What exactly is madness?

The point is not that mental illness comes from being a malingerer or personal failing. I think we all experience symptoms which can make life very difficult to function through. Nobody is saying you can just ‘get over it.’ But how we deal with these symptoms is a choice. It is not all chemicals and brain structures. To get where I am, I had to choose to do the work I do.

I really think this is the elephant in the room that nobody wants to discuss – the times I could cut but struggle to find a way not to. The times when the negative thoughts are alluring and threaten to overwhelm, but I fight them off… and the times when I do not. When it’s just easier to go through the bad moments than to do the work, even when I know I could probably do some very uncomfortable things to lessen my bad experiences. At what point am I held accountable for this? We all have our crosses in life to bear. When does the element of personal responsibility come back on me for not appropriately dealing with the problems I have? Because it’s not always that I ‘can’t,’ particularly after I’ve learned coping mechanisms. But that it’s so damn difficult and daunting sometimes and requires too much energy. Am I not still responsible for maintaining myself?

As for the discussion on PTSD – is it really considered to be ‘disordered’ to experience some difficulties because you killed someone and were almost killed yourself? I agree that I would be worried if someone did not experience aftereffects due to these kinds of extreme situations. Nobody’s trying to be disrespectful or undermine the suffering of these people. On the contrary – maybe it requires more than modern psychology can fully account for? Psychology is a science. It’s distant and detached, even while trying to help. And there are some personal issues it does not tackle well. I think looking at the brain certainly has it’s place, but sometimes the problems run deeper, and more help than just psychological help is needed for these problems.

I agree with a lot of what you say, Vibe. Nevertheless, there are those who do say or at least imply mental illness is something to just get over. As I have said, I take responsibility for my well-being.

I have no idea what you are referring to when you say more than just psychological help is needed at times. I have not quit on trying to get better.

I am fresh out of divine intervention.

I think the only elephant in the room is the lack of understanding. And perhaps you are right about some issues that can run deeper than just receiving pshychological help or just trying to do the work as you say.
Somehow I hope not Vibe. It is thought that PTSD may effect the natural process of chemicals in the brain. I am leary of medication and I am trying to do the work without trying to put chemicals into my brain.

What I do feel and have learned by coming to PC is to do my best to not be judgemental of others. And I do understand that people do suffer and really try and also do the work and as you say and I know it is not easy. As for you congratulations on what you have been accomplishing, very inspiring.

And as you say often the science of psychology is often distant and still trying to understand the issues and find solutions.

While we cannot give up and hide within illness wether it be deemed a disorder by that science or not, we still have to realize that it is unfair to assume that those who do not seem able to succeed and remain in some way disabled, it may not be thier fault.

Hopefully the science will not remain at such a distance and more people will get the aid they need to help them better do the work and overcome their issues.

Open Eyes

The point is not that mental illness comes from being a malingerer or personal failing. I think we all experience symptoms which can make life very difficult to function through. Nobody is saying you can just ‘get over it.’ But how we deal with these symptoms is a choice. It is not all chemicals and brain structures. To get where I am, I had to choose to do the work I do.

While it is impossible to stop being depressed or stop having mood swings, I learned it is possible to stop having those to rule your life... It *is* possible to push through and go on with life, even if you are in a bad place at the moment. I like to believe that one can learn to live with the symptoms.... not because I believe people are fakers.... but because I believe in people. And I believe in myself..

It is also possible to learn to appreciate some of those emotions, instead of just trying to get rid of them. They can be channeled into something. Because look at it this way, you are never gonna get rid of it, even if you go by what modern science says. One still has episodes. It is still life long thing... so maybe one needs to change their attitude to wanting to be normal and than they have chance for living better, more fullfilling lifes.

I am just saying what worked for me. If you are gonna call me a faker, go ahead. But I would think it would be unfair... and hypocritical.

