where to go from here

Hi everyone. I am 37F married to my husband 43M for 13 years, together for 17. I am in need of advice about my situation and am hoping people can offer their experience and thoughts. Apologize in advance for the very long post.

We have three children that are all under 10. My husband and I met when we were both fairly young. We both work full time and are on a good track career wise. He suffers from depression which was diagnosed when he was a young teenager, but it typically is well controlled. I would say the entire time we have been together there have maybe been 5-6 bouts of severe depression which were not too lengthy, although very personally hard for him and for me.

We had our kids fairly close together such that when we had our youngest son our oldest was not even four yet. During the time I was pregnant with our youngest and after I had him we were not having sex very often. As my husband was very unhappy about this, according to him, it precipitated a very severe depressive episode. Because of this and because we were both generally unhappy, after our son was born we went to marriage counseling for a few years and things seemed to improve, especially during the pandemic. Our kids are older now and there is more time for intimacy and to spend time with each other. However, for the past couple of months or so my husband has been completely checked out of parenting and our marriage and really our lives altogether. The kids and I function as a four person team and my husband is somewhat of a loner. We have maintained an active sex life because through counseling I was able to learn how important this is to him. Nonetheless, my husband has once again entered a major depressive episode for which he is currently in outpatient therapy and on medicine.

He tells me that our marriage, and only our marriage, is causing his depression. That no matter what he cannot be happy with me because we lack the "sexual connection" that he desires. That the only thing that can pull him out of his depression is this "sexual connection" with someone else, but he is 100% sure he can't find it with me. He is resentful of the times when our kids were young and I did not make time for him and cannot get over that. He says that we are very compatible in a lot of ways but he just can't be happy in our marriage. He doesn't even necessarily want to get divorced right now, he just wants to go have sex with other people and find this "connection" he is so desperately seeking as it is the only thing (in his mind) that can pull him out of his depression.

From my end (and I have expressed all of this to him), I don't want to end the relationship. I love him and care about him and think he is having a midlife crisis and depressive episode and desperately seeking "something". It is hard for me to take him seriously because depending on a marriage or sex with other women to cure depression doesn't work. He refuses to increase his meds or do any more serious therapy because again, he is 100% sure our marriage is the cause and only cause. I should also mention that he views divorce and our potential relationship if we get divorced in a way that is unrealistic, such as saying that he will always be there for me no matter what and hopes that we can be together as a family (even though divorced) a lot and that divorce will make the relationship between he and I better and stronger.

I'm at a loss of what to do. I am not ready to give up on our marriage, although I acknowledge it might very well be a hopeless situation. We have talked about it a lot, and he is considering whether he can actually be present in our marriage and give it a real try to see if it will work so we don't have to give up the life that we have built together. While we are working through that, I wanted to see if anyone has been in a similar situation and has any advice. Much appreciated!

@ShylaA0404 - welcome to MSF. I am sorry you are having relationship issues. It must be rough on you.

The problem with infidelity besides the hygenics issue, it usually changes a relationship in some way great or small depending on the people. My own situation with someone suffering from bipolar depression and mania has required a great deal of patience and fortitude. Some people may say just leave but living separately is expensive and you still have feelings for each other, even if his ideas seeem to be unrealistic and he is playing the blame game rather than taking responsibility for his state of mind.

I am not qualified to give advice but I can tell you what I have done. I have redefined the relationship in my mind. I am not walling off that person, but I am no longer seeing them as the source of my happiness. It has not always been this easy. There was a lot of anger to work through because they resisted treatment and even had a loss of connection to reality.

So now I am in a relationship but it is more than 50% me taking care of them and they contribute very little. This is difficult but doable. If I had not revised my attitude toward the relationship, I probably would not be in it now. If I thought of getting something from them and being treated the way I wanted to, I would be very disappointed.

If anything, you may want to continue a relationship with a therapist to help ground you in reality in terms of your relationship and your children. I say you because your partner seems to be resisting treatment. This is not a good sign and spells trouble ahead unless they change their mind. Having your own safety net present can really help you deal with the unfolding situation and they can advise you as a professional how to respond to the changing saga you may encounter over the next few years. That professional advice could be more relevant to your particular situation than the opinions of peer support you may get here. I do not give advice because I do not know your situation the way a professional would but I hope what I have shared will help you proceed.

