[TheDragon]

I searched for, and failed to find the essay "Paulo Coelho on the Inspiration Behind Veronika Decides to Die" so I decided to type it up by hand because it was worth sharing. Please note the statistics about Canada are no longer up to date, but are still relevant.

About the author: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Coelho

About the novel (no real major spoilers, but it's not a spoiler kind of book): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veronika_Decides_to_Die

From Paulo Coelho on the Inspiration Behind Veronika Decides to Die:

According to Statistics Canada, forty percent of people between fifiten and thirty-four, thirty-three percent of people between thirty-five and fifty-four, and twenty percent of people between fifty-five and sixty-four have already had some kind of mental illness. It is thought that one in every five indivduals suffers from some form of psychiatric disorder.

I thought: Canada has never had a military dictatorship and it's considered to have the best quality of life in the world. Why then are there so many mad people there? Why aren't they in mental hospitals?

That question led me to another: What exactly is madness?

I found the answers to both those questions. First, people aren't placed in mental institutions if they continue to be socially productive. If you are capable of getting to work at 9:00 AM and staying until 5:00 PM, then society does not consider you incapacitated. It doesn't matter if you sit in a catatonic state in front of the television from 5:01 PM until 8:59 AM. You may indulge in the most perverted sexual fantasies on the Internet, stare at the wall blaming the world for everything and feeling generally put upon, feel afraid to go out into the street, be obsessed with cleanliness or lack of cleanliness, or suffer from bouts of depression and compulsive crying. As long as you can turn up for work and do your bit for society and you don't represent a threat. You're only a threat when the cup finally overflows and you go out into the street with machine gun in your hand, like a character in a child's cartoon, and kill fifteen children in order to alert the world to the pernicious effects of Tom and Jerry. Until you do that you are deemed normal.

And madness? Madness is the inability to communicate.

Between normality and madness, which are basically the same thing, there exists an intermediary stage: it is called "being different." And people were becoming more and more afraid of "being different." In Japan, after giving much thought to the statistical information I had just read, I decided to write a book based on my own experiences. I wrote Veronika Decides to Die in the third person and using my feminine ego because I knew that the important subject to be addressed was not what I personally experienced in mental institutions, but rather the risks we run by being different and, conversely, our horror of being the same.

[TheDragon]

I will post more from this essay later. He talks about his journey through mental hospitals as well as what "pushed" him past being "ill."

[Open Eyes]

Oh Dragon,
That is very interesting, thank you I do hope you add more.

I have to say that it has been very troubling to me to try to understand that very fact that as long as people can function on what appears to be a normal level during a working productive period, they are not considered a problem. And I do agree that most people do have some type of so called mental illness. But I actually prefer the word perception, many people have issues in the way they perceive society and the world and themselves.

It would be interesting if the information that you are going to present addresses how people within society or different societies internalize too much. I do believe there is a great difficulty within individuals, as I see in pretty much all the different forums, with the way they do internalize too much.

Now, as I have stated many times in different posts I do believe that many difficulties arise from how a young brain is exposed to various deficiencies while growning and developing. I truely feel that because there is often no regard to the child within a family situation, children do suffer and become adults with problems that involve no methods to prevent them from internalizing situations too much, and also because of some lack of developemental necessity there also arises problems with perception as well.

When I was in a psychward myself I did have that one burning question as I peered into the eyes of the other patients. What happened to this person in their childhood, what was missing?

No, we are expected to somehow learn to deal with all the external issues that come throughout life. But, many people really do not know how to do this. So, we do have people who can function on a scheduled agenda that is a daily function. But, as is mentioned in what you have suggested, when they are on their own time they are not normal, have issues and are experiencing psychological issues.

My wonder is that one is only trained to pretend at functioning for a time but is not truely a whole functioning person psychologically. Many describe it as putting on that pretend face. So if you are going to take the observations of people that are full grown and are in various institutions, I cannot help but feel that something very significant is being left out.

Dragon I cannot forget the study done with a monkey that had only been given a metal mother and no love and interaction, something done very well by lower primates. That monkey could not socialize or function within a group at all.

When we study primates in the wild, they do make sure that the young becomes a part of the group and is loved and tended to and it is not only done by the mother but by the group. That young monkey's brain is exposed to the necessities to function with the group or small society of monkeys.

Human primates do not always follow this and often leave many significant steps out while the human brain is growning and developing.

But I am very interested in hearing more from you.

Open Eyes

[Open Eyes]

As I was reading the link that you posted it made me think about not only what I have said above but I have given more thought about the experiment done by the doctor mentioned.

