Michael Jackson Dead?

I don't think "what-if's" serve a useful purpose and they tend to stir up a person's own thoughts rather than the reality which is that we don't know what we don't know.

so i get what everyone is saying.. its an interesting world...
i accused my dad of sexual abuse (12+ yrs of it) my mom said it wasnt true.. so no one believes me..but somehow im still left damaged from the abuse that did happen.. i didnt just dream it up one day..
i feel for the kids in this accusation true or not its not for us to judge or ignore the possibilities ..out of all the world we here at pc where we each have our own stories accusations and trouble should not just ignore these calls of victims..
im unaffected by his death i didnt know him
for those who love his tunes they are still there
enjoy listening to them for a long time to come
but dont hate on the haters for they feel triggered and disgusted by some accused acts.

I feel bad that the topic of Michael Jackson has triggered many abuse victims here at psychcentral. I am the first to jump and support victims of sexual abuse. In everyday average peoples lives many children fall prey to being abused - because they slip through the cracks and no one is protecting them.
I think the reason why I'm leaving room for doubt in the MJ case is because many stars do fall victim to false allegations for money. My last post put alot of BLAME on the parents of these children. Pedopliles can only strike when there is no one to guard them(parents). What parent wouldn't know if there child was at Michael Jackson's house. Why did they consent to leave their children ALONE. If they were molested then I blame MJ and the PARENTS equally. I think the parents knew exactly what they were doing and planned it all for money. Those parents would have to be living in a cave not to have heard the rumors -yet they still let their children be around him.
Anything I've said doesn't relate to the abuse that many here have suffered because it's easier to know you're truthful because you had no motives like money to gain. Personally I hate molesters with a passion.
I'm just saying that because large amounts of money were involved this casts a doubt and also because these children didn't just wander into his grasp, but rather handed to him by the parents willingly.
My opinion is this way only in regards to MJ and the fact there was money involved. Please don't think that I'm talking about your cases of abuse at all.

My neice was abused by the same person who abused me and others in the family, she went to court and accepted money as a settlement rather than push things further (we no longer talk) however this does not make her claim invalid because she accepted money.

As for the parents then yes they too are at fault.

______________________

FYI the money was accepted by a thirteen year old so I would imagine he took his parents advice not understanding that it would in fact make his claim look a lie.

I'm not saying that regular civilian cases deserve to be doubted because they accepted money - only because at the time MJ had billions and I'm sure they got alot more than your niece. I don't like the way his death is making all of us fight. I'm not painting a broad paintbrush over all cases of abuse that have accepted money - I mean if a regular person can hit them in their pocket then great. I would be the first to beat the crap out of a pedophile - it someone did that to my girls they would be dead. My fight ISN'T with any the sweet people hear. It's with the parents/guardians of those kids in the MJ case. This whole issue is giving me a bad headache and I don't think I should talk about it anymore. It' seems like no matter how hard I try to say I'm not talking about your cases - someone still gets mad. I don't know why it' so hard to understand that.

I was angry I admit it and am sorry if this has upset you, I was wrong in attacking you, which I did.

Sorry.

Thank you Tishie and I understand how this whole topic must be triggering for you. I'm a mom and I consider abusers of children the most hideous creatures on earth. My heart aches for all victims who have suffered abuse. My war is not with anyone here, but with the parents/guardians of those kids in th MJ case. I accept your apology and I feel much better now. Thanks again

Wow. The topic has been something!!!

I am also of the opinion that there was something up w/Mr. Jackson. I also see the signs of a pedophile there. I also was not present. I DO find it strange that he physically altered his appearance into something that would frighten a child (in my opinion). I find it strange that there were payoffs. I find it strange that both Cory Feldman and Macaulay Culkin grew up to have drug, etc., problems (although it's not unusual for child stars...).

If the general public is going to pick on people, we could all get on Farrah's case for her nude pictorials, her relationship and child w/o a marriage, and staying w/a known d/v abuser/violent alcoholic. Her son is in jail...? These things were barely mentioned.

Ed McMahon recently went bancrupt.

Carradine died in some sort of sexually-charged situation.

I'm just saying these things COULD be mentioned. To me, they were all still people. I HOPE DEARLY that Mr. Jackson did not do anything b/c, to my way of thinking, he could be in VERY DEEP doodoo by now. If Ms. Fawcett felt that nudity is an art dorm, then so be it. That has nothing to do w/me. I hope she was happy w/her bf.

And to all the others. I wish for happiness for each person. I cannot judge that which I do not know. I hope this comes across as I want it to.

