[Altered Moment]

Neurogenesis = new growth of neurons and dendrites and new connections.

It has been shown for some time that chronically depressed patients have a smaller hippocampus. Shown in mice, primates and humans. Not caused by antidepressants but by depression. It is not known for sure whether a smaller hippocampus causes depression of if depression causes a smaller hippocampus.

Hippocampal volume loss in depression reflects glial loss -- ScienceDaily

The Johns Hopkins Psychiatry Newsletter

Depression, antidepressants, and the shrinking hippocampus

https://www.google.com/search?q=depr...Q&ved=0CDYQsAQ

Quite a few recent studies show that SSRI's and SSNRI's increase neurotrohpic growth factors and possibly the growth of new neurons in the hippocampus and cortex. This may explain why they work in the first place for many people and why it takes so long to work.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...is-depression/

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v3...npp20132a.html

Fluoxetine-induced cortical adult neurogenesis. - PubMed - NCBI

Antidepressants increase human hippocampal neurogenesis by activating the glucocorticoid receptor

[gayleggg]

I will still take my chances with antidepressants over suicidal thoughts and plans.

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by gayleggg

I will still take my chances with antidepressants over suicidal thoughts and plans.

I think you misunderstand. Antidepressants causing increase in neurotrophic growth factors and possible increase in new neurons and new connections is a very good thing. Especially if your hippocampus is smaller than normal.

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[Fuzzybear]

Thanks for sharing this!

[TheOriginalMe]

Could also explain why they work better in conjunction with other stuff too, just the other way round to the common perception. Instead of anti-depressants getting you stable enough for therapy, it could be therapy keeping you going until your hippocampus grows bigger Interesting reading.

[waterknob1234]

Thanks for sharing. I wonder what the effect of wellbutrin and amitriptyline is. Sometimes I am forgetful. I felt stupid today at a family function and I asked where my daughter was when she was standing right by me. I had to laugh at myself.

[gayleggg]

Thanks zinco. My understanding and concentration have not been so good. I'm sorry I read it differently. I'm very glad you pointed it out and I reread the links with greater understanding. Sometimes I just feel like I don't pick up on things very well anymore. I think it's a med thing. My apologies. I'm going to try to concentrate more today.

[paperwings13]

very informative. Thanks!

[gloamingone]

This is fascinating!

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[Webgoji]

Great. Now I have a small hippocampus too ...

[gloamingone]

Originally Posted by Webgoji

Great. Now I have a small hippocampus too ...

Thanks for the early morning chuckle. That's too funny!

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[Altered Moment]

That's not the only thing I have that is small. lol

[Altered Moment]

Some of the links are broken. I dunno why.

Unraveling the Mystery of How Antidepression Drugs Work - Scientific American

Neuropsychopharmacology - Fluoxetine-Induced Cortical Adult Neurogenesis

[Altered Moment]

I added more studies.

Neurogenesis and antidepressants. Neurogenesis means new neuron growth and synatpogenesis means new connections between dentrites and neurons which mean better communication between areas of the brain.

Unraveling the Mystery of How Antidepression Drugs Work - Scientific American

Neuropsychopharmacology - Fluoxetine-Induced Cortical Adult Neurogenesis

Fluoxetine-induced cortical adult neurogenesis. - PubMed - NCBI

Antidepressants increase human hippocampal neurogenesis by activating the glucocorticoid receptor

Chronic Antidepressant Treatment Increases Neurogenesis in Adult Rat Hippocampus

The Future of Depression Treatment: The Neurogenesis Theory

Promoting adult hippocampal neurogenesis: a novel strategy for anti... - PubMed - NCBI

The Neural Plasticity Theory of Depression: Assessing the Roles of Adult Neurogenesis and PSA-NCAM within the Hippocampus

Depression

A Review of the Neuropharmacology of Bupropion, a Dual Norepinephrine and Dopamine Reuptake Inhibitor

How antidepressants spur brain growth

http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjourn...581-6/abstract

http://www.cell.com/trends/pharmacol...2814%2900165-5

Depression, antidepressants and new brain cells

[Altered Moment]

I should point out that neurogenesis and positive effects on the brain can be caused by exersice, meditation, and therapy and maybe other means but in this thread I was focused on studies on antidepressants.

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The hippocampus reacts to stress and it damages the neurons, which causes it to shrink and shrink. This part of the brain is partly for memory function. So if someone constantly has you repeat things then they might have a small hippocampus, maybe due to depression or stress.

When I was going through my schizophrenic break from reality towards the end my memory was shot. It took a year for my hippocampus to grow back to normal.

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by 0dysseus

The hippocampus reacts to stress and it damages the neurons, which causes it to shrink and shrink. This part of the brain is partly for memory function. So if someone constantly has you repeat things then they might have a small hippocampus, maybe due to depression or stress.

