[seeker1950]

I had posted earlier about school uniforms. I teach at a middle school, and we have the students with their cleavage haning out. There seems to be a fashion right now of the camisole with shirt over top, showing half the breasts and cleavage. I'm guessing the girls know what they're doing in dressing like this, and I guess also it's the fashion. I'm uncomfortable confronting students about this, so I just ignore it. But I work on the same team with a woman who is like a "boob hawk" about it, and confronts the girls constantly. I really don't like this woman, who is very "righteous" about everything, yet we do have a dress code which these girls are obviously ignoring.
Today, I actually challenged this teacher, in a way, as she confronted a new student, just enrolled today, about being in his locker at a non-locker time. I said to her, in front of the student, "He's new today." She didn't like that, and as I walked away she gave him her lecture.
I should add here that this woman is ALWAYS right, always out-talks others, mostly about herself. I've worked with her now for several years, but lately, I seem to be cutting her off. Don't know if my decrease in the Paxil, but I suspect so!
Anyway, how do you think the cleavage/boob thing should be handled!?
Patty

[Timgt5]

I had to stop myself from laughing at that last line, but I understand you are frustrated on the one hand you are trying to promote the values of the school, but at the same time not act as a dictator to the students either. The other person seems to come from a very authoritarian old school of teaching. I think the best way to address this is with some discretion. Arrange a few minutes of one on one with the young ladies in question. Explain to them that if they dress in this way that the boys will treat them as no more than objects of conquest and not real human beings with ideas and intellect. Advise them that socializing at school is a secondary function and that most importantly they are here to work. This again should not be done out loud in front of other students. Humiilation is not a good way to dicispline young people.

Um, it really depends I guess..
I mean, what do you consider cleavage showing and boobs popping out?

Because I'm a teenager and IMO there are alot of rather low-cut shirts that are very flattering towards a girl's figue but then again they could be seen as being too adult or offensive to some people.

[seeker1950]

Ah, well, good suggestions, Tim...I doubt these girls would even process such suggestions...especially coming form the kooky art teacher. But, this will, no doubt, become a topic of conversation in one of our upcoming Faculty Senate forums. I think a chat with the school counselor with the girls would be more beneficial, as she is very good at relating to this age group.
Thanks
Patty

[seeker1950]

LOL, Tim, I just read my last sentence in the initial post, and I can see how that sounded funny!:Ponder:

[pegasus]

I saw everyone looking at your thread on the whos online, so I had to come and have a look!

You sound like a lovely teacher Patty!

[bebop]

I think the school principle should enforce the dress code. another good reason for uniforms. yes girls know what they are doing. in today's times girls want to be sexy. that is ok if you are over 18! I have seen very very young girl dress way over the top in that way!

[seeker1950]

Thanks for all your replies, Kaika, Bebop, Pegasus, Tim!
I do know that girls of the middle school age are very insecure about their own appearance and sexuality. Confronting them, especially in front of others, as the "boob hawk" does, seems inappropriate to me. Despite their attire, these are usually good girls in class. I have never had problems with them, and some of them are quite creative in Art. So, yes, it's hard for me to think of approaching them about their boobs!
Patty

[pegasus]

They all walk around with their bums hanging out round here!

[lenjan]

My son got harassed by a particular teacher nonstop for his hair, which was never longer than shoulder length. He hasn't had a haircut since he graduated and it's now halfway down his back, LOL. His adoptive mom teaches at the same school he went to and is good friends with the other teacher, and the last time he was home, he went up there and had lunch with the two of them. I never did hear how she took his "new" look, LOL.

[sabby]

Originally Posted by seeker1950

Anyway, how do you think the cleavage/boob thing should be handled!?
Patty

In the immortal words of the Wicked Witch of the East "These things must be handled very delicately......"

Sorry ... I just couldn't resist it....but seriously.....we have to remember who is buying the clothes for these middle schoolers....the PARENTS! And the kids are watching the television and seeing everything in the magazines and ads on billboards....what sells??? They human body...at any age.

That said, I am also of the belief that just because a woman child dresses a bit provacativley doesn't mean they are to be disrespected...all we can do as adults and teachers is to teach by example, lead by example and show we care as best we can.

I don't envy you in this (((((( seeker ))))))). Maybe your decrease in paxil is just what is needed to let this other teacher know she's over the top???

[I_WMD]

With all the self esteem issuses young girls experience at this time of their lifes ??? The fudging on the dress code thing and the use of clothes could just as easily be a boost to their image they scrutinize in the mirror every morning .

