Afterlife ~ yes or no?

Okay, since you wrote something intended for me I'll make one final response. I've been informed that my expressed views contributed to your other thread being deleted. I don't want to contribute to the deletion of this one.
So... I don't find it hard to believe, I find it impossible to believe based on the fact that there is no evidence. As I said, I'd love it if our conscious mind went on after our body dies but I have seen no good evidence of that and yes I have read all the stories I could find on NDEs. It's true that energy never dies AFAIK so we will always be a part of earth in some form. Everything has cycles... mine started when an energetic little sperm won a race to an egg. I don't recall waiting in the wings for that zygote to eventually develop a fully formed and functional brain so that I could jump inside.
As far as the Christian view of an afterlife I can never believe that. Not only is there no evidence that anything supernatural in the bible took place, there are too many discrepancies in the actual authorship of what is known as the Christian bible.
But the real problem with that is that the basic ideas and philosophy were borrowed from older religions. If I was going to choose a religion I'd at least take the oldest one
But it isn't for me to convince you to give up your beliefs and I apologize if I seemed to be doing that. All I can do is give my beliefs that are based strictly on known facts and my own first hand knowledge and last but not least, my intellect. I have to live my life based on reality. I think it is unhealthy for anyone with a mental or emotional illness to stay as grounded in reality as possible for our own mental health. You are free to have these beliefs just as some of our members are free to believe that the government reads their minds or that aliens have implanted something in their whatever. To me it just isn't wise to encourage people in those beliefs so I don't. Do you understand what I'm talking about?

I know what you're talking about George, but I disagree. To me faith is an important thing. It doesn't matter what I believe, but it matters that it gives me strength and hope.

I can respect that. I just couldn't live on faith and hope in mythological beings. I always have the hope in the possibility that I won't let myself down. I would feel very vulnerable basing hope on something that my education has shown me is very very suspect.
If it matter, I don't have much faith or hope in medications which I guess you could say is part of science. I did something once that I felt very incapable of doing. I told my doc that it was cold comfort because I couldn't have done it w/o a pill. He told me that the pill didn't do it... I did.
John Lennon... whatever gets you through the night/your life?

How does one explain how our universe exist in the first place? Well the Big Bang. Ok where did all that energy come from? The universe is expanding but finite. Ok what's on the other side?

How does life exist? In a universe where the law of entropy rules how did molecules organize themselves into what eventually became us? Meaningless questions? I think not.

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That's kind of what the whole thing is about isn't it? Making up answers to questions we will never be able to answer. Every culture has had their religions which are now taught as mythology. I think we all agree that Sky Woman didn't send out a turtle to collect bits of dirt to create the ground we live on. Erebus probably didn't appear and bring night nor Love the day as Gaia the earth appeared and set the stage for all the deities who followed in Greek mythology
Maybe the process of expanding is part of entropy? When you get done with thermodynamics maybe you can move on to the study of space and time. Why is all that space needed. It must be needed right? Or does that lead back to randomness and entropy?

We are star dust... we are golden

What's after life? A question that is as old as man himself. Beliefs must be based on facts. So for me I base my beliefs on that which can irrefutably be proven. I believe based on what I have proven to myself that there is more to life than our current existence.

But that's just me and I respect anyone's choice to feel differently

I wasn't making up answers. I have beliefs based on my experience but I can't tell you they are true. I am not one who believes that if it looks like there is no answer one shouldn't ponder the question.

I happen to believe that ordinary human perception is very limited. It's a filtered view of reality. It may serve us very well but that doesn't mean it's a total view.

Look at the phenomena of experimentally proven quantum physics. It has brought into serious question our classical physics view of reality.

Look at modern cosmology and string theory. Very bizarre ways of looking at reality but taken very seriously by physicist.

It's forcing an overlap between physics and philosophy.

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I understand the laws of thermodynamics. Equilibrium. Conservation of energy. The tendency of molecular reactions to always go to a lower energy state. The gradual decline into disorder.

When I die and my body decomposes, or the heat i produce may satisfy the laws of entropy but to me it doesn't explain the organizing, orderly, creative, processes of life. If you say it is randomness and chaos I don't buy it.

Entropy and life and cosmology are still being debated. A black hole, the ultimate in entropy, is still being debated. If energy escapes it then it goes against entropy.

The forces in the universe are well defined but there is no unified theory. Are they the only forces? What about dark energy? Maybe there are other undiscovered forces?

If you read Joseph Cambell on mythology he concludes that all cultures in all times have universal common myths. The stories are different but the common themes are the same. The creation myth is one example. He believes that these are universal truths innate in humans and passed on in story form. He was a huge fan of Carl Jung. You may think he is full of it but he was a serious researcher and philosopher.

