where to go from here

Well, ouch, that sounds like quite a way to damage a thumb! Hope he's doing better.

—>That makes sense about your boundary, does your H respect that when you say it? I feel like mine would be mean and bitter if I said something like that, but I guess I don't know until I try.<---

The way I approach it is that his feelings matter, but mine matter equally. Unfortunately, with the way he is, it can end at an impasse and be left unresolved. Yes, he does get mad at times because he's not always getting his way, but why is it only about what he needs and wants? It helps to keep in mind that the goal isn't to upset him (despite allegations he might make), the goal is to ensure my needs are also met in any mutual spaces. In an effort to keep things in a slow and calm place, I've learned to take as much time as needed to think through and articulate thoughts before speaking, and to also not have any emotional reactions, because that's just fuel to the fire with him as he is now.

Don't know if this might apply to you, but something that's helped in regards to potential arguments is understanding the karpman drama triangle. Understanding the way we tend to shift through those three roles helps avoid having pointless circular arguments that go nowhere. The concept of the karpman triangle was actually pretty tough for me to grasp for some reason, but once I could understand and recognize the patterns, it made it much easier to avoid getting sucked into unproductive arguments that are disguised as ‘discussions’. There have been times when I recognized that we were in the round and round dance of the triangle, so just backed off and started to mostly listen. You know what happened? He ran around the triangle all by himself- from one role to the next. That's a little odd to watch, but hits home just how compulsive the dynamic can be.

—>I told him this and I really do feel like communicating with him is like walking through a minefield because I never know what I say that will set him off. And, he is categorically incapable of having a disagreement without resorting to super childish behavior. Actually, not even a disagreement but some type of communication where I inadvertently push a button or have a misstep like normal human beings do. Imperfect communication from my end can cause him to have a meltdown and honestly sometimes it might be tone or me using the word "we" instead of "I" and things like that. I really do feel like I have become the place all of his anger goes to.<---

The problem isn't you. Adults should be able to talk to each other like adults, no matter if an inadvertent misstep occurs. Perhaps you're thinking and rethinking your words to make sure he might be comfortable with them? You may never pick the right words or choose the right side if he has a knack for misinterpreting for the sake of drama, or even just negativistic thinking. That's a bad place to be. Don't lose sight of the fact that your intentions are good, and HE is the one misinterpreting them. You *might* be able to kindly stand your ground and point that out to him in the moment, depending.

I like how you handled your Thanksgiving. It sounds like it was good for you, and good for the kids, and good for your H. It may not look like the ideal you would want to envision, but it works for now.

Thanksgiving was pretty good here. We got through it well enough

Hi, just thought I'd check in and see how things were going with you. For my part, I have just been so busy around here with end of school things x3 and work that I haven't had time to even think about anything else which can be good and bad I suppose. Although, we always do Christmas with my husbands family so I am about to have a lot of "quality time" that I am certainly not looking forward to even a little.


I'm glad your Thanksgiving went well, and hopefully the holidays with your family isn't too stressful either.

Honestly, we've been towing the "status quo" line around here, which always makes me sad/mad to some extent as like why my husband can't be how he used to be, or what I want, but on the other hand provides stability for the kids and is decent enough that I don't want to actively escape it. I suppose that is a low bar. I was talking to a friend who has a husband similar to mine and we both plainly said to each other that we certainly would not be married anymore to our husbands if we didn't have kids. Her parents had this kind of wonderful love until her dad passed, and my parents don't have that sort of thing but they definitely still enjoy spending time together, and I do think both of those situations are unfortunately more unique than not.


I do think as time goes on I have shifted from this sort of panic and despair of my H is going to actively leave us to this frustration and low level anger at him for not dealing with his own issues ever and how it has effected our lives. I think that is probably normal. Anyway, just thought I'd check in now that I have a second to breathe. I hope you are having a wonderful week and things are looking good for you!

Hey again.

Don't worry too much about posting here. If you're well focused on your own stuff, and H is secondary, that's a good thing. That's the place to be- living your own life and not being overly concerned with him.

Sending a lot of prayers and positive thoughts your way for the rest of the holidays. They're especially hard because you're trying to consider other people's feelings to a higher degree, but still need your own needs met. Holidays are stressful under the best of circumstances!

—>I do think as time goes on I have shifted from this sort of panic and despair of my H is going to actively leave us to this frustration and low level anger at him for not dealing with his own issues ever and how it has effected our lives. I think that is probably normal.<---

From my own experience, and from talking/observing others, it seems like it's almost a waking up process where you go through stages of seeing things more clearly and deciding which direction you need to go. So yeah, it does seem like you are processing things in a rather normal way.

All the other things you said resonate too. Maybe it's a bit like one of those pro and con columns, and right now the pros outweigh the cons for you. That's okay, because it's overall the best choice for you today. Don't forget that you're entitled to choose and change your mind at any given moment. There can be a lot of freedom in just remembering that.

But the sadness, I get that too. Right now H is a depressed Grinch and seems to be trying to drag everyone down for the holidays. It's so predictable at this point, that it's not having much effect on the rest of us. We're still decorating, baking cookies, watching Christmas movies, going to look at lights, having fun, all that stuff in spite of where he is mentally. For me, that's the goal- to detach to the point that I can have compassion for H (and allow his disorders to stay in his space), but find a way to live life in a proactive and rewarding way. Maybe this was said before, but all marriages eventually end one way or another; right now I'm doing my best to become the me I need to be- and whether he's around or not is actually rather irrelevant to that. I definitely wish it were something different, but… it's not.

You're doing a very good job of managing the things that are yours to manage, and not straying outside of your lane. In time something will change, whether it's you, or him, or the circumstances around you. Actually, things ARE changing, but it's a slow and steady process that you may not always have a strong awareness of. It's that dynamic where you won't see it a week or month from now, but a year from now, you'll realize how far you've come on a personal level. In the meantime, find ways to take care of yourself and give yourself the things you need and deserve.

