Lack of resources and stupid therapists.

HAHAHAHAHA.

Why the helpless feeling?

LOL. I had to edit my last post.. the addition of the word "little" was a mistake.

I still have this odd feeling of wanting to be understood and accepted..

forums devoted to personality types have probably saved my life..

INTJ's are well known for their coldness and lack of empathy... it would be weird to them if I did show empathy... lol.

It sounds like you didn't get much understanding or acceptance early on in life and now you're looking for it in your adult life. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I haven't visited forums devoted to personality types, that intrigues me. I'm an ENTP... Another type that's not known for being all warm and fuzzy(ie, empathetic), lol.

My parents are weird (like I'm not, lol), irrational, unintelligent people.

I've always liked objectivity, knowledge and truth..

The whole fundamentalist YEC belief system just doesn't fit me... they can't even imagine the world being any other way than the way their church leaders tell them it is.

I have no tolerance for that kind of thing, either. If it makes someone else happy to believe in stuff like that then go for it, but if someone tries to shove it down my throat they can expect quite the argument with me... and they will lose. Heh.

My NPD father was raised in a fundamentalist southern Baptist home that was highly abusive. It's no wonder he has NPD, his childhood was beyond "bad".

no, I didn't. my earliest memories are of the cruelty and neglect my mother showed me.

try it out sometime... you're bound to find one devoted to the ENTP personality type.

Has he ever expressed any regrets?

I suppose I'm lucky in that my dad has, at times.

My dad grew up in a very worldly home. I'm not sure why he thought he needed to be "saved". Maybe it was to get away from the alcohol (his parents owned a bar). It was always an issue with him.

Once, in a weird way. It wasn't about his childhood though, it was about what he did to me. He was driving me home from school or something one day when I was a teenager... and he just randomly broke down sobbing saying how much of a **** up he was and how he ruined my life, etc. It was... really strange... But just as quickly as it began, it stopped and then he acted like it never happened. It was so weird, lol. That's the only time I've ever seen him cry.

Maybe he really meant it.... the man who sexually abused me cried the next morning, too.

Damn it's weird to think about that...

"I wish I could find someone who helps learn how to not care about so many things that I let hold me back" quote Underground

"For me I let my mind play over and over to have a picture on what I see on how something that already past should of been. This is obviously something I cannot change but yet I let my mind stir which in turn causes me more problems because I feel like I wasn't right in dealing with. How do I say well thats done on move ahead?" quote Underground

This is a lot like what happens with PTSD too. I have not seen any of your history Underground, but it sounds like you had "trauma" take place. No, you can't go back and change anything including how you reacted, that's true. However, the reason you struggle with these incidents and playing them over in your mind like you are, is it's because they remain "unresolved" and included in that as well are "unresolved emotions".

You have said that you feel other people are phoney too. Well, in a way, you are actually "right" but it's not in the way you think. People have "trepedations" all the time Underground, and often they can respond to others or certain situations poorly because whatever took place hit a part of that person in the "I don't know" range. And therapists are no exception in this because they are only human too, and they can read all about psychology, but still not be able to utilize the information in a way where they can help others with a resolve.

In what I have seen of you, you have expressed "emotions", even a "negative" comment/reaction is expressing an emotion, but it's also expressing an "unmet" need too. That bold print that you wrote, you know which one, that was about "you", not the other individual. While you can present me with a comeback, it's not going to be the "real" reason, because that is actually an "unknown" to you. However, I will tell you a secret, "I have done that too", and I have a lot of empathy, too much to be honest, yet there are "unknowns" in me too.

The biggest problem with "unknowns" is that no matter how much one doesn't want to "care", it doesn't fix whatever is "unknown". But that is not a personal attack on you in anyway, unless you don't want to be "human". The reason your wife says you are either yes or no and no inbetween is that is an "unknown" to you, so it's a lot simpler to do it your way, but it "limits" and that is what naggs you and holds you back. Now, just because I have taken some time to "call you out" some, it doesn't mean I want a duel with you or that I am a know it all in some way either or that I "think" I know you. I don't know you, but, I can see that you were expressing some honesties about yourself here, and I think you "do" want to know and I think you deserve to know too. I also have no problem believing you when you took time out to see a therapist and that therapist took you in circles either, been there myself in a big way so I hear you there.