Not you in particular. Humans... tribes... cultures. You go into that further in a subsequent post so I'll take it up there. Maybe

I share that belief in a way. I made a post along those lines recently.
I'm not so sure it really serves us all that well though.

To my understanding there can only be theories in science despite the fact that some are called laws. I believe scientists would agree. In fact I know they do. Everything will always be a theory for the simple fact that nothing can be tried over and over ad infinitum to make sure. Thats pretty much semantics though

I've only read one Campbell book and that was fiction. Various mythology may have similarities. I'd be surprised if they didn't. I don't believe that has any significance as an indication that there was a creator if that's what you mean. I'm pretty sure I mentioned the innate need to explain how the world came to be. Every culture I'm aware of has creation mythology. That was my basic point in mentioning it. At this point the Abrahamic beliefs are still referred to as religion. I think that sometime in the future they will be thought of as mythology just as the older beliefs are now.
Back on topic... when we speak of an afterlife it always has a religious connection. It's hard to separate the two. I don't believe in any religion so I'm very skeptical of life after death. At least in terms of our mind/spirit continuing conscious thought and memories. The people who believe in reincarnation always have reasons that make sense to them to explain why we don't recall past lives just as the religious have reasons that make sense to them as to why there are so many contradictions in their religious texts and the fact that there is no evidence for any of their beliefs.
Very few people actually want to die, as in ceasing to exist as a conscious being. Most people need some type of crutch to get through life and a hope that there is a better world waiting for them when their death comes. For some simply the fear of "hell" or eternal damnation is enough to convince themselves they believe. I find it all very interesting but I'm long past the point where I could believe without visible proof. I don't normally bring up the subject though. To me, religion is fine... until believers try to spread their beliefs where it isn't welcome. People who believe have a tendency to get in your face about it. I'm not going to let that slide. On the other hand some are willing to have an intelligent discussion about religion. Theologians and students of theology for instance. I find true believers, the people who actually follow what's believed to be the teachings of Christ or whichever prophet, to be pretty tolerant and easy going. I hope we're understanding each other and I'm sorry if my thoughts aren't well ordered and focused. I seem to have a problem with that recently

edit:
Also I hope my color coded text makes sense too... it was the easiest way I could think of to answer all three posts... or the parts that I wanted to answer I enjoyed the dialogue. Thank you.

Your thoughts are very coherent and valid.

Yes theories and laws are subject to change. In physics and chemistry a theory holds a lot of weight. Its mathematical underpinnings have been proven over and over by experiment. It is only when new evidence comes in to contradict it. Likes Newtons equations and laws are very accurate at a certain level. Then Einstein came along and they had to look at it differently. If you throw a baseball or shoot a missile newtons laws work just fine. The variations from Einstein are so infinitesimal they don't matter. Quantum mechanics has laws that have been proven ad ifinitum experimentally. That doesn't mean they answer all the questions. A theory or law may be very comprehensive and totally accepted by scientists but that doesn't mean it doesn't raise more questions than it answers.

I am just raising questions that I find intriguing and fascinating and I think may apply to the original question.

Do you believe there is an after life?
People answered it pretty generically yes or no. Consciousness that continues or energy. Some anecdotal evidence and discussion about NDE.

You are the only one that has mentioned religion, Christianity, the bible, or encouraging people to believe in myths in this thread.

We probably agree that it doesn't belong in the depression section. I pointed that out and agreed with you in the other thread right before it got deleted.

I enjoyed the discussion too. Thank you.

If I'm the only one then it's because I'm the only one who dared lol. Reincarnation is a part of at least two religions and that was implied in the first post... "coming back til I get it right." That is a basic part of the Indian religions. NDEs that I've read about have all been linked to Christianity. And NDEs really don't carry much weight. Doctors routinely "kill" people in certain types of surgery these days. I read an article recently on someone who "came back to life" in the morgue. I guess we don't know death as well as we used to think we did.
I think the implication of religion in the question was there whether anyone else mentioned it or not. And some did mention heaven, hell, and reincarnation. All religious concepts no? As an agnostic/atheist who was heavily indoctrinated in the Christian religion that religion is my foremost frame of reference. For an Indian agnostic/atheist it might be Hinduism. For a Pakistani agnostic/atheist it might be Islam. Most people pick & choose the parts of their religion they abide by anyway. I don't think it would be intellectually honest to say that religion wasn't implied as early as the first post.
Anyway, I think I've had my 2 cents worth on the subject

Yes, substantiated proof by just one: The Ghost w/I my Child...these have been proven by facts that the children present in their nightmares/dreams. Also, faith, faith being the strongest of the two.
Katy

You may read discrepancies w/I the Bible but when it comes down to it all, everything that's mentioned in the Bible always comes back to the same. It's just a word here and there that makes it seem different. Also, Jesus did raise people from the dead, faith tells me this is true and if you believe otherwise, I cannot attest that, it's your opinion. The Bibles states it as true, therefore it is.
Katy

Honestly, George, you make statements from the seat of your pants and only you find that the statements are true. You talk out of both sides of your mouth. Please, please try and be consistent! and oh, to you too lol
Katy

So it was about religion all along. And you say I'm making unsubstantiated claims while you talk about ghosts and raising people from the dead? You should be glad that I'm not the type of member who reports posts and in the future I think you should follow the guidelines and post religious threads in the religion forums. I also think you should put me on ignore. I'm certainly going to put you on ignore.

