point I think the person doesn't care about themselves anymore anyway. This thing happened in my life and the net result for me was that I did not want to do something out of my own effort, everything became a "chore". I'll be quite honest now, I am overweight, but the constant bombardment of information from my family and stuff on TV telling me how I'm going to die young, and how unhealthy it is, and all this negative information has demotivated me so, because they all make a mountain of a molehill. All their talk is making it sound like such a huge thing to tackle that you don't even want to attempt it. And, I'm actually now at a point where I would like to die young, so I really don't care anymore and that obviously means I do nothing about it. So that's another factor that they should add in to the article, is to avoid people who have already attained success (i.e. success stories, because it is the case with so many people that other's success makes us feel WORSE about our own situation and leads to inaction) or people who THINK they are coaching you by interfering or guilt-tripping you in your life, seek a professional to help you. The worst two words that are often used are "come on...". I guess to sum-up what I'm saying is when someone tells you to take action that often leads to inaction. People need to inspire you to do something, not tell you.

To nummy, yeah, I had an alcoholic father too and much of what you describe is what happened to me too. It was always best not to argue with him. Thing is, I have no brothers or sisters so there was no one to turn to or escape with. I believe that today I am a lonely person because I just found a way to do things by myself being an only child. It was difficult growing up as a young boy with a drunken dad. There was a time in my life when we never communicated (when I was about 9-12) and I recall him not wanting to do anything with me but rather sit and drink with his drinking-buddies. Towards the later parts of the evening they would always (in a drunken state) drag me closer and then begin to preach about all sorts of stuff and tell me to go fill their glasses again. All this stuff I believe is what made me withdraw eventually. Couple all of this with Asperger's syndrome (recently diagnosed) and about 10 years of bullying at school (which I never told anyone about of course) and I'm pretty much dead inside at this point. I see no reason to do any action. Tackling one problem is unfortunately only the tip of the iceberg for me. I have hundreds of issues in my life that all need attention. It's all just too much .

[Altered Moment]

I think self sabotage and fear of success and happiness are real phenomenons. I don't see how they relate to real depression and anxiety. In my experience they come from low self worth. When in a depression I may have those types of symptoms but they come from being in the depression not from my attitude toward life and success.

As TJ said because I have lived with depression my whole life I have had to accept limitations and not shoot for the moon. That is reality not self sabotage. I don't give the study much credence. Of course changing your attitude about many things can help you in general but in my experience will not cure my depression. Depression is a very organic physical thing for me and happy positive thoughts do not put a dent in it.

[-jimi-]

Nummy, if that is what makes you not act, I'd rather say it was once a way to cope, but now given a different situation is a bad strategy. If you truly can start to change to another, that is good. I still don't think there is blame having a bad strategy. Sometimes things just are what they are.

[-jimi-]

I sometimes take it easy when I feel overwhelmed. And I can feel that way fast, even if my mood is good, or even, more often if it is because then I do more. The more I do, the more overstimulated I get. I have learned I always need time to unwind, usually on my own. I know today's world shames introverts who get their energy from own time instead of socializing, that doesn't mean I have to pretend I'm an extravert. I just have to take things my own pace. Balance is important, I guess.

It is possible self sabotaging does exist, but I don't think it exists to the point where all depression or inactivity is self sabotage.

[nummy]

I think self sabotage is a vicious cycle. Pain, inaction, guilt, fear.

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

I think self sabotage and fear of success and happiness are real phenomenons. I don't see how they relate to real depression and anxiety. In my experience they come from low self worth. When in a depression I may have those types of symptoms but they come from being in the depression not from my attitude toward life and success.

As TJ said because I have lived with depression my whole life I have had to accept limitations and not shoot for the moon. That is reality not self sabotage. I don't give the study much credence. Of course changing your attitude about many things can help you in general but in my experience will not cure my depression. Depression is a very organic physical thing for me and happy positive thoughts do not put a dent in it.