[seeker1950]

Sabby said, "I don't envy you in this (((((( seeker ))))))). Maybe your decrease in paxil is just what is needed to let this other teacher know she's over the top??? "

First of all, this woman, fellow teacher, will never see herself as in the wrong in any way. She is, as I said before, ALWAYS right. It is also hard to confront someone who is on the same team. I do know that many fellow team members just tolerate her, but fall short of disagreeing with her. The two administrators, who have had to put up with her bringing students to the office for numerous minor infractions, HAVE made a point of commenting about this in a general manner in past Faculty Senate meetings. Though these comments were pointed at her nit-picking, I doubt she recognized it.

Ahhh...my decrease in Paxil....may be the thing that prompts a confrontation! I really have noticed a difference, to the positive, in my teaching performance in the past week due to this decrease. Whereas, I used to sluff off my students' raucous or disruptive behavior getting all the students stirred up, I now just quietly direct them to move to a seat near me to resume the assignment. This really does the trick! Still, I'm not inclined to confront a 7th grader about her boobs!
Patty

[I_WMD]

Originally Posted by _sabby_

In the immortal words of the Wicked Witch of the East "These things must be handled very delicately......"

Sorry ... I just couldn't resist it....but seriously.....we have to remember who is buying the clothes for these middle schoolers....the PARENTS! And the kids are watching the television and seeing everything in the magazines and ads on billboards....what sells??? They human body...at any age.

That said, I am also of the belief that just because a woman child dresses a bit provacativley doesn't mean they are to be disrespected...all we can do as adults and teachers is to teach by example, lead by example and show we care as best we can.

I don't envy you in this (((((( seeker ))))))). Maybe your decrease in paxil is just what is needed to let this other teacher know she's over the top???

errrrrrrm Seeker1950 ????? aaaaaaaaaa,,,, I not say the " I don' t envy .......

[seeker1950]

Originally Posted by I_WMD

errrrrrrm Seeker1950 ????? aaaaaaaaaa,,,, I not say the " I don' t envy .......

I corrected that, WMD...saw it after writing and went back and edited.
Thank
Patty

[Slippers]

Sounds like maybe the topic could be brought up in a teacher meeting? Perhaps come to some agreement among the teachers on how to address the dress..so to speak. I'm thinking perhaps the "violators" need to have a copy of the dress code sent home for parent's signature. Clearly, as a previous poster mentioned, the parents are purchasing clothing which doesn't jive with the rules. Or the kids are changing at school....I know that's what I did!

Slippers...who covers her girls now

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by bebop

yes girls know what they are doing.

No, they don't.

[(JD)]

IMO if it's a school rule, then the adults should -in private, such as a meeting or in the lounge- agree to enforce it, and then do so, showing a concerted force.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by seeker1950

First of all, this woman, fellow teacher, will never see herself as in the wrong in any way. She is, as I said before, ALWAYS right.

People who act that way are very insecure -- they have to project an image that is not true, and they know it. It might be interesting to deal with her if you can keep in mind that she is insecure.

[AAAAA]

Things are definately a bit different here. The principals are in the middle of main hall (all students must pass in order to get to classes/lockers no matter what door they come in). He's not only there to greet the students but checking dress codes. "Jenna, you're going to need to put a shirt on over that, Tom that shirt needs to be turned inside out if you're going to wear it."

High school kids are sent home to change if wearing inappropriate clothing. Our elementary/Jr high school has a "clothes closet" that serves many purposes. Changes for the younger students in the even of accident. Clothing available for immediate distribution in the event of an emergency (ie house burns down), for those children that forget their gym clothes, and for those students that wear inappropriate clothing. One day of wearing a sweatshirt from the clothes closet is all the glam queens need. After that, they bring their own sweaters to cover themselves.

In my opinion, the teachers should not be involved in this. I think that this responsibility falls to the pricipal and vice principals. I imagine in the larger schools this must be a daunting task. But if your forced to be in the position, I think discussing it in a staff meeting is a good idea, present a united front.

[seeker1950]

Thanks AAAA, for the insight into this re/prinicpals. I just think our principals would rather not deal with it. Our head principal greets every student entering the building in the morning, and surely sees how they are dressed. It is then passed down to the teachers to deal with. I'm uncomfortable doing this, though if it were an outrageous violation, I would probably send them to the office.
The coworker who polices this really rankles me, but it's a personal reaction on my part. Today, after her confrontations of many female students this week, I did notice they were dressing more modestly. I think she told them they would be sent to the office and a message sent home about their attire.

