Shell alters?

I discovered a new type of alter online called a "shell alter" that fascinates me.

A shell alter is an Apparently Normal Part (host alter/front person) which handles daily life and is designed to hide the existence of other alters from the outside world. [10]:33 Shell alters do not exist in DID, they only exist in one form of DDNOS (now renamed to Other Specified Dissociative Disorder). The apparently normal part (ANP) is a shell through whom the inside parts/alters act. The inside parts can come near the surface, temporarily blending with the ANP. The inner parts are not regarded as separate, distinct states although amnesia may exist between them. [7]:9, [9]:5 If DDNOS is caused by ritual abuse and mind control, the shell alter is not supposed to know about the others.[9]:5 Read more: Alter Identities in Dissociative Identity Disorder (MPD) and DDNOS

Courtesy of: Alter Identities in Dissociative Identity Disorder (MPD) and DDNOS

Does anyone have anything to say about this?

I mean....anyone have direct knowledge of how this works, manifests, does it make you question your sanity?

that sounds confusing to me because it would be how i would regard myself...but the others are separate with names, ages, etc. though don't usually fully take over the body but can influence things intensely and can take over at times to talk and other variations. but at the same time, i don't know a lot about many of the others, so i don't know if that makes a difference either since it says they hide the existence of the others..but if the others hide from you, maybe it's not the same thing since you don't necessarily know things about them...

i always felt like i just 'held' them and they mixed with me or worked 'through' me, but i don't know how it was in childhood and if any took over then or not but have amnesia for events, traumatic and not, from those times (and in my adult life too).

i don't know how one would really figure this out though.

yes I have seen this.. one thing you need to keep in mind when finding things online is your location if you are not in locations outside the USA then this link is going to cause a person a bit of confusion and possibly lead a person to end up getting diagnosed with a psychotic disorder rather than a dissociative disorder.

for example DDNOS (dissociative disorder Not Otherwise Specified ) here in the USA was used as a catch all that stated it was for people who showed dissociative symptoms but ...did not....fit any other dissociative disorder criteria..the treatment provider could not diagnose any one dissociative disorder because the patient even though they said they dissociated didnt have DID symptoms\ criteria, no dissociative amnesia disorder problems and no depersonalization or derealization disorder problems. and possibly a question as to whether the patient was faking the disorder. in other words didnt meet any dissociative disorders so until they could fit into a dissociative disorder they were called DDNOS.

most times those with DDNOS here in my own location ended up being diagnosed with psychotic disorders because they were trying to go by standards outside the USA. it was only after those in my location stopped trying to self diagnose and went on just their own problems and their own locations wording that they were rediagnosed with a dissociative disorder or another mental disorder like PTSD or depression that does include their dissociative problems.

my suggestion to anyone who feels they may have alters and want to know what kind of alters that have to contact their own treatment providers rather than believing everything you find on the internet. that way the treatment provider can help you to get tested according to your own locations and standards that can tell you if you are or have a what the UK calls a shell alter.

never even heard of this.

but thanks for sharing it

I never heard of this term before either. But I do understand it. Or something similar.

For us at this point in time...well maybe not now exactly. But in the not so far past. I don't think I would exactly call it a shell alter. But it does sound similar to a couple of other familiar "states" (for lack of better terminology in our body/brain's sleep deprived vocab!)

1. Thought insertion...not in the psychotic meaning, but for the weird phenomena when you realize that you are speaking/ carrying on a conversation about a topic that you know absolutely nothing about but you're not talking out of you're arse either. As you become more conscious of the words coming out of your mouth and are struggling to understand what the heck you are talking about ..then the telltale sign from my experiences, brain fog and migraine immediately start to set it in, but the words just keep on coming. I refer to this feeling as another part is jamming an ice pick of their thoughts thru me. Also sometimes referred it it as the ventriloquist act...or simply Oww! My Brains! It's down right icky. :yuck:

2nd thing that I have come to realize is that once a part begins to accept the outwardly reality of the body's born identity. We begin to watch how outsiders act and react as well. And the next step is fuzzy in the details of how it occurs, but while we do maintain our individual sense of agency..we try to blend in a bit I guess? Like whatever a part sees as "normal behavior" from outside and whatever knowledge if any they may be aware of 1or more inside parts outward behaviour and possibly even way of speaking..I guess for most of us likely from writing style?..and others like myself from some periods of co- conciousness..
...... sorry brain really not top notch at present...