It was said that he wanted to see what would happen if a person was given a diagnosis of a shortened life, and how that would effect that persons state of mind.

I think that was an interesting experiment. If a person has a real sense of less time for life perhaps they stop internalizing so much and begin to view what they will miss about life. As young children face different external stimuli and are not versed on how to react I do believe they begin to internalize these different external experiences. Depending on what these experiences are a child who cannot bear the strain of internalizing it all, begins to find different ways of escaping whatever the external issues they cannot handle, or have not learned to handle.

As these children age and learn more, they can take the past and begin to internalize more, thus, they can feel extreme guilt, anger, deficiency, and even self punish in various ways. Though they do not really understand that they were never taught how to be safe, have trust, and view various experiences, the idea of trying to perform such tasks other than given daily tasks can cause depressive psychologal
processes.

I have seen and even read various posts that display emotional stress over the fact that while young they were deprived of feeling as a significant entity. To be seen and not heard or to have a specific kind of appearance or have to fit in to a parents expectation, rather than being allowed to develope their own identity. As this author has described, he wanted to become a writer, his parents felt that was an unacceptable goal and thus institutionalized him. This is a perfect example of denying a child to form an identity of their own. I have seen this myself in dealing with children and it is often done unintentionally by a parent's ignorance. But, it can lead to a child denying themselves for many years as was the case with Paulo. He did eventually find his way, but not without reservations and possibly feeling that he was going against the grain so to speak.

I wonder if the fact that by his travels and observing other societies etc. his own find of overcoming illness was infact finding a way to proceed with his orignal desire, finally writing and slowly being praised for his contributions. Thus allowing him to interalize his original desire that was considered a frivilous and unacceptable choice differently.

Children often display certain attributes when they are young. One child can spend hours playing with toy bulldozers and moving dirt around in a sand box. If that child were to be left to his own path of desire he may find a fruitful rewarding life as a person who does that for a living. However if he was told to stop doing that and made to do something else he may live out his whole life feeling denied and not truely realizing what was being denied. Yes, he may be able to perform a daily function within a certain guideline, putting on that pretend face, but while not in that atmosphere feel unfulfilled and confused in some way.

Open Eyes

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

No, we are expected to somehow learn to deal with all the external issues that come throughout life. But, many people really do not know how to do this. So, we do have people who can function on a scheduled agenda that is a daily function. But, as is mentioned in what you have suggested, when they are on their own time they are not normal, have issues and are experiencing psychological issues.

My wonder is that one is only trained to pretend at functioning for a time but is not truely a whole functioning person psychologically. Many describe it as putting on that pretend face.

There is no one "in charge" so that we are supposed to come out "all right". We are all in the same boat.

[TheDragon]

Open Eyes - I think you missed the point entirely.

Pachyderm - That's some of the ideas that Paulo Coelho is getting at. The division between "madness" and "sanity" and the lines between normality, functionality, and simply being different.

More to come tonight.

[pachyderm]

Sigmund Freud wrote "The Psychopathology of Everyday Life".

[Open Eyes]

Well, maybe if I see more of your input Dragon I will see other aspects of this mans journey and how he was pushed pass being ill.

What I had gotten by Paulo's life is that he was denied his true desire for a very long time. The fact that he eventually got the opportunity to experience and enact his desire and did infact do well was telling me something very significant.

Theres no one in charge? And when that happens we are just supposed to come out all right, but that doesn't happen. For a person to come out right they have to learn to be in charge of themselves, and not be denied. Paulo's parents denied him of his true desire. What I see of mental illness, something has been denied somewhere within that patient. Now I am not talking about brain defects and severe mental illness due to lack of the brain functioning properly.

I would be curious to see what Paulo's impressions were of the mental hospitals and what he saw in the different patients. I even wonder if in some of these institutions patients are continued to be denied. I do know that has happened in the past.

I do know that children are still lacking the guidance they need to learn good coping skills and yes, they can be denied their own personal identity. When someone says they wasted their life, they had talents but were never encouraged to use these gifts and they often do not realize it until later in life that really is a waste.

But lets see what Paulo says. Maybe his point is different.

Open Eyes

[TheDragon]

More from the same essay. This bit is from before the first segment I posted.

****

So one day I decided to trash my bedroom. It was a way of saying without words: "You see, I can't live in the real world. I can't get a job. I can't realize my dream. I think you're absolutely right. I am mad, and I want to go back to the mental hospital!"

Fate can be so ironic. When I had finished wrecking my room I was relieved to see my parents were phoning the psychiatric hospital. However, the doctor that usually dealt with me was on vacation. The nurses arrived with a junior doctor in two. He saw me sitting there surrounded by torn-up books, broken records, and ripped curtains, and asked my family and the nurses to leave the room.