I am happy to correspond in private message (click on CANDC to the left of this message and send a private message) or in this forum. Please add @CANDC to your message so I get an alert to your response. @CANDC

Thanks for the reply. It is really difficult to be in a relationship with someone who struggles with severe mental health issues. In a way I have implemented your advice because I have stopped relying on him for much help around the house or with the children and having redefined that in my head it really has helped me be less resentful.

I could change my mind but right now I'm not willing to accept this concept of an "open marriage". However, I also don't want to hold his feet to the fire on these major life decisions when he is in a depressive episode. I do think I need to talk to a therapist and an attorney at least to protect myself and see what the options are.

My husband is actually in therapy but he doesn't want to hear what anyone is saying. He has convinced himself there is exactly one path forward and although no one agrees with him he is intent on it. I may end up having to let him self destruct although it certainly is not what I want for myself, for him or my kids.


I do appreciate your advice and experience so thank you!

@ShylaA0404
I empathize with what you are going through. Your partner is not acting rationally. You sound like you are maintaining calm mind for the most part. Some of these suggestions may not be appropriate to your situation, but as a peer support person I have heard a lot of terrible outcomes when one partner has mental health issues.

sometimes the only thing that can be done for someone is to let them become a threat to themselves and end up IP In Patient until they get them on a regiment of meds that gets them stable. Otherwise they may end up there for an extended period. At first I felt like I did something wrong that they ended up IP, but after I got tired of all their stuff, it seemed like a vacation when they went IP.

You might want to make sure about financial stuff like put a credit freeze on the three credit agencies if you are in US so no one can open up credit in your name. You can lift the freeze if you need to and refreeze. Nowadays this is a wise precaution.

If you have joint credit cards and joint accounts you may want to take steps to set up your own credit card and bank account before doing the credit freeze. I have heard horror stories how one partner charged up the credit card to the max and drained the joint account and skipped town. Prevention is better than regret. Maybe the lawyer has other suggestions. Once you have credit setup you might talk to the lawyer or credit card company if you can take your name off that joint credit card and or lower the credit limit if you feel like they may charge up wildly or use the house as collateral to take out a loan.

Check how the house is listed in both names. If in his name only that could be a big disappointment to end marriage and then not have a house.

If you ever feel you or your kids are not safe, then you may want to involve emergency personnel. Being a threat to others is a reason to put someone IP, but there is no guarantee they can keep him IP. Often people get 72 hour observation and released if they do not have evidence that a person is a danger to themselves or others. This can create a lot of hard feelings so that is usually a last resort.

What works better is to get them to go to the Emergency Room and have them evaluate them.

I hope things never get this bad and you may have already thought of all these things, but I offer them after listening to people that had unfortunate situations. Hope you never have that.

I find it disturbing that somehow you came out of marriage counseling with the notion that you must accommodate him sexually because this is SOOOOOO important to him, yet he seems not to accommodate you in other ways.

So in other words, you came away with the feeling that if you don't do what he wants sexually or allow him to do so, your marriage will end. This is a falsehood. He puts a carrot on a stick for you to follow around. You give him the sex, and now you are lacking a "connection" that he needs SOOOOOOO much.

You're already alone. Why be alone with someone else?

I will say this - if he's asking for this open marriage, you can bet he's already opened it on his side or he has someone in the wings. Start checking his internet history and his phone. You will probably find your answer there.

Thank you so much for your advice. This is a really smart financial check list. Luckily, I already have my own bank account and the house is in both of our names. Since we both work full time and haven't stopped, even though I am not fully financially independent from him I feel very lucky that I do have some degree of independence and awareness there.


He has never been violent or abusive nor has he had any problems with substance abuse so we are good there too but I very much appreciate all of the tips because you can never be too sure.

I am glad you brought this up. When we were in couples therapy the therapist seemed more concerned about accommodating him and his needs. None of it was really about me. At the time, I had a baby, a 2 year old and a 4 year old and was basically doing everything myself and yet, most of the therapy was about him. And sex. And all I got out of it, apart from the notion from the therapist herself that I was supposed to accommodate him sexually whenever he wanted and was a bad wife for not doing so, was that I lowered my expectations of him so when he didn't help me I no longer expected it so I didn't get frustrated. I just took it on myself. Now, the kids are older so it is somewhat easier managing them and my husband is better at doing logistical things like dropping kids off or going to sports practices than he is at hands on stuff at home so it has worked out okay. But, again, all good points. BTW - our couples therapist is now his personal therapist.

