Is this what it's like to be 13 in todays society??

Angel: Let me say too, I’m new to Psych Central and I hold a non-mainstream (at least for here) view. That coupled with the nearly twelve pages of preaching to the choir has got me feeling a little bit marginalized.

Lynn P. I don't feel I'm preaching.

I didn’t think you were preaching either. What I meant by ‘preaching to the choir’ was that it seemed that most everyone’s views were very nearly identical. Another example might be one Tea Partier talking to another about the likeability of Sarah Palin. Everyone agrees, no arguments, preaching to the choir.

I was shocked at the rude behavior on the bus and yes I do believe sex too young is a mistake.

I believe sex too young is a mistake as well. I’ve met people in their forties who I think are too young for sex and so I don’t think age is necessarily the best barometer although I’m quite sure I’ve never met a thirteen year old who I thought was mature or old enough. That said though, they weren’t having sex. Exploring their sexuality with a quick feel off a willing participant and some innuendo is about par for the thirteen-year-old course in my experience. Do I think they’re too young for that too? Well, that’s a good question so let’s get to that…

Yes, I think they’re too young for that. Laura & Mary Ingalls on Little House on the Prairie were children when they got married; were they too young? Or my grandparents are fifteen and sixteen? We could argue that but I hope we don’t. What I’m hoping to get across, perhaps poorly, is that those were different times, different societal norms. Well, it’s different again. I’m not saying that I like the proliferation of porn available to our children, or the sexualization of tween starlets, or thongs being sold in the toddler section of department stores – but we live in those times.

For the most part, I would love my daughters to have been born in simpler and more innocent times, but they were not. We can force them to live outside todays societal norms and watch as they approach life awkwardly and poorly adjusted or they can live in the world, we teach them our morals and values as parents and hope they reject the stupidity. I’m going to regret that line I just know I am… perhaps your children are well adjusted and not socially awkward at all but realistically, this is the world we live in, if we shelter them from the world as it is, it will be harder to fit within the world later. That does not mean start having sex at thirteen! I think though, that it does mean accept the fact that Trojan is going to have commercials on TV at 4pm, fifteen year old girls are going to make out with other fifteen year old girls to attract boys attention and boy bands are going to be built to try and cash in on their sexual attraction to ten year old girls. No matter how hard we try to shelter them, we can’t succeed. All we can do is teach them what we feel is right, let them make mistakes within the limits of our gag reflex and pray, if you’re the praying type.

I'm happy you have a great dad and he gave you some freedom. I also think boys are given more freedom than girls. Maybe you were respectful to young girls and tried to establish a connection before touching. Would you grab a girl you barely know on the breast or was it your special girl at the time?

Every year that goes by I’m a little more grateful that I had a great dad… J Anyway, as far as boys having more freedom than girls – maybe, less so today, although I still think there is good reason for that; I never dated a girl who could force herself on me. Respectful to young girls… no, I don’t think so really. Honestly, I think I was taught to respect myself. I don’t think…and I mean that I’m really thinking…it was a long time ago… but I really think that I didn’t touch young girls I didn’t know very well because I was taught to respect myself. And that is something as parents we can teach both our boys and our girls so that when something like this happens – our boys don’t want to touch the girl who is letting everyone touch her. I knew, even then, that I deserved better than that.

Yes this behavior has given a bad impression, as I wrote in last nights post - a boy turned around and said to my daughter "you have big breasts"

Honestly, this struck me as ‘so what’. I understand that it was an unwelcome comment but that’s all it was, an unwanted comment by a childish…child. Choosing between uncouth and violence, I find violence the greater offence. I know that I have, on occasion, had the desire to punch someone who had offended me – but as long as they are just words…

Would it have been okay if your daughter offered free grabs to boys on the bus and simulate oral sex with a pickle.

Not at all. If she had, then I would almost certainly feel that I had failed in some way as a parent. However, the girl in question is not my daughter – or yours. Her behavior is not a reflection on us but a reflection on her parents and society. A call to the school is not going to undo thirteen years of parenting by parents with a very different outlook on parenting than you and I combined with thirteen years of societal conditioning.

