Help with 20 yo daughter

I love this advice!

Thank you for your reply. So, her $500 a month room was ending on December 31st, 2019. She asked if she could come home until April, when her new house was going to be ready. Unfortunately, with covid she lost her job and the house fell through.

There's a few things at play here. First of all, I do not get the united front from my husband that I need. Second of all, I agree that she acts like an equal. Giving her time outs or asking her to leave does not work. She simply refuses to leave. That night, I was the one to retreat to my bedroom to escape her. She simply fronts you up.

I feel like unless I had supernanny or a psych expert in my ear telling me exactly how to respond I simply don't know what to do and blame myself. Part of me thinks I cannot manage this and I simply need to be not living with her ever again.

To add a little context as to what she is like, she has a fiancee and the other night she came home with him and asked us to mute the TV and then she proceeded to rant to me and her dad with the fiancee sitting there, saying he had lied to her. It was absolutely awkward and uncomfortable and completley inappropriate. A few days later they are hanging out again. It's so toxic it's untrue...

I'm fed up with it all. I tried. I took mentall illness classes and we went to therapy for years. I feel like I tried...

It’s good news that she holds jobs and has a fiancé. She’s eventually going to move out and into her own.

Maybe retreating to your room is the best idea for now. Gray rock, exit, don’t engage.

Thank you for this.
I agree I do get obsessed by our fights, but after so many years of this, my strategy is to live alongside her, but stay out of her way. Even when we try to do something or spend time together, it doesn't usually end well.
I mean the night I described with the pot, I was happily minding my own business. I did nothing to her. She was the one who had attitude. I guess it just always shocks me how little love or respect she has for her own mother.
As for limit setting, I agree, but she refuses to live by any limits. I think I need her to move out. There is nothing we have tried that has made her obey or follow limits. And her attitude is - what can you do to me?
I will definitely look up the books and articles you have provided but I will say I will spend not too much time on it because I am at the point where I have already spent significant time on trying to find a path that works and have not found it yet. I have tried. It's utterly soul destroying. Bottom line I dont think she has has little if any love for me.
I said this to another poster, but unless I had a supernanny type person in my ear teaching me how exactly to respond to her, I'm not sure what else will work. She's a master manipulator and I don't have back up in dealing with her.

Well, that's all debatable tbh. She's never managed a consistent job. As for the fiancee, he's a doormat she manipulates and walks all over. That's up to him though. I DO agree she needs to move out. I also agree its best to go to my room, although when you think about it, its literally MY house and she's such a bully she has ME retreating? It all makes me very sad and it is NOT normal.

Since it’s gotten to this point and she’s now an adult, it’s too late for the parenting that would have normally happened starting a long time ago. Your husband wasn’t united with you and she became unmanageable. There must have been a lot of issues between your marriage that contributed to her lack of discipline. But what’s done is behind you, so don’t beat yourself up. At this point, you are having to get through a pandemic with an adult daughter in your house being a toxic drain on you.

After life gets back to normal, you can get her to move out, change the locks, and don’t let her back in. I’m sorry and know how heartbreaking this must be for you. Prayers for maybe she will grow up and become a much better person someday soon. 21 is still quite young.

Rebecca,

I like Tisha's advice throughout this thread.

My husband and I are still supporting both our son and daughter in their 20's because I did not follow the above advice during their teen years and early 20's but we are united now and they are much more respectful, helpful, etc.

Parenting is hard work. Maintaining a house requires significant financial resources. You deserve respect for what you are doing for her.

During my walk this morning, I was thinking about this thread. I agree with Divine that we have to be careful about diagnosing others. For example, in my case, I also had bad boundaries and was too enmeshed in their emotions. They basically could easily find blame with their parents rather than take responsibility. This was my fault because they are good kids with problems and weaknesses like all of us but I had put them on a unrealistic pedelstal which must have been quite confusing. There were times I rescued them from their own mistakes which I did out of emotional love for them. We want our children to be loved but in my case I have to be careful not to let high emotions cause me to make the situation worse. In these family drama's, many times, everyone made mistakes so it is important to eventually learn to forgive ourselves and each other and move on. She is only 21 so she has a lot to learn and IMO the best thing we can do in addition to having simple boundaries is just to let them go and advise them less. We have to remember, that they are adults and how sweet their life is is mostly up to them.