About the open marriage, you might be right there too. But, he does seem to be sticking around asking for my permissions rather than going and doing at least for now. But I would not be surprised if something was going on. In the past few months he has traveled a lot for work so I may never know.

I'm going to insert my experience here although the situation is not exactly the same. From a man's point of view he is living in a sexless marriage ? Is that correct ? Is it also emotionally deficient on your part ? Do you have a physical connection ?
Do you still have a passion for him ? Or do you view sexual activity a chore. I. Know that my wife wouldn't care what I do on the outside as long as I leave her alone. She cannot have sex with me on any level due to physical reasons. Yet I think her blockage is psychological. Doesn't want therapy. I would do anything to meet her needs , but she won't do that for me. What am I supposed to do ? Luckily I don't have children to take care of. BTW : I suffer from severe chronic depression. I do my best to function normally but it is not easy. That's all I can say for now except , don't give up on him. He doesn't really want to go outside the marriage for sex , it seems he has no choice. It's a need that has to be fulfilled.

My first thought was to wonder if your DH's counselor is the same one my dh talks to...

I accompanied him once, at their request to help her help him, and walked away being blamed for the abuse he had perpetrated. Apparently the problem wasn't his inability to control himself, it was my failure to put down boundaries in that moment...

He only goes to counseling because he broke down so badly that he had no other option (he has mdd, prob midlife crisis, and who knows what else). He's been in counseling for over a year, and the only thing that's changed much is me. My boundaries are greater and tolerance for bad behavior is less.

This may pertain to you, but I've been told that if your SO can't or won't show you consistent empathy and respect outside of the counseling session, don't go. The counselor will see what happens in the office and not what happens in real life- and you will get the short end of the stick. Wanting to have an open marriage at the expense of your wife who's the mother of your children doesn't seem very empathetic or respectful.

Anyhow, I think you are doing the right thing to quietly get your ducks in a row, and since you're already at that point, don't feel bad if you decide to hold his feet to the fire and use very strong boundaries.

There are things you wrote about your dh that feel like echos of mine. In the last couple of years. I've come to understand him to be very passive aggressive. This can largely fly under the radar as incompetence or laziness among other things, and counselors will almost never see it. It's the cleverest way to get your way because it's almost impossible to call someone out on it.

Sometimes passive aggressive people will want a divorce, but don't want to be the one who initiates it- if they do, they will be the bad guy, and can no longer play the victim. Instead they do anything in their power to covertly push the other person to initiate it. Could it be possible that your DH's desire to have an open marriage might actually be him trying to force your hand? So he doesn't have to do it?

My dh has done things like that, where I suspect he is trying to manipulate me into doing something so that he can remain untarnished in other's eyes. His covert behaviors and inability to care for my feelings have heavily damaged our marriage. It's taken me a long time to build up confidence and boundaries with him, but once that happened, he often backpedals wildly after making demands or "suggestions " that don't pan out as he expected.

No real advice. It sounds like you already know what you will and won't tolerate and are prioritizing yourself and your kids.

This is not the case in my situation. Even very recently we are having sex and usually several times a week. We've never had a "sexless" marriage. The closest we came to that was a period several years ago when I was pregnant and went several months but since that time we have definitely had routine sex, especially as I learned through our marriage counseling several years ago how important it was to him.


I think we have a physical connection, I don't view sex with him as a chore or anything. The problem is that he (or his depression) doesn't believe me. So, he tells me we are not sexually compatible because I don't want sex as much or often as him, even if we are having it as often as he wants to, it is not going to cut it for him right now.


I am more in your position in my marriage as I have told him I want to work on this with him, but he thinks this "sexual connection" that will cure his depression is something that just has to "be", it can't be worked on together so he wants to give up and move on.

Thanks so much for your perspective. It definitely helps me not to feel so alone. Honestly, when we did the couples therapy, I was so underwater with my kids. They were so little and my oldest had significant issues that thankfully have improved a lot and I was just trying to get through that hard period that I think a lot of parents go through when they have young kids.

