[Ygrec23]

In the previous social sensitivity thread I was trying to find out whether any or all mental afflictions in some manner interfered with or prevented the perception of social rules. I don't know whether we got to a clear answer on that. So I thought about it and want to present a variation on the former question that's really an entirely new question. It's this:

Mental illness, in whatever shape or form, is usually painful and distracting. Is it then possible to say that the pain and distraction of mental illness simply make complying with social rules less of a priority than they may be for so-called "normal" people? That the needs imposed by mental illness frequently take priority over dotting the social i's and crossing the social t's?

I certainly know this is true in my case. And has resulted in my living as a marginal, peripheral, semi-outcast on the fringe of any group to which I would otherwise belong. Am I generalizing too much from my own situation?

What do YOU think?

To what social rules do you refer? The manners, etiquette or conventions Judith Martin, Miss Manners talks about: http://www.neh.gov/news/humanities/2.../civility.html

Or, perhaps the everyday manners of Emily Post: http://www.emilypost.com/everyday-manners

How about social conventions:

In sociology a social rule refers to any social convention commonly adhered to in a society. These rules are not written in law or otherwise formalized. In social constructionism there is a great focus on social rules. It is argued that these rules are socially constructed, that these rules act upon every member of a society, but at the same time, are re-produced by the individuals.
Sociologists representing symbolic interactionism argue that social rules are created through the interaction between the members of a society. The focus on active interaction highlights the fluid, shifting character of social rules. These are specific to the social context, a context that varies through time and place. That means a social rule changes over time within the same society. What was acceptable in the past may no longer be the case. Similarly, rules differ across space: what is acceptable in one society may not be so in another.
Social rules reflect what is acceptable or normal behaviour in any situation. Michel Foucault's concept of discourse is closely related to social rules as it offers a possible explanation how these rules are shaped and change. It is the social rules that tell people what is normal behaviour for any specific category. Thus, social rules tell a woman how to behave in a womanly manner, and a man, how to be manly. Other such rules are as follows:

• strangers being introduced shake hands, as in Western societies, but
  • bow toward each other, in Korea, Japan and China
  • do not bow at each other, in the Jewish tradition
  • in the US, eye contact, a nod of the head toward each other, and a smile, with no bowing; the palm of the hand faces sideways, neither upward nor downward, in a business handshake.
  • present business cards to each other, in business meetings
• click heels together, in past eras of Western history
• a woman's curtsey, in some societies
• in the Mideast, never displaying the sole of the foot toward another, as this would be seen as a grave insult.
• In many schools, though seats for students are not assigned they are still "claimed" by certain students, and sitting in someone else's seat is considered an insult

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_%28norm%29

ScienceDaily (July 19, 2005) — Some of us can hold our tongues better than others but even the best of us will blurt out the truth when we're tired, stressed or distracted, according to a new research report.

"The dinner party guest who puts his foot in his mouth could lack a crucial mental ability that stops the rest of us from blurting out our true feelings," according to a report in the July issue of Psychological Science, a journal of the American Psychological Society.

But while most people can usually avoid telling painful truths by inhibiting themselves, the results of experiments conducted by University of New South Wales psychological researcher Bill von Hippel suggest that we should be extra wary of making social blunders when we are under strain or fatigued. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0719002131.htm

Social blunders do not seem to be limited to those with an illness. I generally do not have trouble following the social conventions I am aware of.

[unaluna]

Maybe someday in the future people will look back on these times and say, how could they have NOT have realized that mental illness was influenced (if not caused) by the horrible ways they treated their fellow humans? And since the "ways we treat our fellow humans" are what make up social rules, really anyone who steps outside them is by definition mentally ill. I was reading about Edith Wharton last night, that was kind of her premise, not that she advocated it, she just pointed it out.

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by TheByzantine

Social blunders do not seem to be limited to those with an illness. I generally do not have trouble following the social conventions I am aware of.