PS. Perhaps you will be able to eventually relate to the YouTube video on this thread: Twelve Precious Truths a Wayward Child Can Teach Us

Thank you!
Yes, it is heartbreaking as I have no relationship with her. I truly believe she doesn’t love me or her father. (I’m not saying that to sound pathetic. It’s a true belief). I agree with everything you have said and that is at this point I don’t see a way back unless she gets older and thinks god I only have one mom and dad and they did their best and comes back to us. But as it is it’s simply not manageable. Because I’m just writing posts, there’s a load more I haven’t even told you all. These include compulsive lying (and lying about something that is totally obvious she’s lying donut but she says it like it’s the absolute truth) and loads of other stuff that’s happened. If I had written it all down I’d have a book. But I do need her out which is likely not be until October/November. I’ll have to hang on and stay sane.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Thanks for this. Sadly, for me I don’t think we will ever be united as to how to deal with her so sadly that’s not going to happen in our case. For example, she leaves a mess everywhere. As we speak she has dishes left on my dining room table including a bowl with food still in it. I also just cleaned 2 trays that she had used. Yet she would argue to the moon and back that she does dishes including mine. Anyway, the point is I’m desperate to tell her to get the dining room table cleared except I have stopped making requests of her as it leads to a huge fight so I’ll ask my husband to ask her to do it, but if I don’t ask him he just walks past the dishes and it doesn’t bother him. Also, my opinion is to show a united front, he should have said to her that he heard she called me a cheating w—— and told her that level of disrespect will not be tolerated. I think because he didn’t address that with her she thinks he thinks it was acceptable. It’s a huge mess. I think I’ve reached the conclusion I just need her out because we barely speak. It’s horrible. And my heart hurts but I dint think it’s fixable. She’s had a normal life. She’s just always resented any kind of authority and refused to accept it. I remember saying to her but we are your parents. Other parents also tell their children to do their homework or to clean up etc. but she would lose her mind if asked to do those things. We went through 2 years of therapy once a week and that didn’t help either! I feel like I tried! Ugh. Sorry. I’ll stop typing now but thank you for replying to me.

Hello!
Thank you for this.
I want to just let you know that I do not advise her any more at all. After years of terrible fights with her etc my M.O. now is to co-exist in this house with her. I do not approach her to talk unless she comes to me first. As for diagnosing her that’s a hard one. For a long time when she was young I just thought ok her behavior is challenging and we need to work out how to do this to help her. As the years passed and it got worse and of course we want her to make good choices and be successful we sought out help. The first doctor ever to say anything said she had ODD and that’s why she hated being asked to do anything. Then later we dealt with her taking an OD and ending up being committed. I mean we are talking serious stuff. We thought therapy would help (not just her but also us as parents to know how to react to her and help rather than make it worse) but nothing she said helped. It doesn’t matter about a diagnosis but I’m on here because my 21 year old hates me and can turn very nasty and vicious. I’m asking if there’s anything I can do. I’m not asking anyone to diagnose her and nor am I trying to. I’m trying to describe her behavior. And it’s absolutely not normal. I’ve tried and tried and tried with her for years and years and now I’m just ground down with it.
I’m probably not explaining it too well but it’s hard because this is not a new thing or me interfering in her life now she’s an adult. I’ve been struggling with this since she was very young and I guess I feel bad because after everything we tried none of it helped.
And it may be wrong of me but I would never in a million years have said the things she says to me to my mum no matter how mad I was. She can be cruel imo bottom line I need her to move out and maybe in a few years she will mellow.
I will watch that video thanks for lining it!

No need to say sorry because no one has to read. BTW--I have a habit of saying sorry way too much.