When I was going through my schizophrenic break from reality towards the end my memory was shot. It took a year for my hippocampus to grow back to normal.

it would have been interesting if they could have done brain scans on you throughout that whole process.

i dont know what to think of this!

I know what to think about it. Awe. The brain is an amazing thing.

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

it would have been interesting if they could have done brain scans on you throughout that whole process.

If you wiki hippocampus, one of the subsections are for schizophrenia. Our's is structured differently. People with this mental illness are more likely to have dementia too. I think that's if they go untreated for too long. One year wrecked havoc on my brain. I can't imagine living like that for a decade.

[Altered Moment]

You can find videos and articles (madinamerica.com, very anti med and anti psychiatry) that say it is not true and that actually antidepressants cause brain cell death. They say the studies are flawed. That the method they used to show neurogenesis did not show that the cells survived to maturity. This is not true. There is neurogenesis, cell proliferation, cell migration, cell maturity, and increases in hippocampus volume.

Frontiers | Primum Non Nocere: An Evolutionary Analysis of Whether Antidepressants Do More Harm than Good | Evolutionary Psychology and Neuroscience

The article above (it has sources) is based on a theory in evolution that evolution and natural selection evolve adaptations that work very well and reach finely tuned homeostasis. If you mess with this homeostasis you cause problems. I would argue that those of us with mental illness have maladaptive processes and do not have finely tuned homeostasis in some areas. The article assumes from the start that we are all perfectly adapted human beings. We are not. The nature of disease means structure, function, adaption, and homeostasis is whacked and intervention is needed. I know a guy who has been running marathons, biking hundreds of miles and eating an optimal diet for years. He just had a heart attack in his fifties. I have had nurses and doctors tell me that for some people they can do all the exercise and good diet in the world and still get clogged arteries because of genetics. That is not homeostasis or a perfectly adaptive bio process.

Here is a very good article below (with sources) that explain the problem with some of the studies, how they were overcome and how methods showed cell proliferation, migration, and maturity. It defines the terms and explains the techniques that go beyond cell division. This is from 2004.

Implications of adult hippocampal neurogenesis in antidepressant action

An increasing body of evidence from both clinical and basic research makes a compelling case for antidepressants working to reverse the negative effects of stress on hippocampal function. Future research should focus on the use of animal models of depression to more fully understand how the induction of cell proliferation and neurogenesis relates to antidepressant-induced behaviour. On a cellular and molecular level, understanding the mechanisms regulating hippocampal cell proliferation and neurogenesis in the stressed and antidepressant-treated animal will be critical.

This study below really gets into the weeds using different methods of identifying neurogenesis and looking at different parts of the hippocampus. It is from 2013

Neuropsychopharmacology - Hippocampal Granule Neuron Number and Dentate Gyrus Volume in Antidepressant-Treated and Untreated Major Depression

We report for the first time an association of untreated MDD with fewer mature GNs in anterior hippocampal DG, as well as smaller DG and GCL volume. Maturation or survival of neuronal progenitor cells in the DG may be impaired in MDD, and our data are consistent with the hypothesis that antidepressant action may reverse this effect. How cell number and volume relate to clinical characteristics and severity of depression and how antidepressant action affects hippocampal structural plasticity, require in vivo animal studies and in vivo longitudinal studies of hippocampal structure in patients.

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by 0dysseus

I know what to think about it. Awe. The brain is an amazing thing.

Indeed it is and thank god it is plastic and can change and grow in good ways. Even with all this evidence with current antidepressants I don't think overall they are so great. All of this research is going to lead to much better meds.

[Hellion]

I wonder if they've got an explanation for why they make some people feel worse, if they are supposed to cause healthy neuron growth. Also I guess I find it strange they cause healthy neuron growth when from what I understand SSRI's and simular drugs can cancel out psychdelics(which seem to let more in so to speak)like if you're taking an anti-depressant they will have very little to no effect so curious about why that is. Admittedly I did not look into it very much, either way didn't see that as a good sign to me.

Or perhaps different causes for depression?...so anti-depressants don't help everyone, also can anti-depressants over-rule other environmental and social factors? Don't expect anyone here to know the answers to all that but I am curious about it nonetheless.

[Altered Moment]

Lots of people are very curious how they work to have these effects and why they work for some and not others.

I suspect causes are a big factor and I would bet genetic sub types. my genetic sub type might work with one drug and yours another.

The most encouraging thing that is going to happen with all the research going on including genetics is that much better more personalized drugs will come out. We will dump the current ones. The above research is one small part of what is going on.

Personalized medicine based on genetic sub types is already happening in other areas and in one way with antidepressants.

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[Altered Moment]

Maybe the antidepressants lock into the receptors the psychedelics act on. I thought they acted on different receptors.

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