I don't know if you read my last few posts. I mentioned if this was a cute young boy and girl who snuck a feel on the bus - this wouldn't be such an issue. Did you feel up girls who you didn't know or were they your girl??? Did you hope for it to be somewhat private or were you happy for all your guy friends to watch the show? This girl offers free grabs to a group of boys.

I actually had missed your last posts and this comment. As for your questions, no – but again, that was self-respect that kept me from such behavior.

This is why my daughter got the rude comment yesterday.

See, I don’t buy this. It might be why she got that comment, or it might have been something he saw on MTV, or his dad might have said it to the waitress at Hooters last night while they were having dinner. There are so many influences in our children’s lives today that sexualize everything that I’m not at all convinced we can attribute that comment to the action of a thirteen year old girl on a bus.

I think most young people are learning sex from watching porn - which is so sad. Things are different than even 15 yrs ago. I realize all teenagers from the beginning of time have sexual feelings, but in today's world there's too much pressure. My main point is - this shouldn't be happening on the bus. The way it was done was concerning because this wasn't her BF.

The girl is screaming for attention. I would suggest that it isn’t even sexual in that she is not doing it due to sexual desire or feelings but for attention. Is that troubling? Absolutely, the girl is in for a really rough ride, but there are 4,673,329 just like her out there and nothing I heard presented here is going to safe her from that fate. As for protecting our children from such behavior… well again, there are 4,673,329 of them out there; our kids are outnumbered. In my opinion, we don’t protect them by insulating them from society but from teaching them our morals and values and then trusting in both ourselves and themto do the right thing.

I don't get why you're promoting this behavior. I'm not talking about cute little sneaks where a boy touches his GF - which is probably what you're talking about. I'm talking about blatant "here you go touch me, even though I don't know your name" or giving lessons on how to perform oral sex with a pickle" -while a group watches and gets turned on. If this was a city bus with adults doing this -the police would be called.

I’m not promoting this behavior; I’m just saying that it’s none of my business if my daughter isn’t involved. My daughters, like yours, came home and told me about these types of behaviors, including things far worse. We talked about it, how it made her feel, what she thought about it and what lessons she could learn. I would ask her, why do you think this girl acted like this? We would discuss attention-seeking behavior; it’s roots and causes, as well as its inevitable conclusions. I firmly believe that my parenting obligations stop there and while I feel sorry for the girl, I cannot save her. If nothing else, she served as a lesson in my daughter’s life, fodder for her to firm up her own beliefs about proper action and for that, I’d be grateful to the girl.

And your daughter is not involved in this incident.
I can appreciate a humble man. Then after sixteen hours to spend time with his children too certainly is remarkable.

This is a thread where the participants feel strongly and likely will never agree. That said, I am going to decide what I think is right with the help of what my parents taught me. And what the preacher at church said.

"I’m not promoting this behavior; I’m just saying that it’s none of my business if my daughter isn’t involved."

I agree with most of your post except with the above line. Since there's rules on the school bus, any one who breaks the rules - suffers consequences. So if a child is being bullied and it's not my child, I should just ignore it. All I wanted was for the behavior to stop. I was happy the vice principle was going to talk to the kids. After the pickle incident it was obvious she didn't listen. It's reasonable to make her sit at the front or not ride the bus. If my own daughter did this - I would expect the same and I would want to know.

This incident was more about principle than worrying about my own daughter. I believe my daughter can be in a bad environment and handle herself. This is why things get over looked in the world, like a man dying on the street while people walk by. This is why some victims get bullied repeatedly on the bus because no one stands up.

Since there are grade 4,5,6's on the bus - I don't think they should witness this behavior. As I stated from the beginning if this was a cute BF and GF couple in love who snuck a feel, no one would notice or care. This was a bold 'here you go' situation with boys watching.. A small part of me is feeling bad for getting involved, yet I stand up for what I believe. Rules are meant to be followed. If this wouldn't be acceptable on a city bus, then a school bus should be the same.

AKAngel - we agree on some things, but not on others. You have your opinion as do I and I agree to disagree at this point.

Thanks for discussing it with me, I enjoyed it. ~hugs~ if you will accept it.

