[Phreak]

Originally Posted by Nikole2718

Should people let people do whatever they want with their bodies? <-- That's what you are asking me. Yes. Yes they should.

( http://forums.psychcentral.com/gener...-makeup-9.html )

Personally I'd have to argue that as a society we generally deem this to be no.

A simple example to illistrate the point would be that seriously suicidal individuals are committed for treatment involuntarily to prevent them from killing themselves.

That didnt occur to me ... I was thinking more what I see everyday: mass tatt coverage, piercings galore and multi colored hair

[Phreak]

I thought of another great example...

Should we allow a pregnant female to take drugs that are knowingly going to seriously affect the unborn child I.e. Cause limb mutations or brain developmental problems?

...It's at least thought provoking isn't it?

[Phreak]

Originally Posted by Rose Panachée

That didnt occur to me ... I was thinking more what I see everyday: mass tatt coverage, piercings galore and multi colored hair

I don't think that even I'm talented enough to win an argument against allowing people to do that...

Hmm I suppose you could potentially attempt to argue that they were all forms of self mutilation and symptomatic of underlying psychological issues. If you could successfully establish that if you treated the issues, that would mean that they'd no longer felt the need to visually permanently modify themselves and consequently if you had allowed them to do so that it'd be a negatively psychologically damaging reminder...

...Doesn't stop me trying though

[sarek]

In essence the answer should be yes. I can see three main exceptions:

1. there is a limit where the rights of others are affected
2. there must be certainty that whatever the person has decided is based on a free choice, not unduly affected by internal or external agents.
3. as for the mother with child: A mother can decide for herself, not for the unborn individual within her. That is a separate person and she has limited rights to decide for that individual.

I would argue tats, piercings, multicolored hair, etc. can be seen as expressions of one's self. And yes, I have one piercing and several smaller tattoos, which I love. Sometimes in teenagers all of the above can be seen as just plain rebellion, and they will grow out of it. I had more piercings but grew out of them, no biggie.

I do think if you wish to take your own life you should be allowed to w/out being committed...I don't like the idea of being forced against my will to conform to society's norm of "wanting to live and be happy" if I were in too much pain emotionally or physically.

I do not agree a mother should be allowed to do whatever she wishes to with her body with an unborn baby inside of her (assuming she plans on carrying it to term). In that case, her choices are affecting another life as well and may very well be causing unrepairable damage. But I still see it all the time, pregnant women drinking and or smoking...it's not like it's been made illegal. A certain responsibility is left up to the individual to take care of the life growing inside them.

That's why I think you should have to take parenting classes and have a "license" before having a child. Oh, and get a dog first, please, to see if you are even ready for the responsibility of pet ownership, let alone a child. And you should have to get a license to own a pet before you do that as well. Basically I don't trust people to take care of anyone else, not even themselves. But I do think they have the fundamental right to decide what they want to do with their bodies.

I have no idea if I went off topic or not...sorry if I did, just kinda rolled with it.
Great topic though, thanks.

[spondiferous]

Haha, I'm totally on board with a licensing program for potential parents.

Originally Posted by Phreak

( http://forums.psychcentral.com/gener...-makeup-9.html )

Personally I'd have to argue that as a society we generally deem this to be no.

A simple example to illistrate the point would be that seriously suicidal individuals are committed for treatment involuntarily to prevent them from killing themselves.

Dude, I love debating. I will own you, muhahahaha. Joking.
To live is an option, not an obligation. If someone wants to take their life, for whatever reason, who are you to tell them no? I'm not saying that everyone should go commit suicide, I'm saying that everyone has an option. You can't/shouldn't take that away from them.

[Phreak]

Originally Posted by sorta_fairytale

I would argue tats, piercings, multicolored hair, etc. can be seen as expressions of one's self. And yes, I have one piercing and several smaller tattoos, which I love. Sometimes in teenagers all of the above can be seen as just plain rebellion, and they will grow out of it. I had more piercings but grew out of them, no biggie.