As for the discussion on PTSD – is it really considered to be ‘disordered’ to experience some difficulties because you killed someone and were almost killed yourself? I agree that I would be worried if someone did not experience aftereffects due to these kinds of extreme situations. Nobody’s trying to be disrespectful or undermine the suffering of these people. On the contrary – maybe it requires more than modern psychology can fully account for? Psychology is a science. It’s distant and detached, even while trying to help. And there are some personal issues it does not tackle well. I think looking at the brain certainly has it’s place, but sometimes the problems run deeper, and more help than just psychological help is needed for these problems.


No "treatment team" in the world can help one with answers to some question. When human life and its value, morality and right and wrong come to the equation... one is alone there to deal with it... maybe with some deities above. I am not even sure if it would be moral of some psychologist or psychiatrist to try to seriously address someone's moral struggles... as Ellie said.. it is not a book.

and addressing PTSD as mere issue of changes in brain... again is it really wrong and disordered for the person to be changed after traumatic experience? Of course they need to learn to live with it so it does not destroy them... but I think that adressing this as something that happens and is a natural reaction of human in inhumane conditions... one could learn from their experience and grow.
There was article on PC newsfeed about a pill to erase bad memories. But if it worked... would it be moral to give such pill to a person coming from combat?

I agree with a lot of what you say, Vibe. Nevertheless, there are those who do say or at least imply mental illness is something to just get over. As I have said, I take responsibility for my well-being.

and there *are* those who dwell on their illness as their identity... I had the "pleasure" to meet pack of young and not-so-young-anymore people at one party. It was a contest who has more expensive *private* shrink and better pills and who hates monday mornings more. They talked this over expensive wine... nouveau riche (if I wanted to complain I would say these are the people who stole the Velvet Revolution... they got it wrong, terribly wrong) with no aim in their life... besides their jobs and money (most of them hold positions with English name, where the English just indicates that they don't really do anything that contributes anything in the society...). When I mentioned I volunteered in Eastern Europe, they asked me "why?". See to them depression was just another fad, like house in "satellite town", hip car, LV purse and chivava dog or and vacation on Seychellas or whatever the trendy destionation is.

This is just one example, somehow extreme... but hey, it speaks volumes.

I have no idea what you are referring to when you say more than just psychological help is needed at times. I have not quit on trying to get better.

The concept of soul is often sneered as not scientific. I posted about soul and my journey not so long ago and did get some snarky reception

I think the only elephant in the room is the lack of understanding.

Indeed... trying to ran personal trauma through brain imagining... is lack of understanding.

Somehow I hope not Vibe. It is thought that PTSD may effect the natural process of chemicals in the brain. I am leary of medication and I am trying to do the work without trying to put chemicals into my brain.

Look, I don't think it matters here if the brain changes or not. Meds can only help this much.... and is not that much at all. Pill will not help you deal with the past. There is not chemical that would learn you to come to terms with it, let you move on and learn from your experience without it haunting you.

Hopefully the science will not remain at such a distance and more people will get the aid they need to help them better do the work and overcome their issues.

But what if science simply cannot adress all issues? Why ditch all the spirituality and philosophy just because it is not science?

What if we still need deities or other form of spirituality to guide us? Humanity certainly does not seem happier for ditching religion. In philosophy class we talked about how all the political and other idealogies are in a way a mean to replace religion as humans need sense of identity.

Maybe this is part of the answer... soul, purpose, identity, yadda yadda.

Consider the cumulative human experience. In order to feel mentally well, one needs a well rounded and fulfilling life. A pdoc can not write a script for friends. A therapist can listen to problems and maybe suggest taking certain approaches, but therapy alone will not do anything for an individual. One must actively make other changes in one’s life.

Looking at psychology as a scientific field highlights it’s obvious limitations. Science is not meant to give meaning in life. It’s meant to provide objective facts. Philosophy, spirituality, relationships, goals, etc. are still needed to make one’s life well-rounded. To provide meaning. When there are issues in these areas, some scientific information and therapeutic help may be useful, but so might a lot of other things. I would never have come as far as I did without someone who loved me. I’m getting further now because I have goals in life where I am challenged. Things to fight for. Professional psychiatric help did not provide any of these things.