And a bit off topic, to Pachyderm...this woman seems anything but insecure, however, I did notice that she avoided other teachers from a previous school where she worked. They, unlike the faculty at my school who are very laid back, put her thru the wringer! I work next door to her, have noon duty with her, and walk out to leave with her. Today, while leaving, I listened the whole way out about her, her family, her plans, etc. I dare not interject anything off topic in the conversation, as it goes ignored. I've learned best not to converse at all. I smell Narcissist!
Patty

[AAAAA]

(((((seeker))))) I think without the support of the principals you'd be spinning your wheels anyway. I can relate to your co-worker, I don't know if it's the OCD or a personality flaw, but I'm a by the rules kind of gal; if I have to follow them so do you. But then again, I'm with Tim, humiliation is never an acceptable form of discipline.

[jacqueline1110]

Arrange a few minutes of one on one with the young ladies in question. Explain to them that if they dress in this way that the boys will treat them as no more than objects of conquest and not real human beings with ideas and intellect. Advise them that socializing at school is a secondary function and that most importantly they are here to work. This again should not be done out loud in front of other students. Humiilation is not a good way to dicispline young people.[/QUOTE]

You know how to handle teens and situations with tact and respect, but I strongly disagree with pointing out to the young women how the boys will think of them or treat them. The boys may or may not treat them that way, or they may have them falling all over them. But that is not for anyone else to make negative assumptions and pass them on to young women. Also, I know fashion, I'm in the industry, but maybe someone ought to teach the boys not to be so disrespectful, not the other way around. I"m 40+ have two daughters in their 20's and couldn't disagree more. Maybe the teacher could put a positive spin on it instead.

Also, aren't their other things to worry about in education rather than how to wear a shirt?

[Timgt5]

You know how to handle teens and situations with tact and respect, but I strongly disagree with pointing out to the young women how the boys will think of them or treat them. The boys may or may not treat them that way, or they may have them falling all over them. But that is not for anyone else to make negative assumptions and pass them on to young women. Also, I know fashion, I'm in the industry, but maybe someone ought to teach the boys not to be so disrespectful, not the other way around. I"m 40+ have two daughters in their 20's and couldn't disagree more. Maybe the teacher could put a positive spin on it instead.

Also, aren't their other things to worry about in education rather than how to wear a shirt?[/quote]

We are talking teenage boys here, my wording may have been a bit strong but my point is that the media unfortunatly has brainwashed more and more of our young women to thinking their only value is in being sexy and looking provacative. I agree with you in principal but I also live in the real world. You can preach to these boys about self control but raging testosterone is a hard thing to overcome at that age, just a fact of life and biology. Sad but true.

The standards that apply at professional office space should apply at school. Women where I work have been privately warned about showing excessive cleavage, it causes discomfort which leads to distraction and inefficiency.

There are plenty of difficulties with education. School is not a night club or a fashion show, it should be a very serious place where young folks are being groomed and trained to become effective citizens. Baggy pants, low cut shirts, too tight hip-hugging pants and general sloveness, belong elsewhere.

I have 2 children as you all know. One being a 17 year old boy. I can say with out a doubt If a girl came into school weraing a low cut shirt he would look. I think its called hormones. Which rage at that age.
My other child is a 20 year old girl. When she was in school you followed the dress code or were given a shirt or your parents were called. All teachers and the principle inforced the code. I was lucky i was never called.
I can say now . Stlyes of cloths have changed in the last few years and low cut is out in all the stores the kids shop at. So it really is pushed down thier throats by media , magazines they read. And what is in the stores.
The one thing i can say we as parents are responsable for how out kids walk out the door in the morning. What they are wearing. Its really falls right in our laps.
I know kids can take other cloths and change on the bus , in the bathroom. But when that phone call comes as it should if they are dressed in correct or do something out of line at school. Its our job as parents to face the music so to speak.
As i have done many a time with my son. Once on his B day. I think last year. He left the house fully dressed. AHHH I got a phone call from the bus driver as a heads up that my son went into school in his ,.......yes...in his underwear get it Birthday suit. His school is a hour and half away. He did this with out me knowing, with out the bus driver knowing till too late. You'll love this ....it took till second period before he was sent to the principles office. Now how can that happen. One teacher choose to ignore it. How can you ignore that.
Sorry got carryed away here......
My point is kids are kids . They follow whats on tv and what is sold in stores
We as parents need to see how our kids leave school. Then the school needs to do thier job too.
Also we as parents teachers everyone need to reliaze kids are going to try to get away with as much as they can at times. Like my son.
I know this did not help much I hope alittle
Muffy