"What's going on?" he asked.

I didn't reply. A madman should always behave like someone not of this world.

"Stop playing around," he said. "I've been reading your case history. You're not mad at all and I won't admit you to the hospital."

He left the room, wrote a prescription for some tranquillizers, and (I found out later) told my parents that I was suffering from "admission syndrome." Normal people who at some point find themselves in abnormal situation - such as depression, panic, etc - occasionally use illness as an alternative to life. That is, they choose to be ill because being "normal" is too much like hard work. My parents listened to his advice and never again had me admitted to a mental institution.

From then on I could no longer seek comfort in madness. I had to lick my wounds alone. I had to lose some battles and win others. I often had to abandon my impossible dream and work in offices instead, until one day I gave it all up for the nth time and I went on a pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela. There I realized that I could not keep refusing to face up to the fate of "being an artist," which in my case meant being a writer. So at thirty-eight I decided to write my first book and risk entering into a battle which I had always subconsciously feared: the battle for a dream.

****

I wonder what would have happened if Paulo Coelho was readmitted and was continuously treated as "ill." Carl Jung had an idea that no matter what, someone had to be pushed to their very limits out of their comfort zone in the real world.

[Open Eyes]

Very interesting Dragon. I will have to think on that, Im tired, thought about evil today too much. I just have to write something so I have it in my statistics to think about. I did try to look that up too but I couldn't find it. You had said I missed the point, well as I read here, I see something different.

As I read the last few lines, I wonder that too.

Open Eyes

[venusss]

That is a very interesting part.... and yes, i believe many do depend on their madness... because it feels like a get out of life free card... Even Susana Kayesen admited madness provides one a safe place from the world... for those who can afford it.

I shrug when I see people call hospital a vacation or place to go when things get too tough. Especially when definition of what is "too tough" is personal and relative.

Life is a struggle. We must face it. No other way around.

"....the battle for a dream."

How hard is that, how almost impossible for so many?
First, to be who you are, and not what others say you must be...to be an individual in a world filled with stereotypes and labels; and then to actually pursue the dream for which you were created.

How many actually have the honesty, and the courage to implement their uniqueness?

[ECHOES]

madness is like nervous breakdown. They are just terms for being not in touch with reality. A break in being in touch with reality. Sometimes short-term and sometimes longer.

If we want a definition---I was taught this one.

Isn't there a Mental Health Continuum?

At one end of the spectrum=ability to function ADL's--------the other=inability to function ADL's (activities of Daily Living)---as pointed out by you, Dragon.

The main point of my post here, was that it is veritably impossible to be an individual in our society; not to mention an individual with great talent; without great ridicule thrown at you by others, and the many other impediments that go with great loneliness.

Look at the great artists, musicians, writers of all times--------how many went "mad"
or, rather lost their ability to function because of the cruelty of a world which does not encourage individuality? They had no support systems, no guidance--they had to forge their own path..............

This is a lonely, and an unatural path--it easily can lead one to an inability to "function" in our society, then, and now.

Far easier, as VenusHalley puts it, to attain a " get out of life free pass" to "madness".

One who shows signs of mental aberration is, inevitably, perhaps, but cruelly, shut off from familiar, thoughtless intercourse, partly excommunicated; his isolation is unwittingly proclaimed to him on every countenance by curiosity, indifference, aversion, or pity, and in so far as he is human enough to need free and equal communication and feel the lack of it, he suffers pain and loss of a kind and degree which others can only faintly imagine, and for the most part ignore. ~Charles Horton Cooley

To the cynics, madness will always be a personal failing. Shell shocked soldiers were accused of being malingerers. The "get out of life free pass" is a prelude to just get over it. I have been told more than once, "We do not think you are lazy." My journey to wellness has been fraught with misadventures, sisyphian I suppose.



Coelho was blessed by the visit of the junior doctor. The visit fostered his resolve. I have been blessed by those who treated me. I have not lost my resolve, despite the critics who remind me I could do more if I really wanted to. Then again, I know the strength of my will; and whether I merit the label of malingerer.

[venusss]

To the cynics, madness will always be a personal failing.

Well, cynicism is a way of coping for some of us. Many of mad geniuses resorted to cynicism.

Shell shocked soldiers were accused of being malingerers.

Today they are told the suffer some sort of "disorder".

The "get out of life free pass" is a prelude to just get over it. I have been told more than once, "We do not think you are lazy." My journey to wellness has been fraught with misadventures, sisyphian I suppose.

Well, as in everything in life you have to get over it... of course you have choice to give up... but of some of us (however cynical we are) we do not want to give up and stop living.