My point being is that although we remain as autonomous as possible, we get used to responding to body's birth name and form our own ideas of how to TRY to appear as "normal" as possible esp. In public. Certainly not all parts accomplish this. Some better than others. But, for me at least I'm OK with us appearing kooky or just kind of off kilter..as long as we are able to contain our "full individualness" until at least behind closed doors!

I have heard very mixed reviews from many sources... some no clue that we are any different than any one else.. (with mental issues)...all of the way down the spectrum of who the hell are you? And what is wrong with that crazy girl?
Lucky for us...most people really seem to have a hard time grasping the idea of multiples..not generally worth trying to explain outside of those trusted...because, in the past I have made this mistake and the looks! Oh Boy! I might as well be trying to tell them that we are Martians!

also forgot to mention in my post that the link says DDNOS is now called OSDD

no it is not. here in america the dissociative disorder equivelent to DDNOS is UDD (Unspecified Dissociative Disorder and this disorder labeling is not a permanent label. its used as an emergency basis ie in the emergency room/ crisis situation then when the client\patent sees their regular treatment providers the treatment provider assesses them and relabels the client with an actual dissociative disorder or other mental disorder that now has dissociative symptoms included in it like depression or PTSD. using todays standards those now showing dissociative symptoms but can not meet the criteria for a dissociative symptom are now diagnosed with factious disorder imposed on self until the diagnostic evaluations can confirm they now fit in with an actual dissociative disorder in my links. not saying a person is faking and such, its just that here in america we have done away with the old diagnostic process in its place we have a new process where in order to be called a dissociative disorder a person now must fit the diagnostics for the dissociative disorder.

OSDD is a new mental disorder that has many different categories in it and some people who have previously been called DDNOS may get this disorder label but they must meet the criteria for it. how does this differ than DDNOS...

DDNOS having alters but they do not fit with DID or other dissociation disorders, having depersonalization symptoms but can not meet the diagnostics for depersonalization disorder, no dissociative amnesia, no derealization, no alters taking control like with DID

OSDD meeting the same diagnostics as DID with less then marked discontinuity, less memory problems, less alterations in identity, less than marked episodes of possession (possession in this sense is used in place of the word dissociative switching) no amnesia because they have total co consciousness, very little switching from one alter to another, in other words they still have everything that comes with DID just not as severe on the diagnostic evaluations to put it in terms that everyone can understand would be like DID may be a 10 on the severity scales and OSDD has the same problems just they dont hit a 10 on the severity scales they hit a 2 or a 3.

in my location a person with OSDD actually goes through the healing process at a faster rate then those with DID because of this difference in severity scores. example of what I mean by this is a person who has total co consciousness and awareness (no amnesia which is a diagnostic criteria for this disorder) does not have to go through the parts of the healing process of developing co consciousness\ communication\ sharing memories and such because they already have all that built in to their internal system of alters.

my point.... outside the USA this info is and may be very valid for what they consider to be these disorders but inside the USA again this can and does cause confusion and mis diagnosis. please be careful. if you feel you must do online researching try to locate the information that goes along with what ever your treatment providers are trying to do for and with you so that you dont end up doing more harm then good and possibly leading your treatment providers into believing you have a psychotic disorder rather than a dissociative disorder. especially if you are looking for a diagnosis of having a dissociative disorder. in my location I have seen many people research online and end up with more problems then ever. I would not want that to happen to any one here.