Of course not. The vast majority of "social blunders" must be committed by perfectly normal people who are simply ignorant of a particular rule or rules. I assume that the normal but ignorant far outnumber the mentally ill, and I have no idea into which category you yourself may fall.

I would think, though, that for some people anxiety, panic, depression or a number of other things may interfere with their capacity to interact with other, normal people in the manner those other, normal people consider normal.

Take care.

[Open Eyes]

Thanks for posting this Byz. I find this piece very interesting and informative.

And the fact that PC is actually a site that is available pretty much globally can present some challenges, especially when one considers this infomation. And I can definitely relate to that feeling of efforts to repel the influence of American style social structures and guidelines and even certain freedoms of expressions that other countries have a difficult time accepting and may even consider it somewhat offensive.

Unfortunately, the educational system provided in America today, even the family atmosphere does not really teach edicate in relating to other countries and the customs that are in place. And it is interesting to see how the younger generation is dealing with this and some kind of new form of communication is developing. And I can see that there is often some confusion with this because this younger crowd is connecting in ways that attempt to push aside the cultural guidelines. There is a genuine curiosity that is somewhat irresistible in this case, almost like, I stold a cookie when you weren't looking mentality. And I can also see there is an uncomfortable feeling about that in the different leaderships within these different countries, perhaps a fear of some kind real concern about different cultural rules being slowly dismantled, thus a contol within that culture coming into a possible threat.

And I also think that as this progresses there is confusion amongst the younger group that has a broader world wide concern that really was not as exposed or accessable in other times.

And one of my concerns is when I hear statements like "YOU AMERICANS...... AND THEN AN IMPLICATION OF IGNORANCE OR DISRESPECT" I find it very unsettling because that edicate really isn't being taught in either at home surroundings or schools. So in many ways these actions or social interactions that are presented are unfairly being judged, simply by a lack of being educated about how to interact respectfully. So basically someone can be critisized for something that may not truely be intended as any kind of purposeful critisizm.

The interesting thing about this is that if that cookie stealing gets to the point that has the capacity to just serve genuine harmless curiosity, there can be a genuine beginning of an overall connection that transcends beyond the cultural devide to just a mere human connection, though playful and curious it may be.

And as far as the challenges of different disorders as well coming into play, that also can bring a global realization that these disorders or personal human challenges are not simply within one culture but within all cultures. Abuse is abuse no matter where one lives. However, certain abuses can be accepted within a culture. And in that cookie jar, a new awareness can be taking place and become recognized in new ways and can pose a threat to a culture. These are interesting times indeed.

Very interesting Byz.

Open Eyes

"Normal" essentially is a meaningless term because of our uniqueness. I see no reason to automatically subordinate the behavior of an ill person to one others may consider more mainstream. I asked about what social skills you are talking about because there are some social graces that most accept.

[gma45]

Will someone please explain to me what normal is?

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by gma45

Will someone please explain to me what normal is?

anybody who agrees with me!
sign me, cynical

[Open Eyes]

Originally Posted by gma45

Will someone please explain to me what normal is?

I don't think there really is such a thing as normal to be honest.
It is basically something that has nothing to do with a living breathing human being.

Open Eyes

[madisgram]

Mental illness, in whatever shape or form, is usually painful and distracting. Is it then possible to say that the pain and distraction of mental illness simply make complying with social rules less of a priority than they may be for so-called "normal" people? That the needs imposed by mental illness frequently take priority over dotting the social i's and crossing the social t's?

i guess it's a symantic thing but for me, my mental illness-bipolar-certainly got in my way with interpersonal social skills tho i didn't know it during the time before i was dx'ed. therapy has enabled me improve that and i'm sure my meds too. i'm not sure if my lacking in social skills tho was caused just by being bipolar/MI. i lacked some knowledge of developing coping skills in social situations that harmed me. this was imho a result of environmental roots.
as for dotting the i's if anything i was too perfectionistic re this aspect. i believe it is from a tad of OCD and a perfectionistic father who expected me to be perfect too.
so am i contradicting myself here, ygrec?