(((Hugs)))

Kimmy' neighbor: "You can't keep running into a brick wall."
Kimmy: "Shows what you know. Sorry, giving up isn't my jam. My jams are grape, Jock, and Space."
Titus: "Hashtag respectmyjourney."
~ Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt

Take it from someone who truly understands what you are saying and feeling. My T just literally talked me off the ledge a couple of nights ago. Life turns on a dime. It CAN get better! Give tomorrow a chance. And the day after tomorrow... I had two wonderful surprises today, and I wouldn't have been able to experience them if I'd made a different choice the other night. Keep going.

@ ArmorPlate108, Don't worry, I definitely don't "worry" about posting on here but it still feels like my "safe" place to share how I am feeling. As an aside, I do want to thank you again for all your help. As 2023 comes to a close, it certainly was a year full of trials for me personally and I can definitely tell you that you helped me so much in my most dark times and I hope you know how much I appreciate that!

I feel like I have entered into a new process where I am teaching my husband how to communicate. It feels almost like sleep training a toddler. As I think I have discussed with you before, every time he communicates with me about something that has upset him, he goes directly into name calling, a disdainful tone and personal insults. My new response has been to tell him every time that even though he can act however he wants, if he wants to have a conversation with me, my boundary is that it needs to be respectful and that it is sad he cannot express feelings or things he doesn't like without being insulting. Then, I just have to reinforce that every time. But he really is incapable of this. From talking to friends, I know he isn't the only man like this but it is really crazy. Tonight, he went into the garage with his keys in his hands during bedtime for our children and I asked him if he was going somewhere. That turned into a conversation where he told me I can't have an expectation to know what he is doing every minute of every day and he doesn't need my permission to do anything. It is so crazy it is almost funny. And I know a lot of this is directly related to an increase in time with his family and all of its faults. But anyway, that is my new plan. We'll see if it works. I suspect sleep training a toddler is probably much easier.


It is very nice to hear that you and your family manage to do the holidays well notwithstanding the Grinch living with you. It is a very hopeful and happy thing to be able to make things your own and not be dependent on other for your own happiness. I am hopefully getting there too. I also like the thought that all marriages end one way or another. That is comforting to me somehow. Anyways, I will keep this short and wish you a happy new year! Are you into making new years resolutions? I am not into it but I am into reflecting on the past year and I do know that even though it was tough I am so much stronger coming through all of this and I am glad for that shift from despair to strength.

That's great that you feel like this is a good, safe place to vent or talk about what you're working through.

Your words are very kind. I appreciate them more than I can say. At times, it feels like I'm stuck in place, spinning my wheels. To know that I've helped someone else feels pretty darn good.

Your H sounds much like mine during the holidays. People like H don't tolerate holidays well. In fact, ruining holidays is one of the things they do best.

You are so right that at times it's so bad it could almost be funny.

Did you feel like your H did that thing with the car keys solely in an attempt to get a rise out of you?

In the past, my H has packed suitcases as a means of escalation/baiting. Sometimes if he's not getting attention, he'll randomly start messing around with a suitcase, seemingly in an effort to trigger me. Last time he did that was on my birthday. (Surprise… a special occasion that's not about him.) I just walked into the room and casually asked him if he needed any help packing. He hasn't pulled that stunt since.

We've been in that similar territory for the last week though, with H doing various little things in a seeming attempt to set off an emotional bomb. It started with baiting and devaluation, moved on to false accusations/projection, and when all that didn't work, he began drinking alcohol openly for the first time in a couple of years. Ah, the holidays! It's having very little effect on me at this point, because I can see it for what it is- attention getting attempts by an unwell person. It's not me, it's him. About the most I'm feeling right now is pity, as well as a degree of sadness for him.

BTW- alcohol consumption in general isn't offensive to me. Given H’s health and neurological problems, alcohol isn't a great choice for him, and he supposedly gave up drinking after failing a neuro exam a few years ago. Later he admitted he was still drinking when he was away from home (on travel or with family), and given shifting behaviors at home, I figured he was still drinking on the downlow at times. So in all, going back to drinking openly isn't much of a shocker. It's his choice, his health- out of my lane. It's probably more shocking to him that I'm not invested in the choices he's making.

People wonder what I'm still doing here… there are very good reasons, but there are days I wonder that very same thing….

Best of luck with the training plan. Boundaries…. If he's being asinine for the sake of being asinine, you'll see that soon enough. Something I learned not too long back about borderline personality and the like, is that when they get to the point of name calling and insults, their brain may be beyond the point of rational reason. Sometimes the only effective boundary is just walking away

Don't make the mistake that I did either, which was not recognizing that negative attention is still better than no attention for disordered people. I wasted more time than I care to admit trying to talk to, and help, him- never with a satisfactory outcome. Later, it became clearer that his main interest in the interaction was that it kept the focus on him. He didn't care if things got better, it was more about maintaining being the center of attention (i.e. control), even if it was in a negative light.

You are probably very right that these types of maladaptive behaviors aren't as unusual as we'd like to think.

It's funny you asked about resolutions, because I was thinking about something related that might possibly be of interest to you:

About a year ago, I came upon an article about creating order in your life. It's about priorities. You walk through a few steps to identify what your priorities are. A key takeaway is that your priorities have nothing to do with dreams or goals, they're literally what your priorities need to be at this moment in time. I have to admit that when I did it, it was a little surprising to realize that H was nowhere on the list. The short list of priorities you end up with becomes the basis for all decisions you make.

A year on, those priorities have become second nature, which feels like pretty good growth in the right direction. I'm getting ready to redo the list and shift to new priorities, and hopefully more growth. I don't know where any of this mess is going, but for now I'm blooming where I'm planted, ya know?

You are tough, and you are strong. You are moving in the right direction. Keep moving in a positive direction for yourself and you'll eventually end up where you need to be

Happy New Year to you! May 2024 be a good one for you!