And you are totally onto something with the passive aggressiveness and being the bad guy. I do think he wants me to divorce him so he won't feel guilty. When we are discussing things and I fight back on ending our marriage, he always says things like "why do you want to stay married to me" and then I feel like I have to declare my love to someone who is actively rejecting me, it is so tricky. That's where I think his depression really complicates things for me.

I really have a hard time making major life decisions when he can't think straight. But, the shock is starting to wear off for me and I have to protect myself and put up boundaries. I am going to be ordering a lot of books to read up on this stuff and try and figure out what is best for ME and my kids instead of him.


And btw that is so unfair that the therapist blamed you. This is part of why I am so disappointed in therapy right now that I don't want to seek any myself. It seems like therapists now just sort of echo what the person seeing them says and serve as "yes men" instead of challenging points of view and helping people develop healthy coping mechanisms. Hoping that is just something that both of our husbands have and is not indicative of the overall field but at this point I'm skeptical.

Oh my gosh, my dh's line to end any discussion was always, "If I'm such a bad person, why are you still here?" Sounds similar, huh? It kills any discussion and then things never get resolved. They think they are being smart, but it's not just a conversation killer, it's a relationship killer too. Nothing ever gets resolved

I have no doubt that my dh is depressed, but also no doubts that he uses that, other medical issues, and anything else that's convenient as a manipulative tool. Even depressed people have to be accountable for their actions. We don't have to be mean to them in order to hold our ground or have reasonable expectations.

If you think he might be passive aggressive, I can post a couple of book titles that were particularly helpful to me.

A word of warning though, IF he is passive aggressive, regular boundary books can be a trap. Normal boundaries are set between people who have respect for each other. Openly setting a boundary with a passive aggressive person can essentially be like telling them how to upset you. I've run into this with dh- if I tell him something he does hurts my feelings, he may act contrite in the moment and then doubles down on the behavior shortly. Boundaries may need to be a little different at times with a PA person- sometimes it's realizing they are doing it on purpose, and actively ignoring it (so they dont get the feedback they crave).

I feel so badly for you that you were also put in that situation where a therapist may have done more harm than good. But don't feel too badly for me, she probably did me a huge favor. Had I not been so disgusted by the experience, I probably would have agreed to go to counseling. She likely ultimately saved me hours of time and a lot of headaches...

Hugs to you. Take your time to do what you need to do and don't let him or anyone else pressure you into doing something that isn't right for you.

You are exactly right. And it does kill every conversation. Honestly, when we discuss things and I get upset, my H tells me that my emotions effect his too much and it makes him suicidal to see me that upset. I feel like that's pretty manipulative even if it is true, but who knows.


I'd love some books suggestions. I am sort of stuck in no man's land. So I am trying to work on what I can control and stay in the present. My H tells me things like if he doesn't get out and go start seeing other women now, it is eating him alive and he can't go on. Not quite sure what to do with that. Also, his two therapists certainly are not behind this mid-life crisis part of his depression. In any event, its weird because it is like he wants my permission to do so. I think all I can tell him is I can't control what he does, but I also can't promise him that our marriage will still be available from my end if he wants to come back after his venture into single man land. In reality, I probably would do a lot to save our marriage, especially because passing our kids back and forth is unbearable to me. Also, the reality is I love him and I want to stay married. And, I definitely have some blame also in how we got here.


Do you have any specific advice on this situation? It seems like our husbands are very similar so I would love to hear it if you do and definitely send any books my way.


Thank you!

Shyla,

I'm so sorry that you are dealing with this, it's ridiculous IMO.

Let me just say that if your dh is PA, then you probably have so much more power than you realize. It took me a long time to see this with my dh, but once I did, it was a game changer. The problem is that using your power is scary because it might invite an action that you don't want, so you have to decide what right for YOU, where YOUR tolerances are.

Think about this though (as was told to me at one point). People who want a divorce or want to have an affair don't ask permission. He's doing this either for manipulation, or to put the ball in your court so that you can shoulder his responsibility. He goes and has an affair and the marriage falls apart? Hey, you authorized it.

Here's a power sentence. A complete one:

No.

