[jdw275]

Hi I've been having really bad thoughts about all sorts of personal fears, stuff that is so irrational and bizarre that I can't even go into what these thoughts are about. They're about a variety of different things and tend not to be the more usual type of thoughts anyway, I guess the content of the thoughts doesn't matter in the end, treatment works for all pure O thoughts, I don't want to complicate things, I would rather just group it into one target Pure O.

Anyway, I've had them real bad for over 2 years now and it gets to stages now when even though I know something isn't real or a thought comes up and it's telling me something negative in whatever story it creates and I start react badly to it and then after a time of the same story being repeated perhaps over a week or 2 or even months or just in a day. Those thoughts that I think to counteract against the initial spikes to fight their lies back are no longer working effectively and sometimes not at all. Then those negative thoughts become sort of the standards in my mind, they become unspoken about truths even though they're so irrational and even though 9 times out of 10 the type of "truths" that I can no longer resist and fight away are stuff that is totally impossible in a phsyical sense though I guess what is possible and impossible if we're talking about the psyche? It sort of leaves me feeling totally defenceless when even I can't beat these thoughts because they're not just thoughts they twist your own reality and like I say they can make things that aren't real and are false into real and true. Even though on a logical level they can and never will be, my emotions react to them like they are because I've sort of lost a battle with any number of particular nature of stories. This makes me very unhappy not just for the short term but long term I've no way of enjoying particular things based on whatever these pure o thoughts are about and other things like that.

I've looked around online and I've only found about 3 articles on the subject of actually what to do. I've got about 5 books on OCD as well and I'm still looking for more resources or the one that really helps me. I want to understand what methods or whatever it is they're called, actions I need to take to stop my mind fearing all my thoughts every day, 24/7 a day. I'm always on the alert on thoughts and I have/had hundreds/thousands of different thoughts and mental actions and sometimes phsyical actions that I guess are called safety behaviours in psychology to counteract these instrusive thoughts.

One book I've read brainlock I've saw some criticism on it and I totally agree that some people find that those steps that the author suggests is all you need can become objects of pure O itself. They can become part of the problem, thinking about those steps and always reverting back to them also always brings your mind back to the problem and brings them back into focus which is surely not good for the longterm.

I just want to know how are you meant to overcome pure o/ocd? What is the healthy and standard method/advice that psychologists go by?

[Skeezyks]

Hello jdw275: I'm sorry I cannot answer your questions. But I saw that you had yet to receive a reply to your post. So I thought I would at least leave a reply letting you know I had read it. Are you familiar with California therapist Kati Morton? She's on YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, & other sites. She uploads videos onto her YouTube channel several times per week. She also answers questions from viewers. I've watched quite a few of her videos & have always found them to be insightful. If you're not familiar with Kati, I would check out her YouTube channel. I'm sure you'll find at least a few videos on the subject of OCD in particular. My best wishes to you...

[Miswimmy1]

The most common method of treatment for OCD of all types is ERP (exposure response prevention) therapy. It is a subtype of cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). The point of therapy is to identify the triggering thoughts and problematic thought patterns and subsequently, the behaviors that follow wether they be repetitive thoughts or actions or whatnot. ERP is basically gradually exposing oneself to the discomfort of the triggering thoughts or fears without doing anything to combat it (keeping oneself from performing 'necessary' rituals, neutralizing thoughts, etc.) I know that it sounds terrifying but with ERP, you have to feel worse in order to get better. It gets easier over time and you start really small and then gradually work yourself up to exposing yourself to triggers that cause more significant amounts of anxiety. The goal is that with repeated exposure, the fear lessens as your body realizes that nothing bad is going to happen.

From personal experience, this type of therapy is extremely difficult to do without a therapist or a CBT specialist. Not because it's a complicated method but because it is hard to hold yourself accountable and actually follow through with the program. There are many books that will guide you through ERP. But when you are facing such extreme anxiety, it is really hard not to give into those feelings.

Best of luck to you!

[jdw275]

Hi Skeezyks, thank you for the recommendation and I've just subscribed to her and look forward to looking through some of her videos.

Hi Miswimmy I've know the basis of your message and it was that which I wanted to expand on. To just clarify, the idea would be to purposefully put myself into situations where thoughts are triggered and then not react to them using any of the safety behaviours/reassurance tactics I use against the negative thoughts. I've tried this and although I must be using failing at some point and using a safety behaviour because otherwise I wouldn't still be getting them. I find it difficult to know if or when I'm using a safety behaviour, even the act of saying you're not afraid and then facing the thoughts could even turn into a safety behaviour itself, couldn't it?