Why in the name of all that's holy would anyone ever be looking for a dissociative dx!

if you read past posts by members here in psych central you will find that each member has their own reasons why they are researching various mental disorders and feel that they may fit in with this or that disorder.

let me give you an example of something say you never knew a cough was a cough and what kind of cough it was, how would you tell your doctors that you have a special kind of cough without having the right words for it that a doctor would be able to understand.... you would go on medmd website and research all the different coughs then go to your doctors and tell them you have a dry hacking cough not a wet, deep cough. with those words a doctor can say ok this cough is a cold not a cough from smoking cigarettes.

my point many people research and look for dissociative disorders because it gives them a way to talk with their treatment providers, others dont have treatment providers so they have to research and narrow things down. also if someone say has one disorder vs another well that makes them feel less confused and the treatments are different they know what they need to do for that problem if they such and such of a problem.

Diagnostics schmockstics!

Back to the stated topic of shell alters... I am not convinced that this is something that is restricted to OSDD. I think I can exist within and alongside true DID and more classic switching as well. Although I see how that fits with the concept of OSDD. I guess a shell alter is like one body that wears different outfits (OSDD alters). One person goes into the changing room and comes out wearing a different outfit. Then they take off that outfit and put on another one. Whereas DID is more like having a bunch of different people who live in the cubicles in the changing room and come out one at a time. ( or sometimes two at a time eh !)

what is the difference between OSDD alters and DID alters?

i still am confused...and i guess i wouldn't 'technically' have a diagnosis of DID just because there is no taking over of my body (they don't live their own lives externally) but can influence things, try hard to come out at times when triggered/want to, and some have names, ages, and genders and their own specific ways of thinking, feeling, etc. that differ from each other (and me). there also aren't black outs (but time gets very distorted, and i forget things but not important things except from childhood, traumas and general things).

it all gets confusing. thankfully, my therapist doesn't treat me any different, but i still am confused because of all the wording. just when i think i understand things, i don't again.

dissociation full of suprises

I think the best way to approach it is to just go with what is. the diagnostic criteria are all a bit of a red herring. They are about something different to human experience... to your experience, or my experience. They are not the reality of anybody's life. They are simply words on paper, words on a screen.
I don't think it does anyone any good when we give words so much power. Who does it help when we say "Oh, if you use this word then you will get this diagnosis", or "if you use that word you will be called psychotic." Our experiences aren't about the words we use to describe them. It is neither appropriate nor helpful to define someone's pain by slapping this label or that label on them because of a word they chose in an effort to express their torment. What matters is the sense you make of your own experience for yourself. What matters is what is.
Not words.
Not labels.

I feel that is a very important statement.And I personally feel any qualified professional should be treating a client by what their experiences are,not by what a diagnosis says they are or says what their experiences are 'supposed' to be.

I also feel that with DID,pretty much anything goes.It's not the same as going to a dr with symptoms of bronchitis and the dr saying yep,it's bronchitis,you have all the symptoms.

Hey wow you all...just got back and thanks for the feedback. The article does go on to talk about the change from DDNOS to OSDD....but... they also state that this is never a DID thing.

Parts of me wants it to be true because...like it makes things any better. (:/)....

In our situation...we are co-con for sure...like the lights never go out which hides the time jumps...only if you look for them are they obvious, but goes mostly unawares...only when one is surprised to find it Friday again or it's payday again 2 weeks later...

We definetly have full alt switches here....but we are also under the influence of alts underneath the current of co-con living.

It's like when a new view, idea, thought, belief enters ones mind....we tend to evaluate and try to use our being as a "key" to fit the new keyhole. It only takes a while or two to fully comprehend the true intent of the idea to see exactly where and how it applies to us.....here we see it don't. It just doesn't feel right. To any of you all...I don't know but glad that I can bring it up.

It's like going against that gut feeling of truth (self denial) grasping at farfetched hopes.....like I only have a cold instead of the flu (you really have the flu)....

I savored the "shell" idea because it somewhat helped describe my weird desire to exactly explain ourselves....but now after the idea has been ingested...we don't even begin to live up to it's published specifications.