One can read a book about NPD or look it up on line, and see the symptoms/traits etc., but that doesn't help the person with their own personal "whys". That is the same thing for me when I looked up PTSD, yes, I definitely had the symptoms, but there was no real answer as to "why" in me. And that, my friend is "all about me and my own "unresolve" that plays back in my mind too and "holds me back". There is not a whole lot of difference, just two different "labels" affixed to us, but interestingly enough, we are not all that much unlike each other. I have to put on a mask too, I don't just go out and say, "hi, I am OE and I suffer from PTSD" any more than you would say, "Hi, I am Underground and I have NPD".

I know I am a bit late seeing this, but I just wanted to explain to you what this meant more.

This was a big moment for this man, and you too. A victim rarely gets this attempt to admit fault and remorse from an abuser.

At that moment in time your father looked at you realizing what he did to you and how wrong it was. It was brave of him to say something, and especially to emotionally express remorse in front of you and admit he was a ****up.
The reason he stopped and then stopped talking was that he did not know "how" to do anything more and he just "shut down" and disassociated.

What he also was expressing to you is that he has no "knowledge" at all about how to nurture in any way. It's not the "nature" of a man really, its more in the nature of a female by our design. It is not unusual for a man to only express what he "thinks" is love through sexual acts, and not understand other aspects of expressing love. Men express affection by teasing, joking, wrestling other males and competing philosophy and problem solving, "unless" they are taught differently how to walk the line of "nurturing/comforting/caring in more tender ways.

My father was a narcissist as well and when he cried one time in front of me (only time i've seen it) it was because he had realized he wasn't the great person he thought he was. It really still had nothing to do with me, even though I was involved. It was all his internal identity battle.

I think men are more prone to this because of the expectations they get fed all the time that they don't quite know "how" to achieve what is being demanded of them and get very self absorbed with it.

He was just a narcissist father. I don't hate him i'm not mad at him. It's just who he was, he couldn't accept that he wasn't a good father.

Well, in "his" mind he was. He played a role that in his mind was what his idea of the husband, father, king of his castle was supposed to be.

I had an experience with my father and I can't quite remember how old I was, but I was an adult, I think it was when he realized the mistakes he made, especially with my older brother. He did weep, but he told me that he did not know "how" to be a father and that his idea was his children needed to have manners, get educated and speak good english. I knew his father "while an extremely intelligent/gifted man" was also an alcoholic, and all I know is when he drank he got mean, and my father's mother ran away, so I am sure bad things happened.

My father had Narcissistic Traits, but was not NPD. It became clear to me that it boiled down to "I did not know".

Perhaps he was? It's really not as uncommon as people think. A lot of times it's very hard to look at a loved one objectionally. What narcissistic traits did he have? Did he fit many of the symptoms in the most current DSM V? Here's a link if you're curious about it at all:

http://www.psi.uba.ar/academica/carr...terial/dsm.pdf

The right hand side is the current edition the left hand side is the old edition, just so you don't get confused. NPD is on page 9

Mattmx,

Yes, it definitely IS hard to look at a loved one objectively. For myself with the pstd, for a while I was incapable of it tbh. It was very much "avoiding" them as if I had a horrible wound they could jab leaving me wrealing in pain and incapacitated. I attempted to interact in this forum and ended up doing what I call "criss crossing", do you think others really understood that? The positive, though hard for me to explain was being able to see it in writing, have a chance to think about it and acknowledging it and recognize the trauma in it that came out in my mind. It's a lot like experiencing a flashback where a person relives something as it is happening "right now" , it is hard to explain to others, except those who have experienced it themselves.

What I have noticed is "how" trauma can affect someone in ways they are not consciously aware of, also, that no matter how much literal knowledge someone may gain, the person can still have deep set trauma's that hold them back. With myself it is "extreme" and has been incredibly crippling. Yet, I have worked through a lot of things in it to where I have learned a great deal too.

I can read that criteria and definitely see things listed that I can apply to others in my life. However, instead of doing what so many do and just slapping these labels, I am more interested in the "whys", but in a very different way then just reading the information itself.