Also to confirm the idea isn't to accept thoughts to such an extent that you're saying their right (even when most of them aren't) and accepting that you are what you fear most that in the long term they won't bother you anymore? That would be just as unbenefical as resisting them wouldn't it? The answer is between resisting and accepting and that is having a netural response to the thoughts and just observing them, right?

Thank you both for replies

[Miswimmy1]

I'm a little bit confused as to what your question is.

Have you heard of 'neutralizing'? It is a term that refers to really any sort of behavior or thought that one uses to reduce their anxiety. For a long time, I thought that my OCD was purely mental. I would think "bad" thoughts and that was what triggered me. But I didn't *do* anything about after I had the thoughts. It wasn't until I was in residential treatment that I first heard of neutralizing. It turned out that what I took for progress was actually making my situation worse.

For example: I knew someone that worried obsessively about killing her sister by driving off the road when she was in the car. While she knew that was an irrational fear, because the chances of driving off a flat road were very slim and of course she loved her sister very much, she would go over and over the awful scenario in her head. Without really realizing it, she was having a conversation with herself in which she would justify her worries - it's raining and the roads are slick, it's New Years Eve and there are more drunk drivers on the road than normal, etc. The justification of her fear as a rational fear, given the circumstance, gave her the reassurance she needed to go out and do her errands or whatnot. That is an example of neutralizing. You might be able to go about your day without becoming completely hung up with your anxiety because you shrug off that one thought by somehow justifying the thought in that one particular instance.

There is a fine line between combating the thoughts and getting caught in the web of OCD thoughts. Neutralizing is basically avoiding, although it doesn't feel like it, because you are essentially dismissing the fear as rational, as opposed to facing exactly how irrational the fear was to begin with.

Another thing that you might be doing (and is something that I was quite guilty of) is recognizing the fear and then simply saying, "that will never happen'. The goal isn't to verbalize how irrational the fear is. You already know that, deep down inside, that the thoughts don't make any logical sense. For me, I obsessed about germs. I would keep thinking over and over 'it might be dirty', 'what if it's dirty', 'what if i am dirty now', etc. Instead of saying to myself that of course I'm not dirty and that clean surface hasn't contaminated me, the goal would be to say, 'Ok. I am dirty. So what?' And then sit with that feeling.

One more thing- A technique that is often suggested is distraction. When you feel anxious, distract yourself. This works in the short term and definitely has it's place in one's toolbox but it is not a long-term solution for OCD and will not, on it's own, by any means cure OCD. Distraction is also in essence, avoiding the direct confrontation of one's fears.

Does this help at all?

[jdw275]

Originally Posted by Miswimmy1

I'm a little bit confused as to what your question is.

Have you heard of 'neutralizing'? It is a term that refers to really any sort of behavior or thought that one uses to reduce their anxiety. For a long time, I thought that my OCD was purely mental. I would think "bad" thoughts and that was what triggered me. But I didn't *do* anything about after I had the thoughts. It wasn't until I was in residential treatment that I first heard of neutralizing. It turned out that what I took for progress was actually making my situation worse.

For example: I knew someone that worried obsessively about killing her sister by driving off the road when she was in the car. While she knew that was an irrational fear, because the chances of driving off a flat road were very slim and of course she loved her sister very much, she would go over and over the awful scenario in her head. Without really realizing it, she was having a conversation with herself in which she would justify her worries - it's raining and the roads are slick, it's New Years Eve and there are more drunk drivers on the road than normal, etc. The justification of her fear as a rational fear, given the circumstance, gave her the reassurance she needed to go out and do her errands or whatnot. That is an example of neutralizing. You might be able to go about your day without becoming completely hung up with your anxiety because you shrug off that one thought by somehow justifying the thought in that one particular instance.

There is a fine line between combating the thoughts and getting caught in the web of OCD thoughts. Neutralizing is basically avoiding, although it doesn't feel like it, because you are essentially dismissing the fear as rational, as opposed to facing exactly how irrational the fear was to begin with.

Another thing that you might be doing (and is something that I was quite guilty of) is recognizing the fear and then simply saying, "that will never happen'. The goal isn't to verbalize how irrational the fear is. You already know that, deep down inside, that the thoughts don't make any logical sense. For me, I obsessed about germs. I would keep thinking over and over 'it might be dirty', 'what if it's dirty', 'what if i am dirty now', etc. Instead of saying to myself that of course I'm not dirty and that clean surface hasn't contaminated me, the goal would be to say, 'Ok. I am dirty. So what?' And then sit with that feeling.

One more thing- A technique that is often suggested is distraction. When you feel anxious, distract yourself. This works in the short term and definitely has it's place in one's toolbox but it is not a long-term solution for OCD and will not, on it's own, by any means cure OCD. Distraction is also in essence, avoiding the direct confrontation of one's fears.