Yeah, you've quite a point there, positive thoughts don't really do any "damage" to depression, it's a phenomenon that is quite a lot stronger than that, and smarter, it's very cunning. The reason I like this article is because it motivates me still to do something constructive. I've given up on happiness long ago, but I do like the feeling of satisfaction that comes from doing something/completing a task. That is a sliver of what happiness might feel like, and if I can get that it's better than nothing.

[nummy]

. I've given up on happiness long ago, but I do like the feeling of satisfaction that comes from doing something/completing a task. That is a sliver of what happiness might feel like, and if I can get that it's better than nothing.

That is so well said. And you're right: for those of us with recurrent depression or dysthymia, satisfaction is about as close as it gets. I've felt happiness about ....three times that I know of. But I've had moments of sheer contentment, and yes, these moments are linked to action, not inaction. So I just have to trust history here, I guess.

It's such a damned conundrum, this depression thing. We get to a point in our lives where we don't feel much emotion, just that empty feeling. I've even reached a point where I don't care about anything, my own health or even waking up tomorrow. But, I ask myself, if I don't care about life and death itself even, why the hell am I so afraid of failure then? What stops me from doing ANYTHING that my twisted mind can come up with. The world should be an unimaginable vast place of possibilities for someone like me who doesn't care. I mean if I feel nothing, why would I feel disappointment when I fail then? This is how depression screws with your mind. If I am truly uncaring then I should have balls of steel and bravado in bucket-loads, because the end result shouldn't matter right? I mean, I've just proclaimed that I don't give two hoots about what happens. And, that's the thing. Something still makes you care. Something still says be careful, don't be a fool. It's literally an internal war within yourself, the two sides of you doing battle. Doing things, creating things, teaching people things, it not only acts as a distraction from this internal conflict, but acts as a form of self-validation for me. It reminds me of who I was before. Even in real wars, of the scale of World War I or II, there are many things that come to a standstill, because the conflict takes centre stage and all the world's resources are poured into it. But, on the sidelines, little operations still went on day to day, despite the overall circumstances they found themselves in. The corner baker still baked his breads and cakes to the best of his ability, even when they stopped his supplies he made another plan, the community newspaper still gave out it's weekly dose of news, focusing not on the conflict, but upon the little things happening in the village, even when it was almost impossible. It is these little things that keep going and adapt and innovate during times of trouble. We should all find our little things in us that are so hard to kill, that just won't quit. There is a undying spirit within us all, that no matter what gets done to it, still rises from the ashes. There are always many reasons to focus on the greater conflicts going on within us, and we put so much energy (i.e. resources) into being combative, into solving this war. The only way to end a war is stop the resources that are supplying it with weaponry and ammunition. I think one should look back to one's own "little village" and again appreciate the things that matter when there is no war going on. Let the fighting go on over your head, let the bombers fly over. Let other people fight if they want. As long as you can remember your "little village" and what makes it special, the wars don't matter so much anymore.

Sorry guys for the long philosophical post . But, I guess what I'm trying to say is that maybe we have lost sight of those little things that we used to like about ourselves, our unique little things, because we are too preoccupied with our depression (inner conflict). I've heard people say that depression is anger turned inward. Maybe action or doing things is a way for us to remember our unique talents or skills we have, that one thing you and only you can do, that others just can't understand or do. We all have them somewhere in us, we just forget.

[nummy]