[Ygrec23]

Because, to be honest, I have been looking for that every since I first came here. And Please dont throw you hands up in the air. I honestly need an answer of how I can communicate through something like when other people are upset with eachother. So far everything I look at has more cons then pros. And I don't want to be trapped like this anymore. Open Eyes

No, Open Eyes, I won't throw my hands up in the air. And to the best of my ability you'll get an answer. And no I won't get mad at you. Let's see if we can get you untrapped.

You can communicate through something like this by (1) never falling to the level of the two or more people who are yelling at each other; (2) always maintaining a reasonable tone of language; (3) repetitively pointing out to the participants that the way they're conducting themselves is not appropriate; (4) not being discouraged at initially being ignored; (5) continuing to try to figure out new and different ways of saying "this is silly," "you're wasting your time" and "what's this REALLY about?" and (6) by just never giving up. Take care.

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by madisgram

i guess it's a symantic thing but for me, my mental illness-bipolar-certainly got in my way with interpersonal social skills tho i didn't know it during the time before i was dx'ed. therapy has enabled me improve that and i'm sure my meds too. i'm not sure if my lacking in social skills tho was caused just by being bipolar/MI. i lacked some knowledge of developing coping skills in social situations that harmed me. this was imho a result of environmental roots. as for dotting the i's if anything i was too perfectionistic re this aspect. i believe it is from a tad of OCD and a perfectionistic father who expected me to be perfect too. so am i contradicting myself here, ygrec?

Well, madisgram, if anyone hasn't figured this out by now I'd be a little surprised, but the background for all these question threads I start is myself and my own problems, and answers to questions that relate to those problems. These are my ways of asking for a hug, of expanding my understanding, of overcoming my mental troubles bit by bit through pieces of the puzzle that fall together.

My problems very much got in the way of my both seeing social rules and conforming to those I could see. My panic and anxiety were so overwhelming at times that everything else simply had to give way before them. Had to. And my dissociation, particularly when other people were around, made it very hard for me to observe others and understand from them correct tones of voice, body movements, conversational subjects, turn-taking, and even basic comprehension of what they said (I might have to ask many times over for them to repeat themselves until they gave up in disgust.)

I do think that mental afflictions of different kinds, whether your bipolar or my whatever, interfere with functioning as a "normal" member of society. And as I think is probably true for most everyone else, "normal" for me simply means most other people without highly distinguishing characteristics, neither at the high end nor the low end of any scale on any subject. They're most of the other people I (and possibly you) run up against in life. Whether in school, play or work or wherever. The word "normal" is neither a scientific term nor an opprobrious term. It's just Plain English. And everyone has a reasonable idea of what it means. Everyone for whom English was their first language, of course. Take care!

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by gma45

Will someone please explain to me what normal is?

Normal is most people. Normal are people who aren't very rich or very poor. With a decent education but not a Ph.D. People who obey the law. People who come somewhere between brilliant and dumb. People who do what most other people do. Normal people were most of the people in your class in grade school. Normal people don't come in very high or very low on any scale that's used to evaluate people. Normal people can live in very nice houses or decent houses, but they won't live in hovels or mansions. Most normal people get married and have families, but many normal people don't do those things. Normal people frequently enjoy pizza or hamburgers and turkey on Thanksgiving.

You can be part normal and part something else. You can be normal in every single thing you do and say and own and think with the one exception of your depression, which really gets you down. Or you can be half-and-half normal and something else, like if you have bad BP.

Normal is a word, an adjective, that describes a noun or a phrase. I myself am normal in what I eat, drink, wear, watch on TV, the house I live in, the car I drive around in, and in what I buy for my wife on her birthday. I'm not normal in the books I read or the music I listen to, not because I don't want to be normal, not because I think I'd like to be different from other people, but because things just worked out that way.

I'm not at all normal with regard to a number of the processes going on in my mind, though I'm definitely getting more and more normal in that sense through working with T. I would very much like to be entirely normal. But I don't believe I'll ever have that choice. Take care!