Okay, I just have to say something about the "sharing one's bed with children" comment. I was very angry when CBS reported that comment out of context, especially right after he died. If one would watch the long interview where he MJ makes this comment, you would understand what he was talking about. He was talking about sleepovers, things kids do a lot of, how they would sit or snuggle on his bed and watch movies together. Sharing his bed wasn't a sexual comment at all. Me and my husband have done this with my own children, step and my own like forever and it doesn't mean anything bad. It is just a way some families stay close together, it is an innocent bonding experience. A lot of those kids he did this with had no love or affection from anyone, it probably helped them if anything feel accepted and loved. It wasn't a sexual thing at all. I used to do this with my friends growing up all the time. Just because it is a "BED' doesn't mean it involves sex. Just ask my DH who we still sleep in the same bed, but we don't SLEEP together if you know what I mean.
That quote taken out of context has been going around for as long as that interview, and I find it interested how people will read what they want into it, people who didn't even see the entire interview. When he talks about it being natural he is talking about what families do with each other, snuggling and all that stuff. NOT SEX! Yes, he was an adult, but he tried to give love and physical comfort to those who came from broken families, support he never received as a child. I am completely against child abuse but I find what people are saying about him in this way, is taken way out of context. But it is also the same people who say breast feeding past 6mo. is sexual abuse too.

I also want to say that there are very few famous musicians out there that have lived squeaky clean lives, we have all made mistakes in our lives, only ours aren't on the front page of a newspaper or spread all over the news.

I think what it all boils down to is we would all like to be able to STOP
horrible acts of child molestation , murder , rape and anything else that
burns us up inside. But we CAN'T , and that's what hurts the most.
Sorry if I have offended anyone.

we have shared beds with children many times, without any thought of sexually molesting them
it is a rather radical assumption to judge from this l

If my boys told me that a man/friend spent the night in bed with them then I would call the police, it is not normal for a man/friend to get into bed with young boys.

For whatever reason ......

I could not have said it better.

Just to set the story straight about David Carradine....
He was murdered. It was staged as a sexual act gone bad.

This is exactly my point (which I made in my second post on this thread pg.4)...Once it is read in the tabloids from the media, it is taken as the gospel truth and then spread like a plague.

What people do is their own business, so long as it poses no threat to another. This applies to every single One.

Shangrala

Tish, that is really stupid, & you usually aren't stupid, so we assume this issue has triggered you

Maybe this thread should be closed, as it seems to have triggered so many members

LOL how is it stupid ? Explain please and yes I believe it is triggering me however I seem to be keeping a handle on it so not too worried ......

PS.......

If one would watch the long interview where he MJ makes this comment, you would understand what he was talking about. He was talking about sleepovers, things kids do a lot of, how they would sit or snuggle on his bed and watch movies together. Sharing his bed wasn't a sexual comment at all. Me and my husband have done this with my own children, step and my own like forever and it doesn't mean anything bad. It is just a way some families stay close together, it is an innocent bonding experience. A lot of those kids he did this with had no love or affection from anyone, it probably helped them if anything feel accepted and loved. It wasn't a sexual thing at all. I used to do this with my friends growing up all the time. Just because it is a "BED' doesn't mean it involves sex.

Yes, he was talking about sleepovers... sleepovers at which the children said he sexually abused them. According to MJ, it wasn't sexual, it was simply love... and snuggling and sleeping in the same bed was a natural extension of that love.

Forty-five year old men typically don't snuggle and sleep in the same bed with preteen boys (please note, it was NEVER girls) because of a natural extension of their 'love' for them. There is a distinct subgroup of people who hold those kind of beliefs, and that subgroup is that of pedophiles.

My father is a pedophile, and although he sexually abused me as well, his preference was always for boys. I spent my life growing up with a man who groomed boys for his own sexual pleasure. I saw how he 'loved' them, and how he justified his actions by his depth of 'care' for them.

I don't see any difference between what MJ did and what my father did. I don't see any difference in the way they think, when it comes to their love for boys.

It makes me sick that people can't see they way MJ justified his relationships with boys. I really don't understand how people can't see it.

Hey everyone....I greatly appreciate your input into this thread. I'm certainly not judging one against another here as we are all absolutely entitled to our own opinions.

I'm gently asking that we please be aware that not everyone has the same opinion as you do, but let's keep things respectful to each other please. We all come from different experiences and there is no right or wrong about how any of you are feeling right now.

With love & respect
sabby

If my boys told me that a man/friend spent the night in bed with them then I would call the police, it is not normal for a man/friend to get into bed with young boys.

Tish, that is really stupid, & you usually aren't stupid, so we assume this issue has triggered you


Perhaps this is a cultural difference, Zorah, but where I live it is definitely NOT normal for grown men to sleep in the same bed as young boys. I hardly think that is stupid of Tishie to think that.
Most men I know would go out of their way to avoid sleeping in the same bed as a boy that was not their own son.