Wow, I feel like I could have been that girl in question. I have been more curious than my friends about sex as young as I can remember. My therapist has helped me to know that it is extremely common for kids to have sexual feelings, and even to act on them. I wasn't a slut (as I have been called before) just because I was more curious than others. Or maybe just more brave to carry out the actions. I remember how the "band bus" was known for people making out (or more) on the way home from ballgames. I'm pretty sure I was felt up a couple of times by guys that weren't my BF just because my adolescent hormones were raging and telling me to make it happen. In fact my first time to have sex was one time at band camp (no joke).

And Oh, how my parents tried to teach me good values. In fact they shoved good values down my throat to the point that I was scared of them and scared to talk to them about anything. If I had talked to my parents about sex they would have found some crazy reason to ground me so they could lock me up in my room for a month.

Anyway my point is that even kids that have good values taught at home can rebel. It is part of growing up to rebel and experiment. I think this is a normal part of growing up. When I was in school is was exactly like this. I am 29.

So, yes, I think this is what it is like to be 13 today or yesterday or last year, etc...

Thanks for sharing your experience of what it was like to be that age. Now that you're 29 - if you could replay those years knowing what you know now - do you think you would do the same thing?

For example I had a BF when I was 14 and then didn't date until 18. Looking back I don't think I was ready to date even at 18 and I wish I would have waited. I was too naive for any relationship and my mind wasn't mature to make important decisions about my body.

I was thinking about this thread the other night and what it was like to be 12. Anyways, the sexual stuff didn't bother me nearly as much as the drug scene going on. You could tell what age group was at the bus stop based off of how many smokers there where, elementary school kids didn't have anyone smoking, and the middle schoolers had their own little crowd of smokers. I never saw highschoolers so I don't know about them but I'd assume their crowd was larger. That was just the obvious right in your face out in the open stuff going on. I remember my older brother in middle school coming home and my dad flipping out because he thought he was high on more then one occasion. At the time I was defensive that he wasn't but looking back it really wouldn't surprise me since he and his friends would find cigarette buds and smoke them out in the woods, he quit though sometime before high school (instead opting to covertly smoke pot and drink but once again stopped, I forgot why.) in 8th grade some kids on the bus decided to sneak on a bunch of alcohol and got drunk before they even got to school, in high school most kids either drank or smoked weed as their drugs of choice but some people would also pop pills, and some would do hard drugs.

Hmmm.... I really think about that a lot bc it has been a topic in my therapy. To answer the question, I would do some things the same and some things differently. Honestly, the things I would change didn't happen until I was an adult. I don't think I would change my experiences of fooling around with guys when I was younger, bc I feel those experiences helped shape the person I am today. I wasn't always happy with that person, but after therapy I am learning that we all grow and make mistakes. Without the mistakes we wouldn't be the people we are. I accept myself and the person I was and am now. I feel I am the best person I can be. But if I were going to regret things, it would be the things I did in college rather than middle or high school.

I guess I still just feel like this is a normal part of growing up, to learn about one's sexuality. The urges are there and things happen. Hopefully most learn to control the reaction to it. But even if one doesn't learn to control the behavior, I still think it is a normal part of the process of growing and learning.

I had avoided reading this thread because it is so apparent to me as a middle school teacher. Today, for instance, I have this very troublesome 6th grade group at the end of the day. I have this one girl who says sexual things to the boys. She didn't want to do her project, so I moved her up to sit by me, and gave her an art book to read (she never opened it). The boys kept coming up to my desk to make comments to her. I hadn't really listened closely to the kinds of things she has been saying till today. She said, out loud, so the other kids could hear: "Last night at Taco Bell, my mom asked the young guy working there, what he thinks of when he hears the word 'balls.' " This is the girl's MOM! She continued saying more such things. I stated to her, "I'm going to have to schedule an appointment for you and me to go talk to the principal." Explaining to her that what she was saying was inappropriate. She tried then to change her demeanor, acting like a little girl (which she is). But, clearly,she has already learned how to behave sexually. This is so sad. Children being robbed of their childhood.
Patty

Warning: Could be graphic, but I'm trying to be delicate.

