[AkAngel]

In the "Is this what's it's like to be 13 years old" thread, there has been alot of talk about the decline of morals and values.

How do you differentiate between the decline of morals and changing morality? I ask because personally, my morals and values are not typical. In fact, I am quite sure that my behavior would often be attacked on moral grounds and yet, I consider myself to be a moral person.*

Let's digress a moment and offer some definitions. The term 'morality' is ambiguous by itself; there is descriptive morality and normative morality. Descriptive morality is morality accepted by a society or even an individual, while normative morality refers to an objective morality.

Because society evolves, so then does descriptive morality. It does little good trying to argue that the morality of my generation is better than the morality of a younger generation because sooner or later my generation will start to die off and hence, by sheer numbers within the society in which I live, I'll be wrong.

However, normative morality states that there is an objective morality and so, by sheer luck, my generation might have happened upon perfect morality and this new generation is screwing it up. I don't think this is very likely by the way.

Once upon a time, enjoying sex was immoral as sex was solely for procreation and enjoying it was proof of a poor character. Eventually, moral people were allowed to enjoy sex, as long as they were married before they did so and only did so with their spouses. Moving on, fewer and fewer people today think it is immoral to have unmarried sex within a dedicated and loving relationship. Who's right? Is there a normative morality that claims a final word on the subject?

The reason that I ask is that while I agree that a thirteen year old, even a willing one, probably shouldn't be getting groped on the bus - how about a seventeen year old? How about a seventeen year old in a darkened movie theatre? How about in the privacy of their own home? How about an unmarried 25 year old? Where's the line? Why is that line there?

I place little stock in 'because everyone knows it's wrong' because I've seen society get it wrong so many times - and history has seen much more than I. So what I would like to know is what morals and values are declining and why do you consider it a decline instead of a change.

Thank you.

*insomuch as I can wrap my head around the whole dichotomous/dualistic way of thinking

[NuckingFutz]

Good questions. What morals? Who is teaching morals/values now that teachers can't? The clergy? Parents? Sometimes. But ultimately it's the media because it is always out there. The media does not care about your child's value, only the value of his wallet.

[pachyderm]

How about this off the top of my head: moral is what tends towards the good of the race, or of life itself, in the long term.

Now do I have to define "good"? Advancement, flourishing, increasing capacity...

[Perna]

I would say it has to do with respect. Groping is never respectful in public (other persons have to witness and they may not wish to; the same goes for public nudity) and usually not in private unless there's clear communication that it would be welcomed.

Killing other people is not very respectful of them and, a great many of us are here because we had sexual experiences "too young" so that's a more scientific and practical matter, when is a human mature enough to deal with the emotional and other consequences of sex. It's nice that teens can take their babies to school now but, generally it's not so respectful of those paying taxes to literally have to pay for the teen's deliberate choice to disrespect.

[RRU96]

Dont do in public what you wouldnt do in front of your parents

[AkAngel]

Originally Posted by Perna

I would say it has to do with respect. Groping is never respectful in public (other persons have to witness and they may not wish to; the same goes for public nudity) and usually not in private unless there's clear communication that it would be welcomed.

This speaks to my point. In many places in Africa as well as some in scores of other locations around the globe, public nudity is common and there is often much more than public groping as well. Are we prepared to say that their entire culture is disrespectful? I'm going to guess that we would not - it's not very PC at the very least. So is it only disrespectful because our society says it is?

Originally Posted by Perna

Killing other people is not very respectful of them

I know this was said in jest, but I am a combat veteran who was paid to kill other people and was honored by my society for showing great skill at doing so. There are parades every year (Veterans Day) to show respect for people like myself who were better at it than whoever the government said were our enemies de jour. I agree that killing people isn't very respectful of them, but trying to show here that even something as obvious as murder can be held up and honored by a society.

Originally Posted by Perna

...and, a great many of us are here because we had sexual experiences "too young" so that's a more scientific and practical matter, when is a human mature enough to deal with the emotional and other consequences of sex.

Your last question is an interesting one. I've been all over the world and I've got to tell you, I've seen sixteen year olds in some countries that I thought were ready for parenthood and some countries in which I couldn't find a 26 year old who I thought was mature enough. Now granted, that is just one opinion, but different societies have different norms. I often think trauma is the result of a conflict with societal mores and norms moreso than the act itself.

Originally Posted by Perna

It's nice that teens can take their babies to school now but, generally it's not so respectful of those paying taxes to literally have to pay for the teen's deliberate choice to disrespect.