It seems that psychology is trying to take the place of a priest in some ways, when it is obviously never going to provide that type of help. In order to fix my life, I need to look at all aspects of it from multiple angles. Not just the lens of psychology. That doesn’t necessarily mean divine intervention.


I don’t see how this is an elephant in the room. Lack of understanding and empathy for psychological disorders are considered a major issue these days. In fact, I would say people are becoming hyper-aware of the need for change in this area. It’s leading them to ignore problems at the other end of the spectrum.

Actually, this is the exact opposite of what needs to happen. The solution is not for science to take on roles it was never meant to have. It should not, as was stated earlier for example, provide moral compass. The same way religion should not claim to provide scientific facts. It is outside their realm. Instead, it is we who need to learn to look to multiple sources for way to heal, function, and deal with life. Psychology can not provide all the answers and it should not be expected to.

Consider the cumulative human experience. In order to feel mentally well, one needs a well rounded and fulfilling life. A pdoc can not write a script for friends. A therapist can listen to problems and maybe suggest taking certain approaches, but therapy alone will not do anything for an individual. One must actively make other changes in one’s life.

I think this is what Coelho adresses in his essay and in Veronika... some people fall into trap of "madness" of not wanting to deal with the world...

Getting into psychward is seeing as lifesaver....but when you are there the world does not stop and wait foryou to come back... if the external life falls appart while are you dealing with your inner struggle... it is not gonna help... mortage and bills still need to be paid.... maybe sometimes one has to tough it out, as there is not other choice for the moment.
if you let your jobs, friends and all this slip to deal with your issues.... how are you gonna come back?

This is a good point. Sometimes it’s not a matter of reducing symptoms, but learning how to cope with them. People should be empowered in these areas – especially because sometimes there is no other choice but to live with symptoms. Plus effective coping mechanisms can actually help reduce the impact, duration, and severity of episodes. By structuring my life in an extremely organized fashion and sticking to schedule, I managed to live for some time with extremely mild symptoms. There was a lot of specific stuff involved in this though – including forcing myself to get out and function even when I didn’t feel like it. The impact of will should not be undermined.


And there’s where philosophy and spirituality come in. Learning to accept what can not be changed allows one to focus on other aspects of life which provide meaning. It probably reduces the impact and prevalence of depression as well. If I sit around moping about how bad I feel, it’s probably going to make me feel a lot worse. Although to be fair, I still haven’t mastered a lot of areas here. Always room for improvement, right?


Science provides many things. Nuclear energy, antibiotics, etc. It is up to humanity to decide how to utilize these things. I’m still amazed that people still have trouble realizing that just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should do this thing. Or that maybe certain things need to be done conservatively and responsibly. I swear humanity as a whole lacks impulse control.


I find it funny how people are so quick to look at changes in the brain caused by traumatic events. But so rarely do we hear about the changes in the brain which can take place by learning to positively cope with events. Structuring thought and behavior in an appropriate fashion probably changes the brain too. There is a back and forth there which we do not understand yet. I’m personally hesitant to mess with brain chemistry using chemicals given the current state of knowledge regarding the brain.


Yes, I’ve considered it myself. ‘Can I manage to function anyways? What if I fail? Should I bother? There are other options available to me – professionally sick. Do I really want that? Can I avoid it?’ It still kind of haunts me, but sometimes when I’m really out of it, the idea seems enticing.

This bit about the psych ward is true, although sometimes it is a necessary evil. I personally avoid it unless I’m so suicidal I won’t live otherwise. Because mortgage, bills, friends, and job don’t mean a damn thing if I’m dead. However, if I’m not in that desperate a position, then it’s important to consider the pros and cons of going. Even when I felt bad recently, I knew I couldn’t afford to miss school. So it just wasn’t an option unless I reached that point of desperation. Managing the illness should only be one part of managing life.

Your hesitation is your choice, just as taking medications was a choice that helped me. Treatment helped me realize what changes needed to be made. It was and is up to me to follow through. Following through may have made positive changes in the brain. I do not know. I am not an expert. I do know I function at a higher level now.