My dh can be a master manipulator and every conversation can be twisted to where I don't know which end is up. What works for me is to stay completely in that moment (not the bigger picture) and address nothing more than that. I stay in my swim lane and put him back into his as needed. For example, if you're trying to have a conversation about an issue and he goes to a manipulative I'm-feeling-suicidal place, rather than back down, you can call him on it- but only if you feel confident enough to do it, and that it's safe to do so. Stop the other conversation and ask him if he needs you to call help for him or take him to the emergency room - ball back in his court. If he says no, ask him if you can continue talking about xyx. If he says no, acknowledge that and walk away- now he's just ended the conversation. Put the issue back in his lane and make him responsible for what's going on. It's really hard, because sometimes we've gotten past the point of being able to see it when it's happening . Took me a lot of practice.

I'm a terrible person to give advice on this. I've learned a lot about taking care of myself and not taking responsibility for things that are his, but my marriage is not a very functional place. I'm still here for a variety of messy reasons, but dh is checked out and not contributing in many ways, so it's not much of a marriage. At this point, if the good guy I remember showed up tomorrow, it still would never be the same- it's like when a pet bites you and you can never quite be as relaxed around them, never quite trust them the same. Too much water under the bridge.

I'll probably post a bit more to you in a while, but think about what you want, what you'll tolerate, and how much power you do have over the situation- it may be more than you realize.

Hi again.

Just to clarify, the pushback and accountability I posted about is something I only do when his behavior seems predominantly PA, manipulative, agro, etc. When he seems like he's in a scarier, deeper depression, he's quiet and tired. When he's like that, there's no need for push back and it's easier to be gentle with him. Not saying this is a standard thing, just the pattern around here.

Dr. Ramani and Dr. Les Carter both have a lot of good videos on YouTube about passive aggressive/ covert narcissist. That might be a place for you to start and see if anything feels relatable to you.

In that same vein, there's a book titled The Covert Passive Aggressive Narcissist that I wish I'd found earlier. You can do the "look inside" thing at Amazon to see if it might resonate.

The best book I've come across to address passive aggressive behavior (not necessarily based on personality disorders) is The Angry Smile. These people literally wrote the book on passive aggression. I'd done a lot of research prior to coming across this one, and still felt very confused. This one cleared up everything- from what causes it, to how to spot it, to how to deal with it.

Not sure if this might help you, but Codependent No More has been invaluable to me. It taught me to start taking care of myself and stop taking responsibility for others. This is another one you can look inside at Amazon and see if it might be of some use. Without this, I would probably have never been brave enough to start holding my own against him.

Hope everything is going okay for you today and that your dh is behaving okay.

@ArmorPlate 108 Hi, first I want to thank you so much for spending the time to give me your advice and perspective. I was talking to my best friend and she was telling me how much she agreed with what you were saying about the behavior being a manipulation. For me, it can be really hard because deep down I believe my H is a good person in a really scary place desperately searching for an answer. I also still love him very much. However, at the same time, it seems like myself, our children and our family might be sacrificed on his quest and he freely admits that and seems okay with it.


I also take a lot of power from you saying "No" is a complete answer. The truth is, I have no way of knowing if my H has already had affairs or why he would ask permission to do so now.

For me, I think the hardest part of where we are right now is the limbo. But, I appreciate your book recommendations and I am going to go look them up now. My H and I really haven't done any deep talks for the past few days which is somewhat of a welcome relief. If I just focus on what I want right right now, I know I don't want to get divorced at the moment. I know I am not okay with him seeing other people. At the same time, I am not going to divorce him for that preemptively, nor am I going to promise him I will be waiting here if/when he wants to go see other people and come back. I don't know if it is a mark of a passive aggressive person, a depressed person, a midlife crisis, or just my husband, but I don't think he knows what he wants either.


For example, he told me the past week that in April he was so angry at me b/c I was planning a trip to somewhere fun for us to take the kids and I put a lot of time and effort into it, but that I wasn't planning a trip for he and I. But, when I told him I want to go on a trip with him and gave him some ideas/dates and the like, he said he was not interested in that. That definitely seems very PA, so I look forward to tackling that in the books you send.

Sorry this response was all over the place. But I truly am going to work on myself and what I want, and what I can do to achieve that. And you really have helped me so much, so again, it is so much appreciated.