Here's that article if your interested:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20141...r-in-your-life

Happy new year! I hope that you had a good one! You are too right, I think they almost relish ruining the holidays. I am not sure if my H did that to get a rise out of me or not. I think that the honest truth for my H is that he has a very very different world view than me and one in which his starring role is a victim. And that role is relative to everyone, whether it is his parents, me, his workplace issues and/or life in general. My H can be very spiteful but I tend to guess his stuff is mainly out of self focus to the exclusion of his surroundings which he has gotten very accustomed to.


That is very tricky when they try to get attention and especially in a negative way, i.e. drinking alcohol for the first time. It is good that you have learned to recognize those behaviors for what they are as I think that tends to help a lot. I am definitely still working on that piece. That is very good advice about negative attention being a draw, it is so hard to avoid falling into a trap.

I am definitely going to read that article so thank you for passing it along. I have an appointment with my therapist this coming week so one of the topics I have been thinking about is how to reconcile my H's strong words to me about ending our marriage vs. what is happening now that he is moving in the right direction out of his depression episode. It is not only that he doesn't intend to "follow through" on leaving, it is that I feel at a loss without him giving me some announcement or reassurance that he doesn't mean that now, if that is even true. I don't know. My therapist and I have discussed that one of my "core" issues that I bring to a relationship having to do with my mother is I need people to apologize and admit mistakes when they make them which is something my mother struggled and struggles with and never did. I feel like I need some acknowledgement from him about the havoc he wreaked but I also don't really want to rock the boat because he is doing better overall. This is a very slippery slope.


Have you struggled a lot with this back and forth with your H? I find it a very confusing place but it does help me to remember that my H says a whole host of things he doesn't mean. We also got into a discussion recently about some things that happened back in 2018 when I was really struggling after the birth of our daughter that we have rehashed countless times in our first round of couples therapy and he still hasn't let go of. He has this way of holding onto every little mistake I have ever made which puts me into a very hard position. I sort of have the opposite mindset to a fault where I tend to just completely forget stuff like that - maybe it is the trauma? I don't know. It is very difficult to hear him talk about these things as if they are currently happening today. I think its part of whatever issues he has going on but the inability to let go of anything is a hard burden to carry and it certainly hurts our relationship.


Thank you as always for your sage advice. I will definitely check back in after I read the article, I always think evaluating priorities is a good thing!

Happy New Year to you as well. I hope that 2024 ends up being a positive one.

You're very insightful about your H seemingly seeking to be in the victim role, and it's good you recognize that it's not exclusive to you. It's a “him” problem. But dealing with the chronic victim mentality isn't always easy. It's important to not get sucked into his victim drama. If you do, you'll find yourself in one of those pointless, circular conversations that never accomplishes anything. Engaging a victim mentality can be a huge time waster.

It is hard to not fall into the trap of giving attention to negative behaviors too. We should be able to discuss and solve problems with our spouses, and end up on the same page together. But that's not always how it works out. Once you see it for what it actually is, and can see that he's benefitting from dysfunctional behavior and response in some way, it is a bit easier to disengage and let the chips fall where they may.

I'd be interested in what advice the therapist might have had for you in regards to your need for apologies and accountability - that doesn't sound unreasonable. You can't fix what can't be acknowledged, and trust is a fragile thing. If someone won't apologize, or be accountable, or make amends for something they've done, how can you actually rebuild trust? In my mind, it might not be possible. Maybe the therapist had other thoughts?

—>Have you struggled a lot with this back and forth with your H?<---

This isn't so much a problem here. My H seems to have some cognitive issues, so he'll either forget events quickly, or confabulate/make false accusations if it suits his needs. Either way, there's no consistency of truth to work with, so it tends to get pushed aside and there's no real solution- and frankly, he doesn't seem as interested in solutions as he is problems. Detach…

It seems like you're expected to take responsibility for your past actions to maybe a higher degree than he does. This isn't blame shifting, and putting the focus onto you, so he doesn't have to be as accountable for his own transgressions, is it? If you're expected to answer and be accountable for those things you did, then he needs to step up and do the same, doesn't he? Does he meet you halfway on those?

How did the holidays turn out for you? Did you feel like you got through them in a way that worked for you, or felt like you were attending to your own needs as well?

I did what was right for me and DD, but fear there were expectations that went unsaid and I'm going to be expected to pay the piper for it later. So be it, it wasn't my responsibility to read minds...

You are right, it definitely is not easy. I have been thinking a lot about this especially after I met with my therapist because I am asking myself a lot lately, "what now". There's no immediate crisis like there was but I am not happy with my relationship. Back when we did marriage counseling together working "for" our marriage six or seven years ago, a lot of what she told us is you sort of treat the other nicely and then things fall into place. Except, that is really hard! We had a trip this past weekend to a family event for his family and I knew that would cause him to act a certain way, which it did, but even being prepared for it didn't prevent me feeling poorly when he takes all of those feeling out on me and everyone around him. His concept of "common courtesy" goes out the window and it is honestly a little embarrassing for me, even when it is only his own family we are dealing with. I do think, unlike years past, that I have taken all of it in stride and I haven't said anything or mentioned anything. I might have to eventually because a lot of these issues involve my family as he has pent up anger that he directs towards my mother and my parents were also around last weekend. Then, we do things like family vacations my parents take us on that I dread because of the dynamic between he and my mother. Our old couples counselor told us that if we are dealing with our own family we get to the be the one to set the boundaries but he won't abide by those rules when it comes to my family. So, if he broaches a topic to be a jerk and I ask him to stop he just draws more attention to it. This is the kind of thing that drives me crazy and I will have to talk to him about it eventually but I'd like to discuss with my therapist next week the best way how to do so. I know its about him but it is hard for me to understand why he doesn't care if what he is saying or doing is making me super uncomfortable and of course alcohol consumption by him does not help at all in these situations.