Treatment is a tool. The suggestion that getting help is akin to closing one's mind and rolling over and playing dead is absurd. Taking a pill will not change the past but it may help me deal with it. As I have said repeatedly, I am responsible for my well-being. If others take a different path than mine, that is their choice. Nonetheless, I will not let others define who I am based on their personal agendas.

Again, as I have frequently said, there are many things I do not like about the current status of treatment for illnesses. I am not so narrow-minded as some of the comments suggest. Just the same, I happen to be more comfortable listening to professionals than the ubiquitous canting of naysayers.

So I am naysayer with agenda? Too bad I don't get paid for my agenda, as some professionals do... It is funny I am called nayser for believing in people. Maybe I should stop... I wonder if I should get prescription for some "stopbeingsodamnnaivein" and come to terms with the world. But that would mean giving up on myself and my species... If that is a form of madness, than I am gonna struggle hard to keep it.

I do not let others define me. Professionals or not. Having a degree in humanities I dwelved bit into psychology myself... and philosophy. The first thing we were told that in social sciences objective truth is hard to define.

Personally, I think the elephant in the room is that we are discussing very important matters here, but we certainly aren't communicating about them.

IMO, PTSD is the poster child of how things can go terribly wrong when problems are not identified and labeled. I have long contended that, right or wrong, pulling things out of the spiritual, personal realm and into the medical, psychiatric realm is a necessary step to mobilize resources that help people help themselves. Right or wrong, slapping a label on something gets people's attention.

Again, do I think it should be this way? No. I simply think that it is. I personally think that someone, somewhere in the military should have sat back and thought "you know, these returning soldiers might benefit from talking about their experiences. Maybe we should make it easier for them to do so".

As venus and others indicated, it is completely normal for soldiers to come home changed after deployment in a war zone. I, too, would be worried if they didn't. YET, they are told that they shouldn't and aren't changed. Again, with the "man up". "it's over now, the past is the past".

Now some soldiers, either by genetic disposition, lack of coping skills, degree of trauma, lack of trauma processing whatever.... experience profound physiological and psychological effects. Indeed, I DO think what we are dealing with here is a wounded soul.

But I can promise you that the military would have never changed anything based solely on the premise that our soldiers have wounded souls. In fact, very few soldiers likely would seek help IF the recognition had never come that PTSD is a real thing that occurs independently of how "strong" your character and "manly" they are.

Right or wrong, I do not think a label or a diagnosis is haven for the weak minded to hide in, but an opening that facilitates treatment. I do wish we could change society - maybe one day we will, but that day is not here now.

All I care about is improved outcome. Whatever it takes to get there. A comprehensive integration of all modalities of treatment - spiritual, psychological, physiological wow! that would be ideal and we should continue to strive for it.

Now, do I have a problem with people who do "take advantage" of their mental condition. The answer there is yes and no. Personally, I think those people are quite rare. Given an alternative, I think most would choose a different path. I whole-heartedly agree that some people, well, just lack self-discipline to manage themselves. But, again, I think these people are rare and most people, when the opportunity for help is there, jump at the chance to make their lives better.

IMO, PTSD is the poster child of how things can go terribly wrong when problems are not identified and labeled. I have long contended that, right or wrong, pulling things out of the spiritual, personal realm and into the medical, psychiatric realm is a necessary step to mobilize resources that help people help themselves. Right or wrong, slapping a label on something gets people's attention.

What if the label is part of the problem? What if morals and spiritual/existential/philosophical aspects end up totally ditched and are substituted with pills and "science" based methods... when these cannot deal with the moral/existential/spiritual aspect of the issue? Not addressing that part of the issue can cause quite some damage.

and are were really gonna leave morals out of a problem that involves dealing with life itself?

As venus and others indicated, it is completely normal for soldiers to come home changed after deployment in a war zone. I, too, would be worried if they didn't. YET, they are told that they shouldn't and aren't changed. Again, with the "man up". "it's over now, the past is the past".

well, slapping "disorder" label on it is indeed saying they should not change... that if they were not disordered, they would be able to deal better.