Originally Posted by StbGuy

It's such a damned conundrum, this depression thing. We get to a point in our lives where we don't feel much emotion, just that empty feeling. I've even reached a point where I don't care about anything, my own health or even waking up tomorrow. But, I ask myself, if I don't care about life and death itself even, why the hell am I so afraid of failure then? What stops me from doing ANYTHING that my twisted mind can come up with. The world should be an unimaginable vast place of possibilities for someone like me who doesn't care. I mean if I feel nothing, why would I feel disappointment when I fail then? This is how depression screws with your mind. If I am truly uncaring then I should have balls of steel and bravado in bucket-loads, because the end result shouldn't matter right? I mean, I've just proclaimed that I don't give two hoots about what happens. And, that's the thing. Something still makes you care. Something still says be careful, don't be a fool. It's literally an internal war within yourself, the two sides of you doing battle. Doing things, creating things, teaching people things, it not only acts as a distraction from this internal conflict, but acts as a form of self-validation for me. It reminds me of who I was before. Even in real wars, of the scale of World War I or II, there are many things that come to a standstill, because the conflict takes centre stage and all the world's resources are poured into it. But, on the sidelines, little operations still went on day to day, despite the overall circumstances they found themselves in. The corner baker still baked his breads and cakes to the best of his ability, even when they stopped his supplies he made another plan, the community newspaper still gave out it's weekly dose of news, focusing not on the conflict, but upon the little things happening in the village, even when it was almost impossible. It is these little things that keep going and adapt and innovate during times of trouble. We should all find our little things in us that are so hard to kill, that just won't quit. There is a undying spirit within us all, that no matter what gets done to it, still rises from the ashes. There are always many reasons to focus on the greater conflicts going on within us, and we put so much energy (i.e. resources) into being combative, into solving this war. The only way to end a war is stop the resources that are supplying it with weaponry and ammunition. I think one should look back to one's own "little village" and again appreciate the things that matter when there is no war going on. Let the fighting go on over your head, let the bombers fly over. Let other people fight if they want. As long as you can remember your "little village" and what makes it special, the wars don't matter so much anymore.

Sorry guys for the long philosophical post . But, I guess what I'm trying to say is that maybe we have lost sight of those little things that we used to like about ourselves, our unique little things, because we are too preoccupied with our depression (inner conflict). I've heard people say that depression is anger turned inward. Maybe action or doing things is a way for us to remember our unique talents or skills we have, that one thing you and only you can do, that others just can't understand or do. We all have them somewhere in us, we just forget.

I'm so sorry you are hurting, and you have such courage!!!! I hope you get as lucky as me and find a med (in my case Abilify) that can help your brain remember what siimple pleasures can do> I've been in depressions so bad it was like being in a decades long level one coma. It boggles my mind to think of the millions who were and still are in those shoes.

Originally Posted by nummy

I'm so sorry you are hurting, and you have such courage!!!! I hope you get as lucky as me and find a med (in my case Abilify) that can help your brain remember what siimple pleasures can do> I've been in depressions so bad it was like being in a decades long level one coma. It boggles my mind to think of the millions who were and still are in those shoes.

Thanks for that, yeah, that is so right, it is like being in a coma. I've never felt so numb and zero-like before.

[Altered Moment]

Copied from another thread I posted in. Somewhat related.......

Life and the universe is vast and fascinating and varied. Is there anything besides composing and music you find value in. I have to settle for less than joy. Contentment is the best I settle for. I find satisfaction in things, like learning for the sake of it. I can apply my intelligence and creativity in ways that I get satisfaction from but rarely pure joy. I can master things that may or may not serve any useful purpose for me just for challenging my intellect. Finding meaning and purpose in suffering is much more difficult but people do it. Probably like me they are not atheist.

Gaming I was into for about five years and it was very challenging and I learned a lot about building websites and some programming and computers.

I guess I am saying I had to set lower standards and by financial society definitions do meaningless things that satisfied my intellect and creativity.

My dream was to be a biochemist and discover the cure for depression or something. The depression didn't even allow me get through college. I think there is a big spectrum between pain and pleasure and I become mostly satisfied or accepted where I am on the scale and trust me it includes a lot of depression.

I've been thinking about this some more, and the thing is I've tried taking action in the past, but when you're happy (or semi-content at most in my case) then the things you do tend to work out most of the time. But, when I'm depressed, the action I take seems to fail every time, and I still don't achieve what I want. Everything I attempt ends up as one big screw up every time. Even the stuff that worked out when I was not depressed don't work when I'm depressed. It's almost like when you do something with a heavy heart you're putting bad energy into it and it's doomed to fail.