And by the way, just as a funny aside, all of these types of books (as I previously ordered the divorce busting one and a few other marriage saver books) seem to not come in electronic form, I wonder why? All but my youngest kid can read so I have to hide these from them. I wish they would come as an ebook!

Lol, I've got books hidden all over the place . Some of them have fabric slipcovers on them to conceal them a bit.

I hope you're doing okay today.

It can be a very lonely place. I hope this makes you feel a little less alone.

I read Codependent No More openly in front of dh and let him know that this is a problem I have, and the reason why I can no longer put his needs ahead of my own. "Sorry, my codependency work doesn't allow it." Don't get me wrong, I'm not a jerk about it, but don't hide it either.

It's easier now that DD is older, sees what's going on, and won't be part of a custody issue. After he started acting really bad, when she was about 12, I cowtowed more than I would have liked because I was worried he and his family might take her. Nobody would believe me about how he was behaving.

I went through the same thing about trip planning! He was never happy no matter what. Notice the pattern? You do all the work and he gets to be unhappy no matter what? I stopped suggesting trips and then suggested he plan a day trip somewhere for us. Instead of taking it seriously, and suggesting we go to the zoo or aquarium or something, he started talking about going halfway across country. He wasn't even taking it seriously, just distracting and being difficult.

I've been debating telling you about the situation that came up here a while back, maybe it would help you. Very long story short, one of his go tos is to threaten divorce every few months (this is common in borderline personality). I had gotten to a point where I was getting very sick of it, and he was getting much worse. On this particular occasion, I calmly asked him three times if he was serious. He said he was. Instead of groveling and crying, like he probably expected, I walked out of the room and called to DD that we were going to Home Depot to get moving boxes. He freaked out and started backpedalling. The shameful part of the story is that I allowed myself to get baited into some reactive abuse after that.

The next day, he came to me. I think he was trying to feel like he was in control again, and he told me how it would be if and when he left me. He was going to go live the life of his dreams and do whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted, and I was going to stay here, raise DD, and nothing else was to change for me. Nevermind how financially unrealistic it was. But this is where I hit my limit and when I did, things changed a lot. He doesn't push me quite as overtly as he used to, but he still tries to get his covert licks in. Anyhow, I said very calmly and sternly to him. "if you choose to leave this marriage, I'm not going to stay here like a piece of furniture in storage and raise our daughter. If you choose to leave this marriage, I'm taking my daughter, moving, and getting on with my life."

That was the mother of all boundaries and it scared him. And I meant it. And he realized it. It helps that DD is as old as she is, and I get where the problems with having younger kids can lie. But he needed to take me seriously, and he did. Things aren't necessarily much better, but he knows he can't walk all over me like he used to. So in a sense, they are better for me. But I also have to be ready to accept that he may choose to cross the line and then we'll live with the consequences, but that I have limits he can't cross has been made crystal clear.

His reaction in both instances, though, was that of someone who was being manipulative and pushing the envelope. I called his bluff and both times he got scared and backed down.

Where it goes from here, who knows? My overall situation is a lot more complicated than just what's posted here, otherwise it probably makes no sense why I'm still here.

I gotta wrap this one up. He's been unhappy for a few weeks now, and was baiting me a little earlier because of something I apparently did wrong with the car. No worries, we'll see how I handle this one.

Hang in there.

Btw, if he's already had an affair, his asking permission is probably him trying to retroactively absolve himself of guilt.

Probably so. And I’m not sure I would be surprised if he had. But last night we were just sitting together and he told me if he doesn’t leave he’s going to have a heart attack. So I took your advice and asked him if he needed me to take him to the hospital. I said if you are about to have a heart attack that is very worrisome, should I call an ambulance? And then he totally backed off of that, so that was excellent.

It is so lonely, thank you for checking in. I’m hanging in there but all this is so hard. My H just snaps at me when I speak to him. I don’t know if you’ve experienced this but he’s like a different person now. I do also appreciate your story. I do have a hard time gauging what my H will do. He now wants us to buy a condo that I guess he will live in for six months while calling us “separated”. He can’t even tell me what that would look like or what the kids would do. I handle about 90% of parenting and 100% of all parenting logistics so part of me wants him to see what this is all like even though it’s infinitely easier than it was when they were all under four. I guess only time will tell but your tip about calling him on the medical stuff worked so well! I will be using that from now on for sure.