I agree, but it is difficult for me to expect a teen to respect the taxpayer and the added burden we are being forced to shoulder when that burden is insignificant next to the money we give corporate america for a bailout. The government is a lousy role model for respecting the taxpayers.

[AkAngel]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

How about this off the top of my head: moral is what tends towards the good of the race, or of life itself, in the long term.

No arguments here, but here's a point to ponder...

What society calls help or productive is an action or behavior that makes society stronger. I think that, amongst other things, it marginalizes the individual in a way that is both destructive to the individual and to society.

How many great thinkers, civil rights hero's, or moral stewards have been arrested and convicted by society only to have history vindicate them and demonize the socity that treated them so? Completely at random I picked a ten year period - from 2000 back through 1991; every winner of the Nobel Peace Prize was either arrested or exiled by their society's government during the actions which won them the Nobel Peace Prize - every one.

So, does this make it government that is immoral - or the society that allows them to stay in power? Or both? And then does it become immoral to help strengthen an immoral entity such as government or society?

Just thoughts.... so don't tell them where I live k?

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by AkAngel

No arguments here, but here's a point to ponder...

What society calls help or productive is an action or behavior that makes society stronger.

What society calls help or productive is an action or behavior that some in society think makes society (or is it them?) stronger. As you note, "society" can be wrong.

Oh yes, speaking of Nobel prizes, the only one awarded in the field of mental health was for the inventor of what was later called prefrontal lobotomy!

[lynn P.]

I put a trigger because some controversial subjects were brought up.

Originally Posted by AkAngel

In the "Is this what's it's like to be 13 years old" thread, there has been alot of talk about the decline of morals and values. I see you stole my thread - wondered why there was no activity lol (JK)

How do you differentiate between the decline of morals and changing morality? I ask because personally, my morals and values are not typical. In fact, I am quite sure that my behavior would often be attacked on moral grounds and yet, I consider myself to be a moral person.*

Let's digress a moment and offer some definitions. The term 'morality' is ambiguous by itself; there is descriptive morality and normative morality. Descriptive morality is morality accepted by a society or even an individual, while normative morality refers to an objective morality. Morals also differ around the world.

Because society evolves, so then does descriptive morality. It does little good trying to argue that the morality of my generation is better than the morality of a younger generation because sooner or later my generation will start to die off and hence, by sheer numbers within the society in which I live, I'll be wrong.

However, normative morality states that there is an objective morality and so, by sheer luck, my generation might have happened upon perfect morality and this new generation is screwing it up. I don't think this is very likely by the way.

Once upon a time, enjoying sex was immoral as sex was solely for procreation and enjoying it was proof of a poor character. Eventually, moral people were allowed to enjoy sex, as long as they were married before they did so and only did so with their spouses. Moving on, fewer and fewer people today think it is immoral to have unmarried sex within a dedicated and loving relationship. Who's right? Is there a normative morality that claims a final word on the subject?

The reason that I ask is that while I agree that a thirteen year old, even a willing one, probably shouldn't be getting groped on the bus - how about a seventeen year old? How about a seventeen year old in a darkened movie theatre? How about in the privacy of their own home? How about an unmarried 25 year old? Where's the line? Why is that line there? In an underage person, thank God we have laws, that state children should be protected from sexual touching. If a legal age person does it I still think it's morally wrong to subject other people riding the bus.Yesterday my kids went with my neighbor and her kids to watch some fireworks - the whole time, these 13 yr olds were making out in full view of the whole crowd. There were little kids there.

I place little stock in 'because everyone knows it's wrong' because I've seen society get it wrong so many times - and history has seen much more than I. So what I would like to know is what morals and values are declining and why do you consider it a decline instead of a change. I agree morals are subject to change. My own mother got married when she was 17 and my husband mother got married when she was 13. Even now there are polygamous communes that marry off 12 and 13 yr olds. I think it's fine for things to change as long as basic laws are enforced to protect children.

Thank you.

*insomuch as I can wrap my head around the whole dichotomous/dualistic way of thinking

Years ago, it used to be a crime to commit adultery -now I bet 70% of partners cheat. If this trend keeps going, will marriage eventually disappear. There has to be some kind of moral order in society, otherwise we all run around like a pack of monkey's.

Spanking used to accepted in mainstream society -now it's considered immoral. Children in other parts of the world have to work instead of going to school. Some young women in Africa and some parts of the Middle East have forced 'genital mutilation' performed on them. To those elders they justify this as moral, but to us its shocking.

The reason I wrote that thread is because I think think it's so sad 10+yr olds have to start complicating their lives when they're still kids by having sex. So does this mean societies evolving, where we should accept kids having sex? I hope not.