The bad thing is my kids have picked up on it, especially my oldest as he is 10. Even though he (like I suspect his father also) has high functioning autism he certainly understood something was off with his father and the way he was treating me. Then, on the one hand that makes me sad but on the other hand I am glad he can make his own observations. One of my fears is that my children will be stuck in a relationship like mine so it is a tightrope trying to hope they don't but I am the one staying in it. Do you ever feel that way?

My therapist basically thinks my husband needs to do EMDR therapy. She says that memories and trauma gets "stuck" and that is part of why he can't move on and she thinks that would really help him. The counselor we saw together over the summer and fall said the exact same thing. Of course, I am sure he won't because if he could feel better and "grow up" and move on, his OCD comes into play and he thinks something bad will happen to his parents and it will be his fault. It is a big mess! Basically my therapist was like think about what you need to be happy and remember you aren't being unreasonable.


Yes, I do feel like the holidays turned out well so I am happy for that. His birthday is coming up at the end of this month so I expect another crisis shortly.


I am so glad you were able to do what was right for you and your DD, did you end up paying for it later? I hope not! None of us are mind readers! Hope you are having a great week!

I'm so sorry I haven't yet responded to you. Hope that you are doing well and maybe got some good advice from your therapist.

The last two weeks have been hectic here, and it feels a little like I'm running on fumes- definitely don't have a long, thought-out post in me at the moment.

I'll respond as soon as possible, but reading your latest post. I kept nodding and agreeing with what you wrote. There's lots that's relateable there.

Sorry about how long it's been. The last few weeks have been hectic. To top it off, H moved into one of his predictable, annual hypomanic episodes. That's been a little tiring, but this round has been different because I’ve gotten better at staying in my own lane, disengaging, and not trying to fix anything - it definitely changes the experience. He may or may not be aware of how he is, but history shows I can do nothing productive in regards to helping him understand. It's nowhere near the wasted time and energy it has been in the past. There's definitely merit to focusing on your own life- which isn't synonymous with neglecting anyone or anything.

Reading through your post, I kept nodding and agreeing. So much of it is familiar.

→ I met with my therapist because I am asking myself a lot lately, "what now". There's no immediate crisis like there was but I am not happy with my relationship.<---

That's the million dollar question, isn't it? What now? Maybe the questions become more and more about “what now” for you and you alone- like your therapist said. Start rebuilding your life in a direction you like, and let H decide at some point if he wants to make the effort to join you or not. It'll naturally evolve to somewhere else over time.

Unfortunately with many disordered people they've learned to control and manipulate in a long-game kind of way. You aren't going to change your response or reaction once -or even a couple dozen times- and get a new response from him. The only point at which he may come around is when he eventually realizes that you've made a permanent change about how you're living your life, then he may try to change his behavior for fear he'll lose you.

It almost sounds like the way your H behaves around your family is passive aggressive. He must know he's behaving inappropriately, but he continues to do it anyway . He may actually like it if you're trying to address it with him and correct his behavior. It gives him a lot of control in making you uncomfortable and putting you in that position of giving him that level of attention.

You're not responsible for his behavior. It might be okay for you to tactfully call him out on it in front of your family. If he gets going on a subject that’s problematic, you could openly say, without emotion, something like, “My preference is that we not talk about politics(or whatever) here.” Then you've said your piece nicely, and your family will know that you don't condone his behavior. Of course then it depends if there's someone else there who's going to egg it on.

“Preference” is a magic word, btw. Josh Milburn of The Minimalists talks a bit about using this kind of language to make your position known, without overstepping boundaries. You get to make your preference known and then it's up to him if he chooses to disrespect it.

But I'm a terrible one to give advice on that, because I'd often rather just avoid the get together, or whatever, rather than wonder/worry about what's going to end up happening.

Yes, I worry a lot about DD ending up in a dysfunctional relationship. She's older, so we talk a little more openly about what's okay in relationships, and what's not. It's not generally correlated with what happens/has happened here, but if it syncs up, and she sees the overlap, then that's that. My H definitely acts like he's mentally ill/compromised at times, so her frame of reference is that it's pretty clear there's something wrong with him. She recognizes (in part because I say it) that his problems are not hers to deal with or accommodate at the expense of herself. Since he has poor boundaries, teaching her to have strong boundaries is essential.

Yep, if he's going to see the need, and get something like EMDR eventually, he's going to have to get to that place on his own. It's awful that you can see the potential and that you want to help, but it's all in vain. The only person who can help him is him. Set yourself free of that obligation.

With my H, I've gotten to a point where I say something like, “If you need help with anything, let me know.” I offer no specific help nor go out of my way without being asked (nicely), and I don't do things for him that he needs to do for himself.

I hope and pray that things have been going well for you recently. I've been thinking about you a lot even though the complex thoughts weren't flowing. This one got long, so maybe I (unfortunately) made up for it

I am so sorry the last few weeks have been hectic and rough for you. I am hoping things are calming down. But, I am glad to hear that you are doing what you can do to help yourself while these hard times are happening. Sometimes it is hard (at least for me) to remember that we have the power not to get involved in whatever issues they have going on. I'm so happy you were able to focus on yourself and what was going on with you.


My H has been very difficult lately. He is drinking excessively which always makes him super depressed and irritable and messes with the medicine he takes. For the most part because of that set up, I had to confront my H yesterday over how he was acting and it was difficult but went as expected. I think when he's having his own issues I can let it be but my therapist has been insistent that when my H pushes the boundaries of what I consider to be appropriate behavior that I call him on it. There's this way of engaging with me he has that is just unacceptable. For example, yesterday we were at my parents house for the Superbowl and I asked him three or four times if he was ready to leave and he said yes. So then I gathered the kids and we got in the elevator and he wasn't there. I went to see what was going on and he was putting his shoes on. I probably said something like "are you ready" and he started screaming obscenities at me. This was after on the way there he screamed at the kids and made one of them cry for essentially something that was a minor deal that should have been easily dealt with. The ironic thing is that he apologized to the kids for screaming at them later, which is a good thing, but he did not apologize to me.