I guess I can pre-emptively react to "would you tell person to get over cancer" comment that may follow... even with physical illness, when you give up... the latest modern scientific treatment will not save you.


Coelho was blessed by the visit of the junior doctor. The visit fostered his resolve. I have been blessed by those who treated me. I have not lost my resolve, despite the critics who remind me I could do more if I really wanted to. Then again, I know the strength of my will; and whether I merit the label of malingerer.

Coelho was saved by somebody who did not enable him in critical moment.

I am not saying this would work for everybody. Perhaps some can't be saved. Perhaps some don't want to be saved, because living in their world of madness is much more comfortable than living in the real world.... which is also kinda mad.

The just-get-over-it paradigm espoused by the you-are-a-malingerer crowd again.

As I said, I am happy for Coelho. He received effective treatment. There is a lessen there that I have embraced long ago.

[venusss]

Maybe it is not about "treatment" when we are talking human psyche or... *gasp* the soul.
It was not "treatment" in the classical sense of word that saved Coelho... It was him realizing *he* is the one in power of his own destiny.

Also, as somebody who volunteered with refugees and is friends with people from former Yugoslavia, survivors of a genocidal war.... I prefer not to throw the term "suffering" around too much. Sure I been deep down in existential darkness... at many times I felt there is not point to life... but I would not dare to compare myself to those who experiences real (or external) traumas.

We get choice in our life, what to do with it. That I believe. It may be cynical of me, but it helps me to carry on.

[FooZe]

Originally Posted by TheDragon

I will post more from this essay later...

I found a copy of that essay here. It's part of a larger collection, about 1/10 of the way down a long page. Ordinarily you'd get to it quickly by searching the page for "coelho" but be warned: they misspell his name as "coehlo". Searching that page for "madness" gets me several hits within Coelho's essay and only one in someone else's.

[TheDragon]

THank you FooZe! You're amazing. I spent a good bit of time searching for this, including copying and pasting what I had into Google.

This is actually awesome if anyone wants to read through it because Paulo Coelho does talk how in 1999, a senator read from passages of Coelho's works in order to help a law forbidding arbitrary admissions into mental institutions; A law many were trying to get through the Brazilian Congress for a decade.

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

Shell shocked soldiers were accused of being malingerers.

Today they are told the suffer some sort of "disorder".

You know, enough is just enough.

The psychological trauma that soldiers experience is very real. It can be incapacitating, and I daresay is outside the realm of anything you have ever experienced.

This is not a theory. This is not in a book. This is not something to sit and ponder and discuss over coffee. This is a real thing. It's called PTSD.

It manifests in very real ways, the armed services have spent years marginalizing it, putting it in "quotes" as you have done - all the while telling them to "man up". These are already powerful men and women.

Man up when you have been to war.

A lot of soldiers drink to self-medicate. They have to fight, even when they get home, to get the help they have earned from the veteran's administration.

If you have any doubts, spend some time with soldiers and their families. Walk through hospitals around military bases here in the US. Watch medivac helicopters bring the wounded soldiers in.

These soldiers deserve our respect, our gratitude and the absolute best this country can give them.

Your minimization of their suffering is insulting.

[Open Eyes]

After reading the next entry I still think about what Paulo was originally denied.

Originally Paulo wanted to write, and his parents considered it an unhealthy goal.
His parents started his process of denial. Think about that for a minute.

And when I read what he wrote about finally quitting a type of job his parents or perhaps society deemed an acceptable healthy disire, he spoke of a fear of taking a chance in trying to do what he originally wanted to do.

Ok, perhaps we can even use GAYS and LESBIANS here. Look at all the things these individuals had to go through to finally get to where they are now. If it is true that this is caused by chromozones that makes a person born with this desire and it is denied them what can that mean? If a person is born with a desire to write or make music or be a philospher etc. but is denied, it could make them deny themselves and even hide in madness or by ending thier life. This has been the case with many. The intense fear of telling a parent the truth is significant for many of these people. And then they can live a life that is not a full life and they hide or even lie or give up.
And to finally "Come out" so to speak is scarey for them. I am just trying to use this as an example here.

What I think that Paulo is saying as he finally gives in to what he really wanted to do, is he had doubts. He probably felt that if he didn't make it, his parents were right and he was wrong. So he wasn't sure, but that was instilled in him, that brought on that desire to just give in and want to be institutionalized.

Yes, that doctor did not allow him to display his anger at being denied, as many children do. And he realized that he had nothing else to do but go forward and do what was expected. He did do that but he never forgot his original desire. And because of what happened he wondered if he really could do it, but he had to see.