I think it easy to live morally - I was taught to be honest, kind to others, not to kill, don't steal. don't cheat and don't steal another woman's man. By choice I also don't drink or do drugs.

I think NF said it in a nutshell that there isn't enough emphasis at home and at school. The children spend more time watching TV and browsing the internet. Hollywood portrays and encourages that bad girl images. I'm amazed they even allow Family Guy on regular TV, with words like P****, V*****, etc.

I wish I had the answer and it's all very frightening from a parents point of view. All I want to do is raise my young girls to be educated strong women. I think relationships and sex complicated their life and makes them unfocused.

There's even groups on the internet that promote pedophelia - 'men who love boys' What's stopping us from running rampant where anything goes?

[AAAAA]

To me being moral is living my life the best way I can while making an effort not to hurt any other people. There is a definite difference between right and wrong and I try to do the right thing even when doing the wrong thing would be easier. People can quibble until the end of time about what is “right” but I’m a firm believer that everything you ever needed to know you learned in Kindergarten. Stealing is wrong, inflicting pain is wrong, etc.

My only “moral” objection to minors having sex is the following. Children are the natural consequence of sex. Can a 16 or 17 year old support a child financially and emotionally without being a burden to society these days? In some cases yes, but in most cases no. If one were able to remove the prospect of having children from this equation I would have no issue with an emotionally stable 16 year old being sexually active if they so wish. Not however, on a public school bus. There is a time and place for everything.

I do think that there is a decline in much of today’s society. In my opinion that decline comes in the form of lack of personal responsibility. We make so many excuses for bad behavior; everything is someone else’s fault. People seem to make decisions these days without thought to the consequences.

[NuckingFutz]

Reminds me of that movie "Pleasantville" where everything changes and even the mayor can't stop it. I think it is up to us this time to guide our children right from wrong. Yesterday I got to watch a child having a child. I was sad for that child.

[AAAAA]

That’s exactly it! We must educate our children to do the right thing… even when it’s hard. WE the parents! It is also my opinion that part of the breakdown in our society is that too many people have become lazy parents. NO ONE can teach a child as well/much as his/her parents.

I love my children with all of my heart and soul, I would lay my life down for them in a heartbeat without a second thought. I will love them no matter what they would ever do. I make sure they know that each and every day. BUT BUT BUT if they make a mistake they must accept the consequence of that mistake! It’s not the MISTAKE that counts; it is what YOU do after the mistake. We’re all human and have errors in judgment.

Once upon a time, children learned the accepted mores of our society by example.
(they watched their parents)
Things are changing rapidly, our economy requires most households to have both parents working.

Where is the time, and where are the parents for these children to learn accountability, integrity, compassion, and all the other good stuff???

They turn to the media, modern technology (purchased by the parents), and peers to be their example.

There is a decline in the time these kids get to be with their parents, and learn by example. JMO---------------------------theo

[thine_self_untrue]

Black. White. Right. Wrong. I'd like to think if the world was so simple, we'd have figure it out a little better.

[50guy]

The fact that morals are looked at differently around the world really has no bearing on the situation here in the USA. We are a nation of laws and thereis a process for changing laws. Some laws on the books are not enforced because of political correctness. Some should not be enforced because they are old laws and don't make sense in todays society. All that being said....our morality has been slipping away a little at a time as very few care enough to teach the younger that there is right and wrong. I don't care what other countries do....most of them are 3rd world and full of disease, poverty and oppression. My concern is for my country and for my society and those that have no morals are a problem. The anything goes crowd has reeked havoc on my country's children through the education and justice systems.
The farther we go down this road, immorality, the longer we will reap the sorrow and consequences of it. Disease, poverty, dispair, oppression, child abuse, dysfunctional families, domestic violence and many other problems too long to list.

[pachyderm]

So the past was better than the present, eh? In all respects? I can think of a few instances in which the country's "morals" did not used to be so great...

[AAAAA]

I don’t necessarily believe that the past is better than the present in its entirety. I don’t know how we can become more enlightened and at the same time more in the dark.

In my grandmother’s day a man that had a child that he didn’t take care of faced repercussions even at his job. People were expected to behave a certain way even when they weren’t on the clock. If they did something after work that shamed the company they could/would be immediately fired. Now we have lawsuits for wrongful termination when a person is fired for calling in too many times. I UNDERSTAND why the laws were passed, but the creeps rode the coattails of legitimate complaints and somewhere we lost common sense.

Somewhere along the way, parents quit teach values and morals and made excuses for their child’s behavior. And children quit caring how they were viewed in the public eye.