Does this help at all?

It's a lot of helpful info, thanks.

This isn't describing my own negative/obsessive thoughts but using the following as an example, let's say someones worried about being a rapist. In this example the person hasn't raped anyone but has delved so far into doubt that they can no longer on an emotional level tell the difference between what is truth and reality and what isn't. Even though logically they know they haven't nor are they a rapist. So when you mention the attitude of "so what?" like the example you gave, does this mean in this example the person would have to feel okay about the possibilty that the thoughts are true and he/she is a rapist?

[Miswimmy1]

That's a difficult question because in that particular instance, considering that the thoughts are true is not going to be beneficial because sitting with the idea of being a rapist is going to be emotionally harmful in itself. I haven't met anyone with that particular issue but my guess would be that with the help of a therapist, you would learn how to challenge those sort of thoughts, which are known as cognitive distortions. Thought challenging isn't simply saying 'I'm not a rapist' and it's not simply saying 'I am a rapist, so what?'. It entails asking yourself questions whose answers can help sort of bring you back to reality. Things such as, 'Was I ever situated in a place where I could have raped someone? No.' or maybe the answer was yes. 'If I had any urges, did I follow through? no'. Hopefully the answer is no. 'Have I ever harmed anyone in the past?' Hopefully the answer is no. 'Have I ever wanted to harm anyone before?' In asking these types of questions, you can sort of prove to yourself that it is all the OCD talking and these thoughts are not actually accurate reflections of your intentions or desires. I'm just guessing here because I really think that this is a special case that would need to be worked on in a specific way.

[jdw275]

Originally Posted by Miswimmy1

That's a difficult question because in that particular instance, considering that the thoughts are true is not going to be beneficial because sitting with the idea of being a rapist is going to be emotionally harmful in itself. I haven't met anyone with that particular issue but my guess would be that with the help of a therapist, you would learn how to challenge those sort of thoughts, which are known as cognitive distortions. Thought challenging isn't simply saying 'I'm not a rapist' and it's not simply saying 'I am a rapist, so what?'. It entails asking yourself questions whose answers can help sort of bring you back to reality. Things such as, 'Was I ever situated in a place where I could have raped someone? No.' or maybe the answer was yes. 'If I had any urges, did I follow through? no'. Hopefully the answer is no. 'Have I ever harmed anyone in the past?' Hopefully the answer is no. 'Have I ever wanted to harm anyone before?' I'm just guessing here because I really think that this is a special case that would need to be worked on in a specific way.

Thanks for the reply.

This isn't my case at all, I just wanted to use an example as I don't want to talk about my issues too much. I have no fears of thoughts about being a rapist, just to clarify.

I brought up rape or I could have brought up murder or anything like that, mine aren't anything morally abhorrent in the public's view or tradionalist view. But as with all mental health issues, they're personal to the person so to me the particular fears which seem to fuel my pure O seem abhorrent to me and would impact me emotionally to say "so what if this happens or if I'm this or if this means this" etc. I've tried doing that and I feel just awful and my anxiety goes up and not only that but then the pure o thoughts are reinforced by me agreeing with them and saying they're right when they're not.

So I guess the answer would still remain the same then? if it's going to effect your personal emotional compass and person then it's not benefical to say "so what if the thoughts are true. i don't mind/care" I think that would be because you would be fueling your mind with what you mentioned cognitive issues with your thought processes, correct? I'm going to look up cognitive distortion and see if I can find anything I'm able to relate to and see if it's more to do with that but I would have thought ocd is a cognitive distortion anyhow.

Sorry for all these questions but I have one more, when I've seen on these sections in forums I will sometimes see a few HOCD threads. Would the "so what" type of thought questioning and acceptance have a different more benefical impact than say a morally wrong one such as murder? Then again I guess homosexuality could be morally wrong in certain religions.

LAST question. I thought - thought challenging was a safety behaviour/symptom of OCD/Pure O? I mean, I know theres healthy and unhealthy thought challenging but I always challenge my thoughts in a sane way but it never helps it only makes the thoughts worst and I feel even more threatened when they come up. Or did you imply that was for cognitive distortions only and not OCD/Pure O? I get that the thought challenging is meant to bring you back to reality which is good but if you do it enough times it just becomes powerless, kind of like the rubber band method of getting rid of obbessive thoughts only makes it worst in the long run.

[Miswimmy1]

OCD thoughts are distorted thoughts related to anxiety but cognitive distortions apply more to how you perceive a situation due to biasing factors or thought patterns. I don't know if that makes sense.