No, dear, it's not about religion, it's about faith. And you asked for something to substantiate so I gave you the program "The ghosts w/I my Child" I wasn't talking about ghosts, merely giving you a response to what you asked for. That's all. I'm finding it offensive that you'd report me when you and Zinco are moving along with great speed and both are making an impact on this issue. I look forward to what else you both or other's have to say.
Katy[

QUOTE=George H.;4096274]So it was about religion all along. And you say I'm making unsubstantiated claims while you talk about ghosts and raising people from the dead? You should be glad that I'm not the type of member who reports posts and in the future I think you should follow the guidelines and post religious threads in the religion forums. I also think you should put me on ignore. I'm certainly going to put you on ignore.[/QUOTE]

I have never reported a post and wouldn't do so. The site rules or a moderators view may be different than my view about open discussion. Above all else it is support forum. Especially the Depression and similar sections.

http://forums.psychcentral.com/rules...-8-2014-a.html

I would imagine someone reported the previous thread and that is why it was deleted. I imagine a moderator would have PM'ed you Katy as to why since you started the thread..

Hi Zinco ~

I posted your name only to show that you were making an impact on this subject as well as George. I apologize if you thought I was referring you as being one to "report". No, that comment was definitely for George. I would hope no one reports anything as this discussion lies mostly upon "faith". And, Zinco, thank you for your input on this subject as you give credence to a lot that has gone unsaid up until now.
Thank you
Katy

I couldn't agree more!

i've always believed in an afterlife.

what?. i'm not sure exactly.

but i think their's something after this life

the way i've always seen it is, before you are born you wern't aware of your existance- you were only really fully aware when you entered the world

so what my point has always been, if their was nothing after this life what happens to us?

do we explode?. break apart in to millions of peaces?

no i don't think so.

and i've never believed that we just "shut down", either.

but those are just my thoughts.. and i don't even know half the time where they came from

I believe in an afterlife. I also believe in "hauntings," which is why I'm deathly afraid of my husband going out of town on an overnighter next Saturday. My fear of a possible haunting is just a few months old and manifests itself after dark. I know it may sound child-like . . .

I guess I have believed in an afterlife ever since being a child raised in a strict Catholic home. (I know this isn't a thread about religion. Just saying that explains the origin of my belief.)

There's no definitive proof either way, but I can't imagine spending the rest of eternity in heaven or hell. Wouldn't living in infinity be sorta boring after a while? The idea of doing something or being somewhere forever scares me.

i'd like to think that after all this crap we've been through (after all this struggle, after all this doubting ourselves, we do have somewhere nice to go)

i've never believed simply in heaven and hell- that's not too say it's not real. like you say we just don't know

i like to believe we return to earth, just with all the horrible bits thrown out- wars, illness, hunger, that kind of thing.. but that could have a lot to do with the fact i don't really believe in our bodies just shutting down

What is it about consciousness that is immaterial. The sensation of a pin prick, the love of a dear friend, the heat from a hot stove? You can pinch my arm and damaged unmylinated C-fibers will send messages up axons and dendrites and result in further synapses all the way to the brain, whereupon chemical will release and that is the scientific explanation of pain. However, what science can't ever explain is the actual subjective sensation of pain that makes you say "ouch!", the perception of color, the things we perceive, feel and think. Science deals with objective facts, not subjective reality, which we are each intimately aquainted with. however, consciousness isn't like tables or chairs. You can't objectively point to consciousness. In fact you can't see another persons consciousness. You can only assume they are conscious by how they act and respond.

I think that there might be an afterworld. I'm agnostic in this but I look around and see many things that amaze and horrify me. I don't pretend I know, but I am optimistic that this immaterial thing that I am, this active, organizing, creative thing I call the self is real and that it may survive after the death of my material self.

If we were strictly material, physical things then why aren't computers conscious? Will they ever be? A computer has sufficient power to defeat a grandmaster at chess, but does it know what it's actually like to play the game chess. To have so much fun at it that it never would want it to end like so much of us don't want life to end? Or, are computers just dark inside, following electrical impulses, and the only intelligence that they do have is really owed to the code rules typed into them by software programmers?

A couple thoughts:
Would a computer ever get a joke?
Would a computer ever see the beauty in a sunrise or poem?