When we moved to Japan some 23 years ago, I was absolutely shocked to see vending machines with alcohol in them on street corners as common as soda machines. I asked our guide what prevented the teens from just helping themselves. He responded “honor, they would never dream of shaming their parents in that way.” As a society, I think we’ve lost our honor.

[NuckingFutz]

Texas gets 4 billion dollars to teach abstenance in public schools. It costs 1 billion to medically treat underage pregnancies and STDs. It is still not right, but in the eyes of most polititions, 3 million is a pretty nice chunk of change.

[50guy]

The past was a hard time economically and depending on which time period it was down right immoral. We are supposed to learn from history and for a long time we did, now I believe we are slipping into another time period of decadence which has been visited upon us in the past.

Originally Posted by pachyderm

So the past was better than the present, eh? In all respects? I can think of a few instances in which the country's "morals" did not used to be so great...

[El-ahrairah]

I stopped questioning these things long ago because I realized it all boils down to opinion on right and wrong and to be opinions are never right or wrong because they are opinions. lol.

I don't know, these things I can take days to state my opinion on but at the end of the say there is still the no such thing as right and wrong xD and then im like baa!

[A_Long_ways]

In the USA at least, I blame the lack of morals on capitalism. What we have in America is not a true form of capitalism anymore, the biggest companies set the standards and the playing field for the rest of the country. Is it moral to sieze a persons home because they missed one payment on it? I read a story today about a soldier currently stationed in Iraq that had his home foreclosed on over $800. The money factor brings all senses of human compassion out of the element and places all morals on profit. If you're making profit, you are rewarded. If you are keeping your morals and objecting with the companies obscene policies, you are fired.

I encounted this in my last line of work. I was managing apartments in NYC. There was a sweet old lady that lived on the top floor of one of the buildings I was managing. She had been there for many years and was rent controlled, paying $130 a month while most others in identical apartments were paying around $1100. I was instructed by my boss to "Find any way to evict her from the apartment." She had done nothing wrong, broken no laws, but since her rent was so low he wanted me to find a way to get her out. Boldly, and stupidly, I refused. I plead my case to him, trying to bring out any sort of human element that was still within him, but it was gone. He was a hollow man with nothing but dollar signs in his eyes. He found another employee willing to do the job I refused. Within 2 months, the old lady was evicted on a loophole that they wouldn't even explain to me. "Don't worry about it" I was told. I never found out why she was evicted.

This is the connection I see between declining morals and capitalism, and this is on a very small scale. If there is someone who has moral objections to the task you require, find someone else for the task. That is my own experience at least, but you need not look further than the media for further examples. Our society is pushing dolls called "Bratz" on our young girls. These things look like hookers that you would see on 42nd street 10 years ago. Huge slutty boots, faces caked with makeup, short skirts and belly shirts. And this is what our children are emulating, and all in the name of the almighty dollar. Not to mention these "musicians" these days that speak of nothing but sex. Sure, there were songs alluding to sex in the past, but these days the straight up say these vulgar messages that are going straight into the childrens heads.

Another easy example is the banks. These banks have absolutely NO compassion for any human being. If you are not playing 100% by their rules, they will ruin you. They will straight up take your home and not bat an eye! Business as usual, no compassion, no care for your fellow human, only the drive for profit.

When I was young, I remember the mom & pop stores. I remember the pizzaria owned by a family of Italian immigrants I used to go to every friday for dinner with my family. Thankfully I still have a good pizza place to go to, but nearly all of them have been wiped out by Domino's, Pizza Hut, and Poppa Johns. (off topic but they all taste terrible, I sincerely recommend coming to NY and having a slice of some authentic pizza).

We're a society driven not by compassion, not by caring or consideration for your fellow man, but by profit. Profit will lead people to drop their morals in a heartbeat. We went from a wonderful country where honest hardworking people could carve out a living for themselves, to a country where those same people are FORCED to do (what I consider) morally wrong things. I kept my morals in my situation, but I lost my job. Do I regret it? Not a bit. While I was working there I recieved comments from the tennants telling me I was the best manager they had ever had, the most involved and understanding. Those few compliments to me made losing the job almost a good thing. It proved to myself that I stuck to the values that I came into the job with, and no amount of money can give you the self respect and reassurance of self that a good deed can.