It is really hard to know what techniques might help when the social, personal, and environmental factors can vary so much from person to person. I completely understand what you are saying and I respect your desire to keep your own obsessions private. I am just not sure how to answer your question. I guess the real question is whether whatever technique you choose to use causes more stress or not and in what regard. Would affirming the thought cause distress because it acknowledges something that is morally wrong and reflects badly on you? Or would affirming the thought cause you distress because it is going against what the OCD is telling you is true (and therefore you must be wrong)? Does it really matter in the end? Because even if your OCD is trying to tell you that you did something or thought something that is socially or morally wrong, the odds are that whatever it is doesn't apply to you anyways. So what do you have to lose by flipping the nagging voice in your head around and asking the OCD 'So what if I am ____?' I'm sorry if I'm not helping; it's hard in such general terms to answer your question.

It sounds like you have a complicated case. My best suggestion would be to find a therapist who can help you work through this stuff. He or she would not only be able to help you with exposure and thought challenging techniques but also be able to help you acquire other tools to use in instances such as when you try to challenge the thoughts and the anxiety only increases - stuff like deep breathing, mindfulness, muscle relaxation exercises, etc. In my experience, treating OCD requires action on all fronts. It usually isn't just self help, or therapy, or medication. It's a combination of a lot of different interventions all working at once.

Have you considered medication?

And also - I did not think that you were a rapist or were even implying such. I understood that you were just giving an example.

[jdw275]

Originally Posted by Miswimmy1

OCD thoughts are distorted thoughts related to anxiety but cognitive distortions apply more to how you perceive a situation due to biasing factors or thought patterns. I don't know if that makes sense.

It is really hard to know what techniques might help when the social, personal, and environmental factors can vary so much from person to person. I completely understand what you are saying and I respect your desire to keep your own obsessions private. I am just not sure how to answer your question. I guess the real question is whether whatever technique you choose to use causes more stress or not and in what regard. Would affirming the thought cause distress because it acknowledges something that is morally wrong and reflects badly on you? Or would affirming the thought cause you distress because it is going against what the OCD is telling you is true (and therefore you must be wrong)? Does it really matter in the end? Because even if your OCD is trying to tell you that you did something or thought something that is socially or morally wrong, the odds are that whatever it is doesn't apply to you anyways. So what do you have to lose by flipping the nagging voice in your head around and asking the OCD 'So what if I am ____?' I'm sorry if I'm not helping; it's hard in such general terms to answer your question.

It sounds like you have a complicated case. My best suggestion would be to find a therapist who can help you work through this stuff. He or she would not only be able to help you with exposure and thought challenging techniques but also be able to help you acquire other tools to use in instances such as when you try to challenge the thoughts and the anxiety only increases - stuff like deep breathing, mindfulness, muscle relaxation exercises, etc. In my experience, treating OCD requires action on all fronts. It usually isn't just self help, or therapy, or medication. It's a combination of a lot of different interventions all working at once.

Have you considered medication?

And also - I did not think that you were a rapist or were even implying such. I understood that you were just giving an example.

I've been on medication for a while now. I do see you're point with the acceptance thing, what's the worst that can happen if I were to accept any intrusive thoughts as being factual although I'm afraid of them getting worst by doing that. Another problem is it can really suck the passion or enjoyment I have with a hobby or something similar like that, perhaps a book or a character in a book, something that is tainted with intrusive thoughts can potentially knock any enjoyment I have with anything to the point where I can no longer bare to do whatever it is. It can and has I find permanently messed up how I view certain things now to a point where I find it difficult to connect to something like I would have prior to the intrusive thoughts coming, If I were to give up the fight and say okay I'm just going to consciously stop fighting them and instead just accept the possibility of their truth of what they're saying to me, accepting it as a truth which is what I fear thus giving me less anxiety and need to constantly keep an eye on thoughts and moniter them. I feel like I would be letting these thoughts take away the rest of what little I have left to which I feel passionately about.

I've tried focusing on other things but that doesn't work, they always come back, I find trying to focus away from the thoughts just makes it worst as they will persist harder as soon as I'm aware I'm resisting them to focus on something else. I do want a head on approach against them to overcome their control and power they have over me.

Perhaps I'm viewing this acceptance the wrong way, the way I see it, it would involve purposefully thinking the thoughts I fear and saying they're true or something which would cause a lot of anxiety I would imagine, to say these things or whenever these intrusive thoughts come up I would do the above and by doing so I would know there wouldn't be any safety behaviour I could possibly do thus reducing the mental strain/effort that goes into defending myself from the thoughts. But maybe reinforcing the intrusive and negative thoughts/beliefs that aren't true to begin with.