All I care about is improved outcome. Whatever it takes to get there. A comprehensive integration of all modalities of treatment - spiritual, psychological, physiological wow! that would be ideal and we should continue to strive for it.

we are not striving for it now. Purely medical model is pursued.... and outcome? Not so good at all...
Hence it needs to be criticized left and right...

and for those of us here who value professional opinion... there are thankfully professionals who already attack the current system... There isn't a consensus anymore... There are "naysers" within the community as well.

My answer: because they are not true; they mislead with their primitive explanations of things.

FWIW.

"Science" can encompass a lot more than just medications and brain imaging, IMO.

But science is bringing insights even into this realm...

There are studies though (I can't give references) that show brain changes due to psychotherapy... in fact, assuming the brain is intimately connected to thinking, then changing thinking must go along with brain changes. Learning has to result in brain changes! Otherwise, how would anything be learned (be different)?

Venus,

Okay - and I'm sorry if I missed this explanation before - but can you elaborate a bit on what you mean by morals?

I think this may have different meanings for us, but I would like to understand.

There are war zones in domestic life too...

How?

I studied social science... there are many contradicting theories. Science cannot explain human psyche....

btw, shall we ditch art too? I mean art is certainly not true, it's perception of reality is subjective and problematic...

Did Greek get it completelly wrong back than?


how?

I recently read a article and nuclear deterrent and evolutionary psychology. I still don't feel anymore enlightened (no pun intended) on the morality of using weapons of ultimate destruction to preserve peace.

Or... more onto everyday level... hypothetical example: if I have friend with benefits - how will science explain if I am wrong or right? it feels good and we have good time togethers, but what if I fall for him too much and he won't feel the same thing for me? What if I am playing with his heart? How will science stop us from ending up broken hearted and miserable?

These are just two examples. YOu can look at your life and dilemas and see science will fail you.

I would personally love if somebody scanned my brain and told me which topic I should chose for my master's thesis... or rather not. i will use primitive methods for that rather.

i am thinking each's personal moral compass. most of us come to compromise our own moral values at one point in life.... but sometimes these breaches of our own morals are much more serious (i.e. killing people is wrong... but don't sometimes ends justify means?)

You are free to form you own opinions and have your own faith or soul or purpose identity, as your yadda yaddy private song goes. It is your idea of your own medicine and you can be sciolistic for yourself.

I did say that it is possible that some people use mental illness as an excuse or an escape or even a sort of fad as you have pointed out in that group of people you describe that seem to have it all but obviously they need to have depression too.
There is a saying "Poor little rich girl" that might fit to that group.

I myself have said to psychiatrists that there is no magic pill that can change or replace the loss or what had happened to me. I described a need for grief couciling and rest as I had not had any. Well I was thought to be unreasonable for that request. I did know that I needed to go through a process of acceptance as I was exhausted and in shock.

One of the things that people do not realize about PTSD is there are varying degrees of it. We can have experiences that are traumatic and, yes, we can move on and put it in our past, even learn and grow from it. But there are experiences that for some reason, even though one wants to put it in the past and learn from it and forget, they experience intrusions of UNWANTED flashbacks that THEY CANNOT SEEM TO CONTROL. Unless one experiences this, they are ignorant by stating that it can just be pushed away as that is what the vicitm wishes to do and when the victim is unsuccessful they become depressed or angry.

I dont think that I would truely understand a flashback without having one. When I had mine I raced through my past and wanted to just attack it and address it and stop the flashbacks from occuring. I did manage to decrease them as I was so determined and I had felt that, ok, it is possible to fight it. But then I was addressing them again, and it came out without warning. And the brain is sort of frozen in that moment, you cant speak or get away, it is very confusing and upsetting. And is even more upsetting when it happens in your sleep and it is really happening in your mind and it traps you in an event, time, moment. Not a very pleasant experience. But those who have it get angry and want to find a way to stop it from happening. It has nothing to do with pretending, luxuriating, or saying it is a choice.