I fear I veered off topic a bit, I guess the ultimate point of my post is in todays society a lot of people can have their morals bought out. Once the morals of adults are sacrificed, it's only a matter of time before it trickles down to the youth, as the youth always seeks to emulate and improve upon the past generations. I fear this nation will turn into nothing but a giant accounting firm in a few generations, tossing human compassion to the backseat for the almighty dollar. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

[Timgt5]

For twelve years, you have been asking: Who is John Galt? This is John Galt speaking. I am the man who loves his life. I am the man who does not sacrifice his love or his values. I am the man who has deprived you of victims and thus has destroyed your world, and if you wish to know why you are perishing-you who dread knowledge-I am the man who will now tell you.” The chief engineer was the only one able to move; he ran to a television set and struggled frantically with its dials. But the screen remained empty; the speaker had not chosen to be seen. Only his voice filled the airways of the country-of the world, thought the chief engineer-sounding as if he were speaking here, in this room, not to a group, but to one man; it was not the tone of addressing a meeting, but the tone of addressing a mind.
“You have heard it said that this is an age of moral crisis. You have said it yourself, half in fear, half in hope that the words had no meaning. You have cried that man’s sins are destroying the world and you have cursed human nature for its unwillingness to practice the virtues you demanded. Since virtue, to you, consists of sacrifice, you have demanded more sacrifices at every successive disaster. In the name of a return to morality, you have sacrificed all those evils which you held as the cause of your plight. You have sacrificed justice to mercy. You have sacrificed independence to unity. You have sacrificed reason to faith. You have sacrificed wealth to need. You have sacrificed self-esteem to self-denial. You have sacrificed happiness to duty.
“You have destroyed all that which you held to be evil and achieved all that which you held to be good. Why, then, do you shrink in horror from the sight of the world around you? That world is not the product of your sins, it is the product and the image of your virtues. It is your moral ideal brought into reality in its full and final perfection. You have fought for it, you have dreamed of it, and you have wished it, and I-I am the man who has granted you your wish.
“Your ideal had an implacable enemy, which your code of morality was designed to destroy. I have withdrawn that enemy. I have taken it out of your way and out of your reach. I have removed the source of all those evils you were sacrificing one by one. I have ended your battle. I have stopped your motor. I have deprived your world of man’s mind.
“Men do not live by the mind, you say? I have withdrawn those who do. The mind is impotent, you say? I have withdrawn those whose mind isn’t. There are values higher than the mind, you say? I have withdrawn those for whom there aren’t.
“While you were dragging to your sacrificial altars the men of justice, of independence, of reason, of wealth, of self-esteem-I beat you to it, I reached them first. I told them the nature of the game you were playing and the nature of that moral code of yours, which they had been too innocently generous to grasp. I showed them the way to live by another morality-mine. It is mine that they chose to follow.
“All the men who have vanished, the men you hated, yet dreaded to lose, it is I who have taken them away from you. Do not attempt to find us. We do not choose to be found. Do not cry that it is our duty to serve you. We do not recognize such duty. Do not cry that you need us. We do not consider need a claim. Do not cry that you own us. You don’t. Do not beg us to return. We are on strike, we, the men of the mind.
“We are on strike against self-immolation. We are on strike against the creed of unearned rewards and unrewarded duties. We are on strike against the dogma that the pursuit of one’s happiness is evil. We are on strike against the doctrine that life is guilt.
“There is a difference between our strike and all those you’ve practiced for centuries: our strike consists, not of making demands, but of granting them. We are evil, according to your morality. We have chosen not to harm you any longer. We are useless, according to your economics. We have chosen not to exploit you any longer. We are dangerous and to be shackled, according to your politics. We have chosen not to endanger you, nor to wear the shackles any longer. We are only an illusion, according to your philosophy. We have chosen not to blind you any longer and have left you free to face reality-the reality you wanted, the world as you see it now, a world without mind.
“We have granted you everything you demanded of us, we who had always been the givers, but have only now understood it. We have no demands to present to you, no terms to bargain about, no compromise to reach. You have nothing to offer us. We do not need you.
“Are you now crying: No, this was not what you wanted? A mindless world of ruins was not your goal? You did not want us to leave you? You moral cannibals, I know that you’ve always known what it was that you wanted. But your game is up, because now we know it, too.
“Through centuries of scourges and disasters, brought about by your code of morality, you have cried that your code had been broken, that the scourges were punishment for breaking it, that men were too weak and too selfish to spill all the blood it required. You damned man, you damned existence, you damned this earth, but never dared to question your code. Your victims took the blame and struggled on, with your curses as reward for their martyrdom-while you went on crying that your code was noble, but human nature was not good enough to practice it. And no one rose to ask the question: Good?-by what standard?

The above is an excerpt from a much larger speech made by the Character John Galt, in a novel called Atlas Shrugged.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Timgt5

The above is an excerpt from a much larger speech made by the Character John Galt, in a novel called Atlas Shrugged.

We have heard of him/it.