I do not have a perfect family (perhaps that is a myth?) but I truly believe that things are only improving for our children because my relationship with my husband which had got off track at some point in the marriage is so much better now. And your daughter might also need assistance from a psychiatrist or therapist but she can only be forced if she is a danger or left to deal with it on her own when she doesn't listen. IMO, it is important to not put our children before our spouses. I also have had to learn to not worry about upsetting other people. I had to learn to stand up for myself when my husband got upset at me--only then did I become strong enough for us to work many things out. I also had to learn to appreciate all his sacrifices for us more! It is not hopeless! Hang in there!

It does sound awful but you should not have to coexist because it is your house and your husband should be backing you up when she turns nasty and vicious. Is it vicious enough to call the police? You might both have to formally warn her in writing that she will be thrown out on a certain date if she has over the top behaviors that don't change. I thought my situation was hopeless, but it is getting better because my H and I are more united. There are also mental health issues in the mix but that too can be improved with the right help. My recommendation is to talk to him openly about everything. Try not to go over past mistakes, focus on the now. If you are not in agreement then, sadly, things probably won't work out as well.

And I assume our situations aren't exactly alike but I also had to get help for my anxiety, depression and perhaps bipolar 2--I do find that I am a lot more level headed on the medications I am now taking. Don't want to diagnose anyone in your family because I feel like MI diagnosis are tricky because you have to figure out how much is behavior verses personality verses chemical ups and downs that meds can help with. If you are not getting cooperation, all you can do is focus on you and maintain strong boundaries.

Honestly even the best parent/child relationships go downhill when everyone lives together. I get along with my daughter only because we don’t live together and never never did since she became an adult. If we lived together we’d have bunch of issues because we are both a pain in a neck. Lol We visit each other on each other’s locations and the most we stay is 2 weeks. No desire to live together

I never lived with my parents after age 19. I understand not making enough but that’s what roommates are for.

She needs to leave. Go live with a boyfriend or roommates.

There’s definitely something going on with her behavior and authority defiance which has been on-going and chronic. How did she do in school? Is she in college?

There’s also something going on between you and your husband in that he didn’t pipe up when she called you vile names bringing up a very personal marital issue. I presume you worked that issue out with him and he’s moved on from it. His silence here is strange. Do you have conversations with him about that? Where is the disconnect where you two are not united as parents of her? This is an important discussion between you and him.

I also worry in these situations how violent it could get. It’s better to be safe and wait out getting her out and somewhere else when the time comes.

If you don’t feel any love from her, I believe you that there isn’t any love from her. I hope she does grow up and realize her parents have value and shows love. It can happen. It can also go the other way and she could become a really bad person committing crimes. It’s really scary and that’s not your fault as parents. No one is perfect and you are very good parents, even if for just the fact you are keeping her fed and sheltered right now proves it. She may have a diagnosable issue, she may be able to get help but she has to want it, she may just mature on her own in time.

Hi Rebecca, I've tried to read through your thread since I'm dealing with many similar issues with my son who will be 20 soon. He is aggressive, wont help contribute when he has money, leaves all the cleaning and management of his life to me. I'm almost homeless. I'm on disability. I did kick him out a while ago, no charges laid but upon him returning his is still refusing to accept being responsible and respectful. I'm fed up. But during covid help is limited, shelters have waiting lists etc. I went so far in my life attending school meetings, getting counselors and support workers to no avail. My heart aches but there is only so much I can do. I cant demand respect from a son who has utterly no.value in his eyes of me. I too, retreat to my room, have to protect myself etc... the mental health system failed him. I am exhausting all resources to get him his own roof. I'm glad you.are free of her even though as mothers it is so difficult to do. I praise you for everything you did to help her. Best wishes to you and your family!