According to him, it was "distressing" to be left behind and that's why he screamed at me. He will acknowledge that: (1) he shouldn't talk to me like that and (2) I am justified in feeling fed up with the behavior because inevitably I will tell him it is unacceptable to speak to me like that and he will agree with me but then nothing changes. At that point I also told him some of the inappropriate things he said a few weeks ago when he was drinking which he didn't even remember saying. I told him I thought his drinking was extremely self-destructive and that I felt very unhappy with that and our relationship in general. I don't know if you recall but I was hesitant to bring that back up, but here we are. Anyway, the upshot is that he has good insight into his behavior and will acknowledge it but takes the stance that he really can't do anything about it. He also told me that he feels that I don't prioritize him. I feel like that is a trap? I just said to him that last I heard he was "ambivalent" about our marriage. So, if he becomes un-ambivalent to let me know and if at that time I also want to work on our marriage we can. But until then, I am not going to be prioritizing him or following his instructions on how to delicately deal with him at all times.


I don't know about you but sometimes I feel like I live in a different universe than my H. He mentioned he is an active and engaged father and I think that is far from the truth. Oh well. He left for out of town today and I was relieved. He really sucks the happiness right out of my life right now and like we always discuss, if circumstances were different (i.e. financial situation and kids) I would have been out of here a long time ago. My therapist asked me the other week if I still loved my H and I told her that was a rabbit hole I was not ready to go down. I know I used to love the different person I am with, and I know this version of him I can't stand, so I don't know what that says.


I am really glad to hear about how you've spoken to your DD and hopefully that lays the groundwork for a healthy relationship when she grows up. I did make sure to tell my kids after their father yelled at them that everyone, even parents make mistakes, and that was not the right way to handle things. I just worry they will be traumatized, I did not grow up like that with parents that screamed, cussed, left etc. so I'm not sure but I do feel like it has to leave a mark on them.


Thanks as always for listening. This response is very long too, and I love reading your responses and advice, it is always so helpful.

It sounds like you did well with the boundaries. It needed to be done. The behavior of his, that you described, was overt and inappropriate. The directness you used to confront it sounds very controlled and on topic. You should be proud of yourself, even if you aren't sure it accomplished much with him. Hopefully you have a sense of taking care of yourself, and your needs, in those moments.

It's the covert, passive aggressive stuff that may not be worth confronting- because too often it's easy for them to play dumb or say it wasn't intentional, you know?

But, yeah, if the behavior is the kind that can be addressed directly, and you feel safe and comfortable doing it, you should, if only for your own empowerment.

Someone here on the boards has said that if you're having any discussions about alcohol and its impact on the household, then alcohol is a problem. Even if the person doesn't fit what might be considered an alcoholic, the alcohol use can still present real and serious problems for a family.

I don't think my H would qualify as an alcoholic by any common standard, but when he does use alcohol, it's generally for the wrong reasons (stress & anxiety) and it changes his attention and focus to a place where he's relatively disconnected. FWIW, my H is often easier to get along with when he's drinking, but that doesn't make it good for him, his health, or his relationships. He's often not ‘all there’ when he's NOT drinking, so drinking makes him even less so.

What DD picks up on in regards to his alcohol use is sometimes surprising. She's aware of it as a mood altering substance where he's concerned, and that used as such, he's not dealing with his problems in a healthy way. She's openly disgusted by it at this point, and it's not that he gets drunk, or acts out , or anything of that nature, it's just that she has the concept that it's counter to his health and wellness- and that makes it hard to feel respect for him. Kids see it, they pick up on things that even adults don't always cue into. Even if your kids aren't old enough to see the pattern now, there's a chance that they will as they get older- particularly if, like DD, they get some health education at school about signs and symptoms of substance use and abuse.

Have you ever mentioned to him if you think the drinking has an impact on the kids?

It's not surprising that he didn't apologize to you, but did apologize to the kids. It could be a form of devaluation of you- they are worthy enough of an apology, but you are not. But it could also be deep shame on his part, since you're acting the mature adult, and that's a hard opponent for him to face. Either way, remember it's his dysfunction talking and acting out, it's not you, even though it hurts to be treated that way.

—>I will tell him it is unacceptable to speak to me like that and he will agree with me but then nothing change←-

Do you think maybe the only way he'll change is if there's a consequence he really doesn't like associated with not changing? Boundaries generally work better when there are repercussions from not respecting them. Maybe you're already using some?

—>I don't know if you recall but I was hesitant to bring that back up, but here we are. Anyway, the upshot is that he has good insight into his behavior and will acknowledge it but takes the stance that he really can't do anything about it. He also told me that he feels that I don't prioritize him. I feel like that is a trap?<---

But here we are… if you keep finding yourself back in the same place, the loop might be one that he feels comfortable with, and steers things back to time and again (whether intentional or not). Sometimes old arguments are like comfort food, especially to disordered people. Are you ever able to catch it when a topic first starts heading down one of these old paths? Unfortunately, for those of us on the side of trying to help and fix things, we can also get stuck in a loop- ‘maybe this time will be the time we get through to them?’

If you don't want to do the same thing over, unfortunately you're going to have you be the person who tries something new. My idea would be to disengage the moment you realize that he's got you on an old, unproductive path. Not that you turn your back on him, but rather you step back from the emotional engagement of the moment, and make a gentle, nonjudgmental observation/suggestion such as ‘only you can make that change for you. I can't make it for you.’- and then you go take care of yourself.

—> He mentioned he is an active and engaged father and I think that is far from the truth.<---

It's hard to tell if they are trying to convince you or themselves. This is very much a ‘reap what you sow’ situation though. Natural consequences eventually take their course, and as sad as it may be, the choices he's making today may mean that the kids never really develop a genuine, in depth relationship with him- but is he honestly capable of that at this point?