I'm going to make no attempt at arguing this one further as it's a lost cause, as I essentially agree with you and have no other counter arguments coming to mind

Originally Posted by sorta_fairytale

I do think if you wish to take your own life you should be allowed to w/out being committed...I don't like the idea of being forced against my will to conform to society's norm of "wanting to live and be happy" if I were in too much pain emotionally or physically.

What about when it's a passing phase because somebody hasn"t been taking their medication and they're stable and HAPPY when they do?

Originally Posted by sorta_fairytale

I do not agree a mother should be allowed to do whatever she wishes to with her body with an unborn baby inside of her (assuming she plans on carrying it to term). In that case, her choices are affecting another life as well and may very well be causing unrepairable damage. But I still see it all the time, pregnant women drinking and or smoking...it's not like it's been made illegal. A certain responsibility is left up to the individual to take care of the life growing inside them.

Agreed!

Originally Posted by sorta_fairytale

That's why I think you should have to take parenting classes and have a "license" before having a child. Oh, and get a dog first, please, to see if you are even ready for the responsibility of pet ownership, let alone a child. And you should have to get a license to own a pet before you do that as well. Basically I don't trust people to take care of anyone else, not even themselves. But I do think they have the fundamental right to decide what they want to do with their bodies.

I have no idea if I went off topic or not...sorry if I did, just kinda rolled with it.
Great topic though, thanks.

I agreea, parenting licenses! Finally somebody on my wave length

Who'd get to decide and what would the terms be though? What would happen if people conceive without a license?

[uncreativeartist]

One's body and self is just that, theirs to do what they want with. As long as someone else's rights are being taken away then I say have at it. Get tattoos, piercings or whatever.

Yes there should be testing and a license for people to be able to have children. Ahhhhhh kids and abortion. If you had sex whether you remember it or not you made the choice now deal with the consequences (put the kid up for adoption so someone more deserving and mature can adopt the kid and give it a chance in life). Not that I am against abortion, I think it should be allowed especially after a rape. But too many people see $$$ when they pop out a kid. They get a free ride and the rest of us pay for it, I should not have to pay for a kid I did not help make.

Suicide is another thing I think that should be allowed. Again as long as someone else's rights aren't impinged upon or hurt or killed in the process. Not all of us in this want to be here nor asked to be here. Why should we have to suffer with the rest of the world?

[Phreak]

Originally Posted by Nikole2718

Dude, I love debating. I will own you, muhahahaha. Joking.

Mwahahaha give it your best shot!

Originally Posted by Nikole2718

To live is an option, not an obligation. If someone wants to take their life, for whatever reason, who are you to tell them no? I'm not saying that everyone should go commit suicide, I'm saying that everyone has an option. You can't/shouldn't take that away from them.

What if the suicidal person is happy when on their meds, are they not entitled to protection from themselves?

What about a suicidal pregnant woman with a potentially viable feotus?

[LiteraryLark]

If it involves anything controversial such as permanent decisions I should not publicly state them, because who the hell has the right to think and make my decisions for me?

Originally Posted by uncreativeartist

Suicide is another thing I think that should be allowed. Again as long as someone else's rights aren't impinged upon or hurt or killed in the process. Not all of us in this want to be here nor asked to be here. Why should we have to suffer with the rest of the world?

Interesting.

So say for example someone joined this forum and asked a question like, I'm thinking of killing myself, should I do it because it feels the right thing to do?

What would your response be to that?

[Phreak]

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

Interesting.

So say for example someone joined this forum and asked a question like, I'm thinking of killing myself, should I do it because it feels the right thing to do?

What would your response be to that?

Advising them that content like that isn't allowed on the forum and to refer them to professional help?

Okay.. What I'd actually do is to try to get them engaged with a direct conversation e.g. Via skype. To talk to them about things and to essentially talk them down from the edge. It's important to remember that sometimes people are feeling suicidal because they need attention. I know that's not always the case, and I know from personal experience that when you're truly suicidal it's definitely quite separate so no lynch mobs please

I think content like that is allowed. It's just threats of doing it.