I think the reason the topic is so emotional for me is that, when I was that girl's age, I *was* being sexually abused at home. AND I had that bad example Seeker is referring to. My mother had several husbands, plus live-in boyfriends between marriages. She could give me all the "talks" she wanted to on propriety and "sending boys the wrong signals," but actions speak louder than words, and when I was 7, I walked in on her "in the afterglow" with a man she had just met that night at a drive-in. I could see everything they both had, and even though they knew I was there, neither one made a move to cover up.

If I acted out sexually then, this would have been the reason. I was a little older, though, 15 years old, when I voluntarily lost my "virtue."

And from that time until I got married at the age of 19 (already a mother) I became quite the little tramp. I felt bad about myself, and every time another boy would sleep with me, I would think, "Now you see? I'm not so fat and ugly after all; *that* boy wanted me." The truth is, they didn't care about me whatsoever. They only wanted to brag to their buddies about how many girls they'd bedded, and I was another notch in their gun handle. It had nothing to do with how attractive I was, or wasn't.

The point I'm making is, promiscuity is very common in girls who have been sexually abused, and that's why bells started going off in my head when I read about the girl in question. I've got to wonder what's going on in her household.

And I can't resist adding, if any girl anywhere is being sexually abused, it's my business whether she is my daughter or not.

Nicely said Lovebirds, very well put.

Aww man does that make me feel sick.... ;c
Those poor poor mothers and boys.

I'm lucky I never gotten pregnant or spread my business gossip to friends or my ex and I could have been in deep trouble D;

That is so unfortunate to hear, they should really really change that...

I am taking the main part of this article. Thought it would be interesting in light of this thread as it is related. Research, not just opinion. We look at all the damage sexual abuse has done to people who are dealing with mental illness....from DID, to the many other mental illnesses we are dealing with. As LovebirdsFlying stated, she was promiscuous because she was going through sexual abuse at home. Sure there are some kids that will just be rebellious in spite of the moral values they are taught, but that should be the minority, not the majority that we are seeing today. The increase of this sexual freedom has rapidly come with the availability of PORN on the computer....no longer limited to the sneeking a peek at the Playboy that some parents had hiding in the house. Parents in the the past generations kept their sexual actions private. Showing affection is not the same thing & that was held to what was appropriate in front of the children.

I found this article quite interesting & it does make many good points.

This has been a very real and frequent discussion in our house. This might sound silly or gross, but we live in a rural area. Something as simple as peeing behind a bush can get you literally arrested and charged with indecent exposure. One college mate of my daughters was walking back to campus, stopped to pee behind a tree and when the police stopped the group to check ID’s this boy was ticketed for indecent exposure, what the police did not take into consideration, but the DA did was that there was a tiny charter school so many feet from where the incident took place. It did not matter that those feet were a dense flippin forest and it was 3 am. He still has to register as a sex offender and his classification was quite severe because of his location to an elementary school.

As I’ve said before, I grew up with relatives in law enforcement, both police and attorneys, I clerked for a District Court Judge (15 years ago) and saw and heard what went on behind the scenes. We seem to have lost all common sense. But on the other hand, now there are laws in place to protect those that would have fallen through the cracks 15 years ago.

It is my opinion that because parents have been so lax teaching their kids morals and manners, that the legislators have had enough. Although I don’t believe you can “legislate” morals, they seem to be giving it one heck of a shot.

I do believe that there are some crimes that should NOT have a statue of limitations. I was so proud to hear that our state decided to give more time to the victims of abuse to come forward.

I don’t know what the answers are. I don’t even know what I would change, because the laws do give the victims more rights, they are protecting the general public. I know four men that have been “victimized” (for a lack of a better term) by these laws, but how many dangerous people have been taken off the streets because of them in return? The state is going bankrupt supporting kids having kids, is it proper that if the “father” of the child is a minor that you can sue the parents of that minor for child support of the baby?

Thank you Eskielover for this informative article. I agree with you completely that it's a terrible influence on young people.

I wish I knew the best way to handle this problem and I don't even think the experts have one best solution. I'm been giving this issue alot of thought, but don't have them organized enough to post. I've been dealing with a health problem called a Frozen Shoulder and I'm in considerable pain - this is why I find it hard to gather my thoughts. Thank you to all my friends and especially fellow mothers/women for your wise contribution to this thread.