—>He really sucks the happiness right out of my life right now and like we always discuss, if circumstances were different (i.e. financial situation and kids) I would have been out of here a long time ago.<---

You're not alone in this tough situation. Do you do much self-care? With a few kids and work, it's probably not easy to find the time and space for that. It sounds like you need it though. In codependency work, they say when you find yourself focusing on the other (disordered) person, that's a sign that you need to stop thinking about them and what they want/need, and to start thinking about yourself and what you want/need. It's not always easy! Sometimes you have to unlearn an old habit, and subsequently learn a new new one.

—>I know I used to love the different person I am with, and I know this version of him I can't stand, so I don't know what that says. ←-

I'm so sorry. There's just not much to say to that. Even if you do feel stuck for the time being, you can still grow, tend to yourself, and find happiness. It can be tough to learn to do that within a restrictive situation, and it may even be hard to give yourself permission to do just that, but it is possible.

Things are busy here still, but I feel like I've gotten my feet back under me for the moment. As we say around here. "if it's not weird, you're not here." Just have to accept it for now and keep doing my thing

Here's a ((((hug)))) for you. Just keep swimming.

But, yeah, if the behavior is the kind that can be addressed directly, and you feel safe and comfortable doing it, you should, if only for your own empowerment.


I think for me this is the key point. When he is overly blowing up at me and cussing I need to call him on it. It has happened once since last week when I saw my therapist and she gave me some tips. She said to ask him how he thinks it makes me feel when says that and when he says "bad" or "sad" I am supposed to ask him does he want me to feel that way. I think the point is to try and get him away from the sole focus of himself and onto what his behavior does to those around him. It did work somewhat because he admitted when I did ask him that the reason he was saying those things or snapping at me is because he was embarrassed about something. So I think that is probably a good technique. Just another reason why I like my therapist so much because she always has action plans for me.


Have you ever mentioned to him if you think the drinking has an impact on the kids?


I think it is helpful for me to hear what your DD has picked up on about drinking. I do think that watching parents go through Ultimately, for my H it is an unhealthy coping mechanism and I hope he stops. I am glad that it is at least not happening unless he is out of the house so at least my kids don't really have to see him impaired very much because that can be hard. My oldest who is 10 has picked up on it some and he likes to ask his dad if he's going to go "pop some champagne bottles" lol that at least adds some levity to the situation.



Do you think maybe the only way he'll change is if there's a consequence he really doesn't like associated with not changing? Boundaries generally work better when there are repercussions from not respecting them. Maybe you're already using some?


Yes, this I am trying to do. I will not engage in a conversation with him when he is cussing at me or screaming. I also think, to the extent possible, it is important to call him out in the moment. I can work on being more firm in those boundaries but honestly this one is not that hard for me because I really do hate the behavior that much and it has a profound impact on me, I just cannot have it, be involved in it, or be around it. For me personally, I would never and have never spoken to anyone like that in my life, including him, so my boundary on that is a firm one and nonnegotiable. And he really doesn't try and say it is okay when he acts like that as he knows its not. I also reiterate to him the correct verbiage, like instead of cussing at me, say "I don't like that" or "I am embarrassed", I do think that helps to to give him the words to say in place of those especially because he never has had that healthy communication so he may need leading to some extent.


The choices he's making today may mean that the kids never really develop a genuine, in depth relationship with him- but is he honestly capable of that at this point?

You are right on with this observation too, I don't think right now he is capable of that. He just as to get himself together first. And honestly, I am okay with that to the extent it is not destructive to me or the kids and that's when I have to be really firm about the boundaries.


So, last week was Valentine's Day which even in the best of times we never really celebrated as I don't put much stock in it but I do always like cards. And he did (when he got back into town) give me a nice card from the kids and one from him as well. Although, I found myself questioning what he was saying in the card since he told me what he had written to me in cards earlier in our relationship was just "what he wanted to believe" and not how he felt or something. I don't know, I guess I will take it but not put much stock into it just like most everything else he says about me or his own feelings since they are so subject to change and so ambivalent.


I do try to do self-care but it is hard. I have a nice group of friends and a few hobbies so I try to focus on that and myself as best I can. I think this is hard work for me in general because notwithstanding all of the issues with my H, I tend to put myself absolutely last. Every year my new years resolution is to say "no" more but then I end up not doing it. I know that I do a better job focusing on myself now then I have in the past so I guess I am trending in the right direction slowly but surely.

Btw, that saying "if it's not weird, you're not here", I love that and also so applicable to my life at all times. I hope this week has been a quiet one for you and you have accomplished all that you want to!

I've got to say that, reading your last post, it stands out just how far you've come in not really very long.

You seem like you've gained a lot of personal power, learned to enforce stronger boundaries, and separated yourself from his problems to a large extent. Do you feel like you've come a noticeable distance in your own growth? I hope it seems that way to you. Even if you're not where you'd ultimately like to be, you are moving in a positive direction.

Imagine where you might be in another few months or a year?

That's a smart technique of asking your H how he thinks you feel. It shifts the focus off him, and forces him to acknowledge that you're a person experiencing the relationship too. Even if he can't focus on your feelings at this point, it's a good way to make sure that your feelings don't get lost in the mess.

That is pretty funny what your son says about popping champagne bottles. It almost seems like calling H out on what he does- whether your son means to or not. How do you think your son feels about H’s drinking? Does he recognize the negative changes in dad when he drinks?

When DD was younger, I think she felt like alcohol was a weird fixation for H and his family (it was always a major topic of conversation when they got together). A little education can go a long way, hopefully. DD needs a healthier barometer about alcohol usage than what she can get from observing the way H and his family interact with it.

Anyway, back to those boundaries. It sounds like the things you say to him, when he's out of line, are direct and appropriate to the situation. Do you feel like you do a good job of remaining control of the situation? It sounds like you do, but I'm guessing (from personal experience) that it's not always as easy as that. My H is so good at turning the conversation in a different direction, and tending to blame shift, that it took quite a while to learn to keep the conversation on the original topic. Each time he veres off in another direction, rather than follow him down that road, I've learned to steer the topic back on track— but it's such a compulsion for him at times, that it can be difficult to catch every time he strays off topic. Is that an issue for you as well?