Yes, some can hide within their illness, I am sure that happens as often it can be a source of control. However there are those the choose to do the work and try to get through illness or live around it and become to realize it is an option. I had done that many times in my life, so I do understand that it is hard, but it is possible.

However I do not want to undermine those that do suffer, are not pretending, and are trying to do the work and need more help and even support. And most of all understanding.

Open Eyes

Are you sure? People are beginning to see how "values" can be acquired through evolution -- because they have survival value. Ways of thinking or of acting that have survival value -- survive. The process is not perfect, but obviously neither are we.

Perceptions can be studied and understood in terms that are psychologically revealing... and interesting (to me)!

My definition of 'science' is "the study of how things work". It is not a set of rules and regulations -- though some seem to think it is. All kinds of things can be studied -- art, us.

so how you explain let's say the state nuclear weapons in face of survival? if we know M.A.D. still more or less applies, why purchase more nukes if you cannot use them anyways?

And how does valuing good food (as in expensive with not so much real nutritional value...) or steamy sex contribute to survival? How can my love for low budget travelling be explained scientifically (besides me and my fellow lonely-planet trippers have some sort of disorder that makes us cruise planet manically, sleep a little, sleep on dock of ferries and in crummy hostels, blister around feet running around metropoles...)?

many things in life are irrational. Each morning i thank Gods for those.

I said "The process is not perfect". It is evolution, not (obviously) divine. At least it gives us scope to work on it ourselves!

Yes, learning does result in brain changes and even increasing brain abilities, all we have to do is study children with pasts that are both good and bad. But we cannot discount the fact that it can cause disabilities as well, very important.

If someone is having trouble in college and doesn't make the grade, oh no, my parents will be so angry, what has been learned? What has been learned is that for that person to feel good or bad, it is up to the parents, not the child. And that can lend itself to a person having trouble because they feel that in order for them to feel good they must wait for approval by others, friends, co-workers, teachers, bosses, and still the parent.

Venus, what you are describing about your travels and cheezy hotels and all the other things you mention. What if that was taught to be the "IN, ACCEPTED, COOL WAY TO TRAVEL AND LEARN?" The way you have describe it was more of a tramatic or even loathsome way to travel and learn and see the world around you. What is your own PERCEPTION of this experience?
I think that a better way of looking at it is that you were incredibly resourseful and you did do it, dam girl, good for you. Those others that have depression as a fad, I don't think they could do that do you? You are the better, but for some reason, you do not see that. So in effect you feel deprived in your learning, that should not be the case. What you did was venture and learn, you did not deprive yourself, your only percieving that, unknowingly, learned behavior. You have an anger for this, should not be there, you should be rewarding yourself, not with anger but with the fact that you did it, you were resourseful.

And I think that as Paulos addresses his own life and experiences he doesn't quite address this, however it is addressed, just not exactly pointed out by him. His focus was more on how he proceeded in life and was kept from using the Mental institution for an escape. But what pre-empted that escape, what was the psychie there?

In the end he talked about his father appologizing to him and feeling true regret. He was lucky to be validated not only by finally pursueing his own dream, but by his fathers recognition of error. A lifetime for this to occur, but he was lucky, others live out their lives and do not have that happen.

I understood what Paulos was saying about not using the Mental institutions for and excuse to avoid life. But as the brain changes with knowlege, hello, it starts very young.

When Venus mentions that group that felt depression was something that was cool, a fad, acceptable excuse to refrain from actively persuing life. Perhaps that was learned too. Maybe by parents, maybe by others, society. If one is so rich, life is just a vacation and viewing pain in others is the depression of having to see it. Or obviously the depression is addressing the fact that these people have enough comforts that there is no need to work at growth, so instead of feeling guilty, lets just say we are too depressed to be productive, we never really learned how to do that anyway.

I cannot discount the fact that a young man who engages in war goes through and extreme change of heightened awareness and experiencing the real consequences of actually participating in battle. No longer is it in a movie or just a book with pictures, it is real and it is about being pursued, someone is going to take your life, you have to take another life in order to either survive or win a battle. The brain learns something in that process and it has proven to be a life long struggle to adjust to that experience.