Hi there,
I'd like to answer some of these questions. She did not do well in school. Despite being very bright, she was never interested and did not complete assignments. At one point in Middle School, she did not bother to complete a 'portfolio' and just failed it. This continued right up to Grade 11 where again she just did not complete work. She got so behind that the assistant head of the school spoke to her and told her to just get what she could done, but she just gave up. She then announced that she was not going to finish HS, so she did nor attend Grade 12, and got her GED instead. She told us it would be great as she would get ahead of the curve and be working on her AA ahead of her friends, but that never happened. She just turned 21 and still no AA. (Bit of background here. We are from Scotland and I got my degree for free as tuition is free there. So we hear from her all the time that she refuses to go into debt to get a degree and that's the reason she is doing it so slowly. What she would not mention to anyone is that after school she did enroll in community college but was involved with a boy at the time, so we paid upfront for the whole year and she flunked out. After that we said you pay it and we will refund you if you pass. But she constantly makes remarks about how her friends get this, that and the other and she doesn't.)

Now, as for my husband, he wants a quiet life. He never did want to participate in the discipline part of parenting. I remember once, years ago, her behavior was not great and we were in the car and I said to him - we need to start doing a sticker chart or something, and he was like nah. He wants like the path of least resistance, so he prefers to just lie low and let her get on with it. Whereas I have a different temprament. I can't just ignore bad behavior, so I'll confront it and deal with it. I hope that explains somewhat why he is reluctant to say anything. (and why it became me versus her)

Thank you for the words of encouragament. Although we were obviously not prefect parents, I am a teacher and I worked with kids whose parents were awful for whatever reason. I saw kids for whom school was a respite as they had no idea whether they were going home to. They didn't know if they were going to eat/get beat up/find parents who had overdosed etc. So, I guess I just feel really upset at the fact that her childhood was 'normal' and actually quite good. She was looked after and loved and fed and taken on travels and had paid for hobbies. You know, within the realms of what would be considered 'normal', yet she was unhappier/worse behaved than those kids who had abusive homes. That was hard for me to understand.

I think from my own personal perspective too, my personality is so different to hers, so that is hard too. For example, I was subservient towards my mom in particular. I wanted to please her and I was very sad if she was mad at me, so my daughter treats me with a contempt and lack of love and I can't imgaine how she can be like that at all, so it's very hard to understand why she is like that!

Thanks for replying!

Hello there,
I am very sad to read this. You deserve better. I feel like no matter how hard life is, if your kids love you, it makes life so much better, so if you are already struggling and your son isn't appreciating you, that's very hard to take.
I feel the same about being let down by mental health help. I think it is VERY hard to find resources to help. You would think that we did nothing to help our daughter, but we did a LOT. She saw psychs, she saw therpaists, she was an inpatient for a few days. DCF (dept of children and families) came to the home to speak to her. (The DCF guy came and told her how lucky she was to live in our home and how he routinely went to the bad part of town where the poor kids had no chance as everything was stacked against them) but she took all the help and advice and just threw it away. If I had written down all of the things that had happened with her I'd have a book people would read and say 'that cannot be true.' I look back and wonder how my husband and I are still alive and sane to be honest. I mean I'm only relaying like 1/10th here of what she is like.
Anyway, I don't mean to turn this back to me. I am sorry you are going through this. I wish I could make it better for you. I will be thinking about you and hoping that your situation improves, and that your son one day realizes how amazing you are and gives you the respect you deserve. Just know you are not alone. You did your best.
All of the love to you.

Thank you so much @rebecca1938
It means a lot to me to have someone understand. Just right now he's banging around here, stomping, opening my door taking a fit because he can't find a lighter. I honestly hope I don't get any housing, we will both be homeless but I'd rather do that then put up with the disrespect. Whatever is wrong with him, I'm still trying to get the doc who is away to follow up with getting him a psychiatrist. I wish you all the best through this tough life!!

I wonder if she could have ADHD. Forgive me if you mentioned it earlier in the thread and I’ve forgotten.