—>I found myself questioning what he was saying in the card since he told me what he had written to me in cards earlier in our relationship was just "what he wanted to believe" and not how he felt or something. I don't know, I guess I will take it but not put much stock into it just like most everything else he says about me or his own feelings since they are so subject to change and so ambivalent. ←-

Perhaps he's like a lot of disordered people in that however he feels in the moment is the be all and end all. So if you're on his good side, you're going to get the good words, if you're currently on his bad side, you get the bad. You're getting someone who can't center his own self, and as a result blows hot and cold. Maybe don't put too much stock in either thing at this point?

Get the self care when and where you can I've learned to think on a different scale- though do the hobbies and take the time with friends, when that's an option. I was reading some Deepak Chopra stuff a while back, and there was quite a bit about meditating, nutrition (which doesn't mean a diet overhaul), self massage, and other things that constitute self care. There are a lot of little things we can do for ourselves throughout the day that don't require a lot of time, energy, or money- but they focus on us and our well being. For me right now, self care has been decluttering and streamlining the spaces that I'm responsible for- this is something I want that improves my quality of life. But like you indicated is the tendency, I let that slip for a long time because it was too much trouble, or not as important as other things “I should” be doing. It does get a bit easier as kids get older and more self-sufficient But never, never underestimate how important your own needs and wants might be- it doesn't make you selfish to honor yourself.

As for here, H looks like he's started to shift away from the hypomania, and back to a more depressive state. If so, then it's right on cue. It's still a little frustrating to be able to predict it, and be told (by both H and his providers) that my observations are incorrect and irrelevant- but there we are. Its pointless to focus on that though, just need to keep on living my life… which isn't necessarily a bad thing

Hope that you're doing well this week and moving in that forward direction, no matter how fast or slow that is.

Oh gosh, that is so good to hear even though it doesn't feel like it in the moment I think that if I look at everything from where I was even a year ago before my H dropped that big bomb, I can see that I have really grown a lot especially in purposefully enforcing boundaries. It does feel like I have come a long way.

I think my son thinks it is more funny now, he hasn't really seen too much of the drinking, more the after effects, which honestly I am thankful for. I like what you are saying about education going a long way because it makes me feel like all these things might not effect my kids as much as I fear or that I have some power and control in the situation which is always a good thing.

I do feel like I do a very good job of calling my H when he is out of line and if he doesn't stop, leaving the situation. I would maybe even say I verge on the "over sensitive" towards this even though that is not a bad thing. I have been very clear to him on what crosses the line with me so when he chooses to cross it I enforce the boundary. In fact, we had one of these last night that I specifically came here to get your opinion on.

My therapist last time said that my H is trying somewhat to "reconnect" with me based on some stories I was telling her about how he was saying to me that "we never do anything together" and how important it is to him that we watch tv together at night. I felt I was not really ready for those things and my therapist said I was protecting myself. Anyway, last night I got into a conversation with H about these things because he will profess to want to watch tv together and that it is super important to him but the environment he creates is so toxic and I was basically calling him out on that and saying if it is so important to him why wouldn't he create an environment that is comfortable for me. Anyway, it came up again from him that we "never do anything together". And I said to him do you remember last year when you said you wanted to get divorced and leave? And his answer was "vaguely". I was very taken aback by that. I can't tell if he was so depressed he can't really remember what happened, sort of like an "episode" or if he was just deflecting. So anyway, I said to him do you remember as part of that I said I wanted to spend more time together and I suggested several things and you were not interested in any. Again, he claimed he did not remember any of this but said he wanted to start taking walks together or something like that.

I see my therapist next week and I want to get her opinion on this because I find it mind boggling. It feels like a trick almost. So I don't really know what to do with that except if he is treating me respectfully and I want to I will spend time with him and if he isn't I won't. I was thinking about how you mention that your H's moods are cyclical and that makes me apprehensive about the upcoming summer because whenever my H has had a major episode it is always in the summer. I know what you are saying it is frustrating to predict it, but even more that no one acknowledges that. I think it is clear you have a lot of insight into you H's behavior so it is strange to me that medical providers and your H won't take you seriously.


I hope you are having a wonderful week, happy spring! Hopefully things are going well on your end and as always thanks so much for listening, I really value your opinion, insight and advice.

That's really great that you do feel like you've come a ways in the last year. Hoping the next year is more of the same growth in the right direction.

Those boundaries are a big thing. From personal experience, once I was able to step back, stay in my lane, and enforce boundaries to keep H (and others) in their own lanes, a lot of life became much more manageable.

But there's still that potential for a lot of frustration. When you're over here doing all sorts of self improvement work, and the other side of the equation (your H) is stagnant at best and petulant at worst, it can feel a little pointless. But it's not. Never forget that YOU are a priority, and keep living into that.

A few days ago, DD said that she thought watching episodes of Intervention had taught her more about the potentially unhealthy aspects and pitfalls of substance use. We were watching these mostly when she was in 9th & 10th grade, and while (as said before) H doesn't fit the bill of being a classic alcoholic, watching the show gave her a lot of information about unhealthy alcohol use patterns- some of which she probably has seen in the house. For example, times when Dad was anxious and drank, then behaved selfishly and didn't act like a parent or adult.

The thing I worried about, and maybe still do to some extent, is that he would/will attempt to use alcohol as a bond with her at some point- essentially try to coerce her into becoming a drinking buddy. You see that dynamic on Intervention sometimes, and it seems like we see it IRL with other family members- alcohol/drinking becomes a mutual, bonding activity.

She's actually doing a school project right now on drug issues in our area, and was practicing her presentation earlier- she stopped the presentation and talked for a little bit about the genetic predisposition to abuse drugs or alcohol- i.e. she recognizes that if dad (and other family members) have developed unhealthy relationships with alcohol, that increases her chances of not being able to handle or control it well. So that's where we've been and are, if it helps any.