And patchyderm is right, this can happen in a domestic situation as well.
And there too, it can lend to a life long struggle to adjust to that as well.

Open Eyes

Venus the things that you talk about and even that day when you found a reason to feel good to be alive. You mentioned a near miss of tragedy but because it didn't happen you have a new lease to learn more and live more. By viewing it that way you were allowing yourself be to be in control of your own feelings and in doing that you were allowing yourself to be resourseful.

As I read your opinions and even strong views that may even be a type of know it all approach is that you have not yet recognized your own anger. You are fighting yourself by what you have learned. Your fight is that you have been resourseful and yet you cannot seem to appreciate that because others around you have chosen to be gifted of their lessons in life or even the way they do travel and learn, within a given comfort. So in a way you do loath them. And many other countries loath Americans for this reason too. As Americans do have more freedoms to explore and feel a comfort that other societies are not allowed to do. And other societies resent this comfort and claim Americans are pushy and spoiled and do not really understand other cultures yada yadaa yadaa.

But it is unfair to access the American people as a whole in this opinion. Because not all Americans have this luxurious lifestyle. But Americans do have more freedoms and they do fight for that and that is one thing that they do want for other countries, but it is misunderstood. It is misunderstood because of what has been learned by the citizens of other countries. It is formed acceptance, a brain has learned certain behaviors or guidelines. So, I go back to the child and the value of what is taught.
And I am not even talking about religion. But it can limit perception.

I read a post by a young girl that was being raped and vicitimized and when she tried to tell her parents, she was not acknowledged and was told to just pray for answers. She knew this didn't work, didn't change the abuse, and she had genuine concerns. I have to say, I really felt bad for her, she did know the difference, but she was trapped. And if she does break free somehow, she will no doubt spend the rest of her life recovering from this. Her very life was being controled and she was asking for help.

And this is the sick society that you speak of and to be well adjusted is no measure. And that is a good quote because it does encompus the fact that the illness is learned and is often accepted. So to be able to function within that is really no measure of sanity. As pachyderm mentions, who is in charge? Apparently no one can come up with a good answer for that, but I have talked about how it could change. But, I am not sure how long that will take, or if it could happen. Only that it is possible.

I am known by others for being resourseful. I never accepted a guideline, "Oh, you can never have that, that is only for the rich". I hated when someone said that, it actually made me more resourseful and I did prove them wrong. I then became someone to listen to and watch and even others emulated me. And I did teach it, especially to my daughter, and she is a very independant resourseful person and doesn't have a lot of tolerance for those who slack and complain and accomplish nothing. And she is highly esteemed and I am told I did such a good job. Even in a Yale study that entailed to study of dislexia and how those who have it grow and adjust, my daughter was beyond the others. They were puzzeled by this. But what they were really seeing is that others were allowed to be limited, learned to be limited. My approach with my daughter was to work around it and develope new ways to compensate and proceed. It really worked and she does it really well. And in college others would ask her how she learned to study, they couldn't do it, and she showed them how I taught her how to study. She also taught a young woman who was on a scholarship because of her talent for basketball. She had lost it and had lost her way. She even was depressed and talked about giving up on life.

Well, my daughter did not allow for that at all. She worked on this girl until this girl turned around. She would not give up on her, she made her learn how to get on with it and appreciate herself. And I have watched her do this with others. I am very proud of her. Where ever she goes, she becomes infectious with her resoursefulness and will for it.

No, she didn't graduate the top of her class. But she did learn how to be resourseful and seek knowledge in spite of her disability. So there you go, proof, it can work.

One of the things I do see in you Venus is resousefulness. You must embrace it and keep going.
You can do it, you don't need to feel angy about it. And it is not really about being a know it all. It is more about proceeding and not giving into internal conflict about being resourseful, but to embace it as a quality that can allow you to go and learn. It is a luxury that others with luxury given will not understand, it will separate you, IF YOU LET IT.

Open Eyes