And what he eventually did see is that he could do it and he was good at it and he finally got to be what he felt in his heart.

But, the escape to a mental institution is not the answer. The only way it could be an answer is if an instution was designed to find out exactly what a person has been denied. It doesn't work that way, at least not then. And it didn't look that way in my visit either, although I was in a psychward, I did listen to the other patients and I did hear what they wanted and they did talk about being denied. And as I listened I was able to point out what they may have missed and actually one woman had great ideas, only she lacked in having the right person to implement her ideas. When I told her that, her whole face lit up and she followed me around, wanted to hear more. I really liked her ideas and I really think that had she had the right source or person who would help her get the next step, she would have done ok. She was an idea person, but no one saw it. And she had invested in this idea and it didn't get off the ground because she didn't have the right person and she was riddled with guilt. She had shock therapy and she was on several medications and she couldn't even say if any of the medications worked. She just got in with the wrong people who took advantage. You cant shock guilt away and you cant medicate it either.

Do people hide in mental illness, yes some of them probably do. But WHY, is it always their fault? I wonder about that. I think it was patchyderm who said no one is in charge. Oh I definitely agree with that. I have worked with children that denied themselves unknowingly. I brought them out, not in my ring would they do that.
And that is what I loved about what I did and that is what I loved about being a MOTHER, a REAL MOTHER, not just by the fact that I BORE A CHILD. And my child had obstacles and I made sure I exposed her to everything I could. I told her that I didn't care if she wanted to be a pig farmer, as long as she was happy. And any time someone told her that she would not be able to do what she wanted to do, I stepped in and told her, not a good person to be around, lets find someone better to teach you. And she still does that on her own and she is not afraid to do WHAT SHE WANTS TO DO. And I am not talking about being spoiled or selfish, I am talking about her deciding on GOALS and STRIVING FOR THOSE GOALS. And, if she falls, she gets up and tries again.

Some people have genuine illness, and they really struggle, THEY DO WANT TO GET BETTER, BUT THEY DONT KNOW HOW. I struggle and I hate what I have PTSD and I do want to get better and I am trying to learn. I have had a many struggles, been to hell as someone put it, but I still try. And I do say, that until you walk in the shoes of another, you should not condem them. Your absoluty right ((((((( elliemay)))))))).

I am glad that Paulo finally got to live his life as HE WANTED originally. And I am glad that he didn't go to the Mental instiution. But it did take courage for him to do what he wanted and I am sure the doubt was instilled long ago by the way a parent reacted to his desire a long time ago. He did move on and partake in life, but he wasn't truely FULFILLED until he got to try his original desire.

Open Eyes

[venusss]

you know I am not minimazing anything. I just have problem with PTSD being seen as "disorder". Implying somebody is disordered because they have hard time with dealing with being in war...

I find that insulting.

I am not saying it is not an issue... but it's not a disorder. It's natural reaction and i would be more worried if somebody returned from hell and was totally untouched by it.

I know people who been to war and I am not lessening anything... Implying it is a mere disorder, something in brain yadda yadda... is indeed minimazing the issue. Where are the other aspects, i.e. moral issues?

Thank you, elliemay. The time I spent in a war zone over forty years ago changed me forever. Yes, sometimes people have a hard time dealing with war. It is not as simple as that sounds.

No matter, I acknowledge I am responsible for my well-being. My treatment team can help me with the semantics. I will leave the finger-pointing to the sciolists.

[Open Eyes]

Well Venus, I have a problem with it too. I have been doing a lot of trying to understand how it can just seem to take over. In fact anyone that has it feels the same way, thus the anger and rage and even depression.

I might have felt the same way as you had I not experienced it, but now I am no longer IGNORANT of it. And your still pretty young and I hope you never have it. And you will never understand it. But maybe if you studied it and could see how a brain can change from it, than you may be more understanding of it.

Some people have it and don't even realize it. No one wants to have it and they want to find a way to deal with it and as Byz puts it, he has been helped by a treatment team, I give him a lot of credit for that effort.

I think that living in a situation that can be termed as hell does leave its mark, we do call it PTSD. A disorder is when the brain has trouble bringing order to certain aspects of unwanted feelings or memories that are so ingrained in the brain that it remains very troubled even when one trys to overcome it.

But as most people with PTSD it is often useless to try to explain it to others, many don't know and many don't care to know. And I certainly prefer to deal with those that study it and understand it and accept the fact that it is difficult for someone that has it.

And I certainly don't say I know it all, but I do share what ever SUPPORT AND UNDERSTANDING that I can to others that do have different so called disorders.

Open Eyes