Tish,

So since me and my husband snuggle with our kids, that makes us pedophiles to you? I have snuggled with my stepson, does that make me sick in your eyes?

I actually do understand why you see things this way, because you have been abused , but just because people snuggle, doesn't mean anything sexual is going on in all cases. Do you see how you might see this situation more negatively than others, because of your past? Most men are good men who would never hurt a child. It is okay for men to show affection and love kids, it doesn't make them pedophiles.

There was a group of boys, and none of the rest of them could say anything sexual happened during this time, you would think someone saw something. It may have happened, but there is no proof and no other children have come out.

My son's boy scouts leaders sleep in the same tent as the boys, does this mean anything sexual is going on?
Heck I used to snuggle with my daycare kids on the couch when we read books, and believe me nothing sexual was going on. Sexual abuse can happen anywhere at any time, we can't just assume it happens just because people are snuggling or are close. If this was a 45yr. old lady doing the same thing, would be as so fast to judge.
If most of these parents, who knows MJ better than we do, trusted him with their kids, even after hearing 1 or 2 allegations (which weren't ever proven), than I tend to believe they thought he was safe. Anyone that famous and rich is a target of false allegations, and maybe he should have been more careful and not ever been in the room alone with the boys. But there wasn't just one boy alone with him, it was a group of boys. We haven't head of any of those boys claiming the same thing.

My personal opinion is that I think Michael Jackson liked boys because he felt like one and because he longed for a childhood he never had.

Of course, the reality is that we don't know.

Just wanted to toss something out into the wind here!!

First let me state that I DO NOT condone ANY type of abuse/neglect of children!!

This is in regards to a comment I read here that says a friend/man sleeping in a bed with a boy is not normal.

I am not intending to argue, or say anyone's opinion is wrong, I would just like to play the devils advocate here, in a sense.

I would agree, that under NORMAL circumstances, a grown man/friend, bringing children into his bed for sleepovers, playing and cuddling would not seem appropriate to me, and I would be extremely vigilant about these activities if I allowed them to proceed at all.

I do not necessarily see, in the case of MJ, that this was a normal circumstance. It has been said by many who have known him that he had the emotional development of a child and was a very childlike man. I think, with a history of abuse, it is possible for a man, who had his childhood robbed from him by abuse and by being thrown into the adult music industry at such a young age, to regress into childhood himself and get caught there and be unable to process his own trauma's and therefor unable to move forward. I am not saying that he was not a pedophile, or that he never committed inappropriate acts with children....maybe he did, but I was not there and a jury found that they did not have the appropriate evidence to convict on these charges. None of us were there to see what was really going on.

I think it is quite possible that a man with the emotional development of a child would have poor boundaries and coping strategies and may have felt certain things were appropriate when in fact they violated certain societal rules/boundaries. I can understand a childlike man wanting to play and have fun like a kid and wanting to do kid things.

I guess what I am trying to say is, in MJ, I see a man with a serious lack of boundaries, poor coping skills, emotional dysregulation, self destructive tendencies, exaggerated and fragmented identity states, and most likely depression, along with a HUGE fear of abandonment and a HUGE fear of adult people in general. I am not a professional, but I think a professional might just call this borderline personality disorder.

I'm sorry if this triggers anyone and I am sorry if this causes those that just need to judge him as bad or wrong to feel some sort of compassion for him, but I think he was a very sick man with a very sick child on the inside who just happened to be a tremendously talented person. He dared to push past his own disorders and experiences to bring music to the world. Can't we just accept that no one but the ones on the inside will ever know for sure and let the man rest in peace?

That's all.

Let him rest in peace... I agree!

The only problem I have with this conversation is the fruit salad being made of it, comparing apples to oranges, etc. Cuddling with one's own kids is not similar to a single man having sleepovers at his house and parents letting their child go spend the night with him! THAT is what I find stupid, I don't understand where the parents were that several boys at once would all spend the night at this guy's house with no other "adults" there. I don't know that it was sexual, I never felt Michael was mature enough that I'd want my son to stay in his care; I wouldn't let a bunch of boys all stay together with no adults and I don't think Michael was an adult.

His was "pop" music and not anything I think would last if his personality/quirkinesses wasn't behind it. I think he did for videos what the Beatles did for records and what Elvis did for rock and roll, etc.

I am a 46 year old single man that has never been married ,
have no interest in little boys or little girls. In fact I'm afraid
to even look at them in fear that I will be branded as some
kind of freak or pedophile. There is a huge lack of trust in this
world . Everyone has they're guard up and rightfully so . There
are so many sick , disturbed people in this world. My co-workers
branded me as being gay because I never really talked much
about the opposite sex . No offense to the gay people that's
their sexual preference. But believe me I am definitely NOT gay,
nor am I a pedophile. Just an example of how people are quick
to brand or judge others before they know the facts.