Especially when they're younger, it can be tough to find age appropriate information that also enforces good boundaries without confusing a kid- if that makes sense? For example, loud, obnoxious, drinking behavior might seem silly to a kid, when the situation isn't that at all. The kid might not be able to understand what's really going on. “Dad's being silly and Mom's angry about it for some reason.”

You sound so empowered in your boundaries toward your H. So in tune with your own needs and what you will and won't tolerate. It made me smile to read that. . Good for you!

Ah, your H has convenient amnesia when it comes to taking responsibility for his past actions. There are some people who have anosognosia, which is a condition where they actually block, or unable to retain memory of their actions. Even if that's a possibility, don't give him a pass, as that doesn't honor your experience. Once again, boundaries.

—>It feels like a trick almost.<--- Listen to your gut. When it comes to interacting with him in this way, YOU are the world's leading expert. Your therapist is giving him the benefit of the doubt. There's a phenomenon that happens pretty regularly when someone in a family system decides to get healthy and start doing the real work to make changes in themselves- other people in the system can get uncomfortable and try to manipulate things back to the way they were. Back to what was comfortable and felt controllable to them. That would be my concern, is that he's trying to reel you back into a particular place that's comfortable for him. Not saying that's what he's doing, but if your Spidey-sense is tingling, don't ignore it.

Have you seen your therapist? What did she say?

Things have continued to be busy here. And weird. H has been extra sullen and sarcastic, but I've been so focused on other things that it hits my radar and falls off again. It's those 3 C’s and focusing on yourself and what you need to do. Sometimes it's good to be busy

Hope that you are hanging in there well.

Yes those are such good words to live by, prioritize myself. Such a simple concept but sometimes so hard to execute. I think that story about your DD and intervention is so interesting. It is nice to here that kids can sort of extrapolate those lessons they learn, even from TV shows, and understand how their parents' behaviors are maybe not the most healthy. It does really help to hear about the conversations that you are having. I do think it has to help if you can have these honest conversations with your kids, especially when they are teenagers. My kids don't understand why anyone really drinks but it is definitely a fine line between making alcohol so forbidden its interesting to them vs. showing a healthy relationship. I have a friend who is very very militantly against food dye, like she won't let her kids have anything with it and she is super vocal about it. And when her daughter comes to my house I always find her knee deep in whatever she can find with dye in it and when I ask her what she wants for a snack she'll say, "What food do you have with food coloring in it", which is so funny. But it does illustrate the point that if you are so vocally against something it makes the kids almost more interested, right?

I really do try to have strong boundaries, I just don't know that they help. I was talking with my therapist about how indirect all the communication in my husband's family is and she mentioned to me that maybe that's why he is so difficult to communicate with directly. I think that is something worth thinking about. Like, if he makes a mistake, I want him to just acknowledge it and then we can move on. But the way he grew up and what he is used to is so indirect that he feels almost attacked by me directly telling him things like that. But, I also refuse to tip toe around things. So it is a difficult balance.


My therapist was flabbergasted by the whole "vaguely" thing. Her take was it could be many things, but maybe he meant that then or doesn't really remember, but doesn't mean it now or at least when we were discussing it so "vaguely" is a good way to sweep it under the rug. I tend to agree. It is also like what that other therapist said about ambivalent people. When you want something they pull back, when you pull back they come forward. I definitely think there is a little bit of that going on too.


I'm very swamped at work right now and my H is traveling a lot which, while a relief for me emotionally is harder physically to try and work and manage all of the kids at once. I am just going to keep moving forward and I guess see what happens.

How are things by you? Hopefully you are having a good spring season and everything is going as well as can be expected. I sure hope so!

Lol. You're right about the forbidden fruit. The story about your friend's daughter is right on target. Maybe it's just human nature to want what you can't have?

When it comes to things like alcohol and drugs, I tell DD that there's a reason people use them- because they do feel good, they do remove anxiety, though temporarily, and often leaving problems in their wake - afterall, drinking to alieviate anxiety isnt dealing with anxiety at all. If anything, it tends to cause more in the long run. Anyway, at her age, we can talk openly, and I hope for the best.

Indirect communication is a weapon of sorts, isn't it? If you never say exactly what you mean, no one can hold it against you. Narcissist are known for something called "word salad" where they seemingly toss words together that sound plausible on the surface, but when you really think about them, it makes no sense and has nothing to do with the subject at hand. My H 'runs off into the weeds' like this almost compulsively it seems. You often can't even get a straight answer to even simple questions like "what condiments do you want for your burger?" I've learned that if I need to communicate something with him, I just have to be the one who stays on target. Repeatedly.

Your H saying he only vaguely remembers potentially sounds like a convenient avoidance to me. Maybe it's not that, but on one level it sort of seems like an avoidant tactic a young kid would use to not have to deal with something. My H grew up in a house where Mom was always right, very heavy handed, and frankly unreasonable. It was probably a chronic no-win situation for him and his siblings. He never learned to talk things over; he learned to deny, manipulate, and avoid. It may be second nature to him to just avoid direct and honest conversations at all costs- to the point he may not even realize he's doing it. Don't know if that applies to your H in some form.

And as usual, I do my best to just detach from it all.

It's funny, I've been doing the detaching/codependency thing for about 2 1/2 years now, and one thought has really stood out recently. The more I detach from his disorders and focus on living for myself in a way that's healthy, the more disordered he seems. The better I'm getting and feeling, the sadder and sorrier I feel for him. I'm no longer engaged and getting dragged knee-deep in his disorder- I'm no longer drowning in it with him. It's fixed nothing between us, but it's so much better for me. I feel like I'm living in the real world again, and that's not a bad place to be. It's very good to focus on, and take care of, ourselves.

I'm sorry you and your family are going through this, it must be very challenging and exhausting. Set a timeline with a firm deadline/date--your husband needs to get himself in order by the date you set. In Order means, he needs to regularly see a therapist, take the proper medication, contribute to the family and help with your children, etc. Depression is real, but he still needs to take care of himself so he can contribute as a Husband and Father.