We don't have an upfront alter (puppet)...just this body. That says it all for me.

Thanks for all your inputs. We usually need to sleep on an idea or problem so we can discuss it before we wake up. Lol

I agree!!!

Oh yeah, fer sure. Everything else is just descriptors.

thanks. yes. this is true. i was just curious in a general way what the difference was regardless where i/we fit.

i am glad my therapist doesn't base things on labels...well, for insurance reasons, she does...and i'd never want to read my notes lol but overall, i like how she is towards me/us.

when i talk about the others, if i say something she feels is in any way negative about them, she reminds me that they all need/deserve to be respected, heard, etc. and have valid reasons to feel/think what/how they do even if i struggle with some of it. it kind of makes me feel like i'm getting lectured by mom about how to be nice to my sister lol, but i like that approach (she doesn't say anything in a mean/scary way). she tends to take things as they come up with me/us and has been really supportive.

to answer the question asked by finding my way... the difference in alters with DID and alters with OSDD...

in my link at the bottom of the post you will find this information, but as you can see you do not have to have alters to have OSDD.. here in america the one OSDD specifier where a person ....can or may... have alters is specifier number one. in simple terms what it means is that there is very little dissociative problems, very little identiy problems very little sense of self and agency problems. no amnesia
how does this translate to having alters. the OSDD alters do not take control, a person does not switch into these alters, they are totally co conscious so there is no need for alters to take control therefore no dissociative forgetfulness(amnesia)

a person with DID switches into being their alters, the alters take control and there is a dissociative memory problem called dissociative amnesia.

in other words OSDD specifier 1 is ...like... having DID but vastly different.

OSDD is only used when a treatment provider wants to tell the client why their mental disorder does not fit the other dissociative disorders in the american recognized dissociative disorders.

example if I felt I had alters but my alters did not take control and there was no memory loss not time loss and other symptoms that come with DID my treatment provider would have to say to me... amanda you have OSDD because your alters are not like DID they do not take control, you do not experience amnesia, 100 percent you are the one in control and though they may be there, and you may hear them and feel them and know what they are telling you to do in hard situations because of all this co consciousness and lack of switching you do not have DID you have OSDD.

here is what treatment providers go by in the USA now regarding OSDD other countries may have other standards.....

Other Specified Dissociative Disorder 300.15 (F44.89)

the DSM 5 states....

Bless your heart. In some cases...OSDD can be harder to treat (sorry) they say because there is no direct connection like DID.

With DID- there are 2 or more distinct states (ANP: apparently normal part (full blown presenting alters)) and any number of emotional states (EP: emotional parts that hold the traumatic memories).

With OSDD- there is one distinct state (you) and any number of EP's. (OSDD-1) and the rest of DD.

Like it all matters.....we all need healing.

well...going by all that stuff, i am more in between...so...maybe i just am my own category lol

in my location those with OSDD actually heal faster. the reason being they do not have to spend years working on things like learning how to communicate with the alters (they already can communicate with the alters) they dont have to spend years developing co consciousness and working together skills (they already have this built into their system) they dont have to spend years digging and uncovering trauma memories (since there is total co consciousness everyone knows what everyone else remembers)

statistically in my location those with OSDD heal with in about 2-5 years where as people with DID it takes between 15-30 years for total healing.

here in my location also some DID do not have ANP and EP systems. and in my location with OSDD since there is no switching (which results in no amnesia ) they do not have to have an apparently normal part or emotional part. the one the alter resides with in is always the one in control.

also a person here in the USA does not have to have a dissociative disorder to have an anp and an ep. I know many people who are bipolar, schizophrenia and other physical and mental health problems but no Dissociative disorders that have ANP and EP problems as do normal non mentally disordered people in my location.

my point not everyone ...has to have... what these articles on line are saying.

I am glad though that some can relate to the information and it can give them the comfort they may need in this confusing time of trying to figure out whats going on in ones body.

Wow...kewl

I've heard polyfragmented DID heals quick, too. I don't know...jest hearsay.