ADHD and ADD are thrown around and diagnosed without really knowing. My son was only about 6 years old and after a literal 10 minute appointment she said let's get him on adhd meds. We went on and off with meds for our son. The schools only comment "well he isnt a bother to any other kids when he's medicated" , meanwhile he is the one getting pushed and bullied. He didn't eat hardly anything and got irritable at night couldn't sleep. In my opinion and it's only my opinion, adhd is a garbage can diagnose to make a child "behave and be quiet". These are strong meds. Been on them myself and it's like you are zoned in but feel horrible and anxious at the same time. It might work for some parents, I'm not saying they are wrong to choose to medicate this way but I know my experience with so called "help" for my own son.

Well it’s funny you say that because she has been diagnosed with ADHD. I’ll say a couple of things regarding that though. First of all she was put on meds for it and they did not help her. I thought ADHD was one condition that can really be improved with meds. Second of all she definitely might have ADHD but in my opinion it’s not her only condition. I didn’t think ADHD made you unloving, oppositional, rude and nasty. Does it and I’m wrong?

I’m so sorry. I wish I could help. I can only say that I’m lucky only in that my daughter isn’t violent and she isn’t typically verbally abusive. She is only nasty/vindictive/vile when we have an argument. But I will say that my strategy is to avoid all and any conversation with her. Avoidance is what I do as the more I interact with her, the likelier it will be that it will descend into a horrible fight.
To be honest though I do have to bite my tongue because I just think her behavior is crap. It’s 1pm here right now and she’s still in her bed. She doesn’t eat properly. She doesn’t walk her dog. She makes a mess in my house and her crap is all over my dining room table. Her room is indescribable. It looks like crack den. There’s stuff everywhere including spilled stuff, stains in the carpet and wall and her toilet/shower/bathroom is disgusting. When she does move out I’m going to need it professionally cleaned and painted.

When you said she doesn’t finish things, it made me think ADHD. I can relate, as I think I have it but was not diagnosed. I think several members of my family do, too, also not diagnosed. My youngest son was diagnosed in second grade, but is very mild and he tried the meds briefly in fourth grade, said he didn’t feel like himself, so I took him off them. He’s done pretty well in school and is outstanding in music and holds leadership role in school now. My oldest son thought he had it, but he always performed just fine in school, so I never pursued it. He has now gotten himself tested and I think he is taking meds, although I am quite against that, but he’s an adult now so I have no influence anymore.

This is a good article about how is can be very different in many and coexist with other issues.
Adult attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) - Symptoms and causes - Mayo Clinic

That my be your experience and I want to validate that. I also want to share that it isnt always or usually the norm. If a doctor spends 10 minutes with you or your child or anyone and diagnoses them after those 10 minutes its time to find another doctor for a second opinion. I have BPII and ADHD and have been on adderall for 14 years. My son is 24 now and was diagnosed with adhd at 3.5 and began meds when he was 4. They literally saved him. His evals showed is IQ was off the chart but the adhd was preventing him from using that. He took meds until age 16 and made the decision to stop meds. He just graduated with a double major in Political science and journalism with a minor in international studies. He already passed his Pre-LSAT and is pre-law. He just got a job with an international company starting at 50k which for a fresh graduate is unheard of. I am not bragging just sharing that meds are not always the demons that they are believed to be but I am in agreement that they are not always for everyone. Both my girls are ADHD and cant tolerate the side effects of stimulants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2daffodils ADHD and ADD are thrown around and diagnosed without really knowing. My son was only about 6 years old and after a literal 10 minute appointment she said let's get him on adhd meds. We went on and off with meds for our son. The schools only comment "well he isnt a bother to any other kids when he's medicated" , meanwhile he is the one getting pushed and bullied. He didn't eat hardly anything and got irritable at night couldn't sleep. In my opinion and it's only my opinion, adhd is a garbage can diagnose to make a child "behave and be quiet". These are strong meds. Been on them myself and it's like you are zoned in but feel horrible and anxious at the same time. It might work for some parents, I'm not saying they are wrong to choose to medicate this way but I know my experience with so called "help" for my own son.