The reason I brought it up though, this attitude that people should be entitled to commit suicide. So if someone is sitting over a building and threatening to jump, the response would be " no problem mate, you do what you want if you want to jump you go ahead, it's your body ".

I don't think it would really happen in reality. And if someone did openly say that they'd be seen as kind of callous.

[Phreak]

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

I think content like that is allowed. It's just threats of doing it.

The reason I brought it up though, this attitude that people should be entitled to commit suicide. So if someone is sitting over a building and threatening to jump, the response would be " no problem mate, you do what you want if you want to jump you go ahead, it's your body ".

I don't think it would really happen in reality. And if someone did openly say that they'd be seen as kind of callous.

If they were on a forum asking that question in the first place they're unlikely to be an immediate danger to themselves anyway.

Actually telling somebody to do it may actually make them realise they really don't want too - or it'd be the final catalyst.

Ultimately if they really wanted to die they'd jump immediately. The fact they're there still contemplating means they're unsure themselves - not that that doesn't mean that they wouldn't jump.

[Phreak]

Originally Posted by DrSkipper

If it involves anything controversial such as permanent decisions I should not publicly state them, because who the hell has the right to think and make my decisions for me?

God?

[LiteraryLark]

Originally Posted by Phreak

God?

Well, then a lot of people on this forum think they're God.

[Phreak]

Originally Posted by DrSkipper

Well, then a lot of people on this forum think they're God.

Maybe they think they're God beause they are? I mean ultimately aren't we all Gods over our own lives?

[LiteraryLark]

Originally Posted by Phreak

Maybe they think they're God beause they are? I mean ultimately aren't we all Gods over our own lives?

Yes, over our own lives, but does that mean we have to force others to do as we please because we believe we are right?

[Phreak]

Originally Posted by DrSkipper

Yes, over our own lives, but does that mean we have to force others to do as we please because we believe we are right?

No, but assuming we all live in democracies then the will of the majority prevails over the will of the few - in theory anyway!

People are forced to educate their children.

Children are forced to do lots of things, is that fair?

[LiteraryLark]

Yes but when I am making a major decision for myself, by myself, it does not seem fair for the majority to make the decision for me, especially if it's because I am young. An adult, but still young.

But yes, I do see how it is fair.

Originally Posted by Phreak

Mwahahaha give it your best shot!

Will do.

What if the suicidal person is happy when on their meds, are they not entitled to protection from themselves?

They are, they are indeed entitled to protection from themselves. This is when family members, professionals and friends get involved. . .

What about a suicidal pregnant woman with a potentially viable feotus?

This is kind of a different topic, but whom ever is in this position should not have gotten pregnant knowing they are suicidal. Abortions are always an option as well, she should have considered this option when she first realized she was carrying a child, while unhappy with her life. But the plot always has a twist, the pregnancy might give her joy and she might find a purpose to live. Also, again, this is where family members, professionals, and friends get involved.
P.S.
I might sound mean or harsh, but none of it is to offend anyone.

[LiteraryLark]

Originally Posted by Nikole2718

This is kind of a different topic, but whom ever is in this position should not have gotten pregnant knowing they are suicidal. Abortions are always an option as well, she should have considered this option when she first realized she was carrying a child, while unhappy with her life. But the plot always has a twist, the pregnancy might give her joy and she might find a purpose to live. Also, again, this is where family members, professionals, and friends get involved.
P.S.
I might sound mean or harsh, but none of it is to offend anyone.

Suicidal thinking does not always mean suicide attempts, and abortion may not be an option for her if it is against her beliefs. And you are correct, the pregnancy may give her a purpose to live and she may have outside help from family members and professionals.

[Phreak]

Actually it's taking your statement that was less specific than you intended and exploiting that fact to prove it technically to be something that you admit defeat on

Basically your argument is that we shouldn't allow her to commit suicide especially in consideration to her unborn child and that she should be helped by friends, family and professions. If she doesn't want to be, she should be forced to, shouldn't she?