There is a group of individuals in the forum that want others who can relate. It is not that different from the forum I spend a lot of time in, the ptsd forum. And many here have discussed their histories of "trauma and dysfunction". Well, the people that I am trying to understand IRL around me "all" experienced their "own" trauma's and dysfunction too.

While these different individuals struggle here, yes, I can see the lack of resources and truely qualified therapists that are willing to take on the task to help the individual understand themselves better and learn how to finally "overcome" their history of "trauma and dysfunction" to where they developed these "traits" of trying to thrive anyway. Yes, there is a lot of negative stigma with these challenges, I think that what draws me is and always has, was witnessing what happened to my older brother where everyone judged him badly. While I did not know what made him challenging, I always knew it was not "his fault" and I took the time to get to know him rather then just run from him and deem him "bad". In a way I nurtured him unknowingly and it helped him develop some empathy, and yet, he has some Narcissistic Traits. I also know that as a human being, he has some very deep disturbance in him from the "dysfunctional" way he had been treated that was "traumatic" to him.

I also feel that "cultural order" can be unhealthy too. So if someone isn't following along within a cultural guideline, does that make that person "bad"?

The thing that draws the line and makes it more than just traits is when it becomes the persons only personality

Thanks, that is something I am looking at closer now. Yet, it is a coping method just the same and many do not "know" they have the disorder either. That being said, some of them still suffer internally "alone". It depends on how it developed though too.

Yeah that's definitely true, but what needs to be realized about PD's is that the coping method has become their personality. It's no longer a coping method, and that insecurity and lack of self image and esteem is buried in the unconscious feeding their new personality

Yes, I see that, however all people develop coping methods that they "learn" and navigate with that become a part of their personality. And everyone has "some" disorder within their personality, it's just a part of the human experience.

If a child grows up in a dysfunctional environment, they "will" imprint negative traits unknowingly. Children act out these challenges in play and depending on what the child is seeing in behavior patterns they will practice them unknowingly to learn and develop as they do so. This will continue into adulthood where even as adults these individuals will continue practicing and developing around these "imprinted" messages.

However, that doesn't mean an individual can't modify that and learn to develop "new" skills to where a personality can "evolve" into something better. That being said, the only way that can happen is to first, identify what it goes back to, have a person identify it and understand what trait or coping method they unknowingly developed and then that person has to be shown a new way to cope, but also has to practice it over and over until he/she understands how to do it and experience the better affects it has verses the habits that person developed.

Is it "work" yes, but human beings are by design capable of adapting.

You have my sympathies. It's got to be hard on a level I don't understand, no longer being able to relate to others very well.

In dealing with a disorder that has no well established treatment like NPD, I think the best therapists are those of the humanistic school of thought. They are the most hopeful and attempt to be understanding and give unconditional positive regard even when most people would use harsh judgment. While some view their hands off approach as tedious, I see it as a way for one to experience realizations of their own.

For the personality disorders, this recognition of the individuals humanity can be a welcome relief compared to other therapeutic approaches. A therapist with an open mind is the best in my opinion for dealing with a problem with out an established effective approach.

Yes, that is true but in my case there is no environmental damage. I was born the way I am, I was the one that would cause damage around me as a child. Sure there were problems in my childhood, but they did not effect me and I can talk about them in detail with no emotions whatsoever. That is what I believe atypical is referring to. A type of condition from birth. But yes, everyone with emotions and empathy, whether they are raised in the ideal household or a poor environment develop negative and positive traits. There will always be negative experiences that the brain associates to when situations occur that are similar, causing an emotional response. That is what the root of emotion is, previous experiences put into the subconscious that manifest as what we call emotion.

So you are saying you have "no" emotions Mattmx?

Yes, I agree. My therapist (who is very knowedgeable) takes the humanistic approach, that has worked well with me (I have ptsd) because that is always how I have been myself with others. I think it is important to know if some kind of learning disability is present like dyslexia/adhd/autism spectrum etc. That way a discussion can take place where the individual learns about how that affects them and how to work with/around it.

What I "don't" like about this diagnosis is the incredibly negative stigma it has. If there is a deep challenge with "self esteem" that is taking place, I would not want to "threaten" that by diagnosing someone where they are reading about how "bad" they are. It could result in that individual only embracing the very charectoristic/coping methods they should be learning how to slowly change instead.