The evolutionary advantages of stigma

Here is a good example of what I am talking about;

My daughter has "dislexia" and when I was raising her I was lucky because they were starting a long term study of this disorder at Yale University. And they had been running this study long enough so that when I took my daughter to be tested, they could tell me her "problem areas" with how she learns and remembers information.
And one of her problem areas is that she cannot take in too many things at once, she will simply not absorb the "list of things" in her brain and therefore, she will swear that I never told her things that I clearly remember telling her. I could give her 5 things to do, 5 chores and she will only remember 2 or 3 and no more. And I did have this problem with her alot, and when I realized that she simply didn't process the volume in her brain like I can, I felt awful about that.

Well, I made sure that while she was growing up and going to school that she had help with this, and her teachers were aware of this and made sure she had more time for learning and tests and that she wasn't punished for something she truely could not help. It was not easy for me, but I was lucky because I had the proof from the Yale study to help me. And other children often "stigmatized her and enacted the very mechanism that is being discussed here". I had to keep up with that too, and the way I did that was I added in her taking up horseback riding, it just happened to be something that she loved doing. Even in that I had to work with different trainers to make sure they didn't treat her badly for how she had to learn.

The one thing though that people who have "dislexia" have is "drive and determination" even though they become aware that they do struggle and are not going to truely be that "valdictorian" role model. They also can get very frustrated with themselves, but with the right guidance, they can still make some substancial gains and they all do have talents.

College for my daughter was not as hard because College gives more freedom and time and people with dislexia find that atmosphere more inviting. And often they even like that atmosphere because they do like to learn, they are not dumb people, they just need more time to learn.

Where my daughter really struggled was in her long term relationship. Unfortunately her boyfriend, and even some friends never understood her inability to remember long lists of things. So whenever they began to say, I want to do this and this and remember this and this. She only would remember this and this and not the rest. She was constantly punished for this and "stigmatized" as being selfish and lazy.

Last week she learned that Yale finally completed their study and put out a documentary and it was being aired on HBO. She watched it and got to see how others like her struggled the same way she struggles and yet they are in all walks of life and many have good jobs and are important and respected. However they all talked about how they were "stigmatized" and often "left out" and constantly struggled with feeling they were "less than" somehow.

She called me and she was sobbing because she was not alone anymore and she also realized that her challenge of being dislexic created difficulty in her relationship as well. And no matter how many times she had tried to explain her challenge, her long time boyfriend didn't get it and kept picking on her and pushing too many long lists of things at her. In effect, my daughter was abused for something she could not help.
My daughter is very smart and is also very gifted at training horses and other animals. She is also very good with people and even organizing and she does well at her job too. And because I made it a point to take time to help her and be there for her for so many years, because someone began to recognize her problem and a study took place to learn about it, that was there so I could understand it and help her, she is flourishing and contributing.

And ofcourse, we all have come to know that Einstein struggled with dislexia, he was stigmatized too, but he ended up making significant contributions inspite of it.

We also stigmatize "alcoholism" as well, but we are slowly learning that many alcoholics struggle with ADHD or other problems where they don't know how to relax, and slow down or even have learning disabilities. But alcoholics are stigmatized as "toxic people" and that we must steer clear of them. If we take time to finally understand "why" people go in this distructive direction and help them prevent it, we may finally resolve this problem that plagues so many.

So, my point of view is that while this "mechanism" may be there, that doesn't mean we have to think that it "helps" or actually works to achieve "survival of the fittest".

Open Eyes

I am not an evolutionary psychologist -- just a person doing some thinking. So I do not know of empirical research, though there may be some. Wonder how one would go about doing such research? I think ideas such as these have value, in that they suggest interpretations of facts (connecting the dots) that may help understanding, may suggest hypotheses that could be tested.

The whole issue is normal people never accepted me, they were the ones doing most of the bullying....because I was the one who was different from them. So its not simply I've had bad experiances so I am just worried I wouldn't get along well with those who strive for what society deems as normal...its that I come off as freak or mental to those people so they have an issue with me. My life goal is certainly not to fit in with normal people...I prefer people who are a bit more open minded and don't fit in with that either since they are actually somewhat approachable and less judgmental.

I am not going to thrive better than the group, and I am not going to accomplish anything great so the normal people can be like 'oh see that person wasn't so bad look what they accomplished.' If society wants me to overcome it so much maybe it shouldn't have helped beat me down...with the pseudo survival of the fittest process that seems to go on. I suppose that is why I have kind of strong emotions about this whole thing...I have been directly effected by the behavior of ostracizing or picking on someone who's different or maybe has some issues because they don't fit in. Its the same thing that would happen if I somehow got a typical job I wouldn't quite fit in with the group and I'd hear about it. I know its not my fault, but even so what really is there to 'overcome' I just want a little bit of stability in my life so I can at least figure out a way to get by and maybe enjoy some of the time....away from mainstream society of course.

".I prefer people who are a bit more open minded and don't fit in with that either since they are actually somewhat approachable and less judgmental". quote Hellion

Yes, me too Hellion, that is how I have lived my life tbh. And there "are" people out there that are open minded and nice. It takes time to find them, but they are there. And you don't have to think that you need to be someone who will be significantly adding to humanity if you learn how to thrive inspite of your past and how you are challenged with PTSD. If you learn to thrive and be happy with who you are at somepoint and find a way to be fulfilled, that would be fine too.

Open Eyes

This is somewhat of a complicated case. There are ethical issues involved with a true experiment in this case, as we can't assign participants to a condition that forces them to experience having a stigmatized label. Similarly, we can't run a true experiment on the effects of smoking because we can't randomly assign participants to a "smoking condition". Therefore, we'll have to rely on correlational studies or quasi-experiments.

But first we'll have to operationalize the independent variable, "stigma", and the dependent variable, "survival". In other words, how would we objectively determine if someone has a "stigmatized label" and if they're being ostracized because of this label? And how do we determine who is the best "survivor"?

For a correlational study, we can either naturally observe a group of people who have been ostracized because of some stigma attached to them and compare them to a group of people who have not been ostracized. However, this can be time consuming, and it would be difficult to record and report data. Alternatively, we can spam surveys, using a number of questionnaires to assess the participant's degree of social exclusion and their "survival skills". This would be easiest. Unfortunately, though, correlational designs can't determine cause.

For a quasi-experiment, we can collect a number of participants who have recently been ostracized for one reason or another, and then periodically assess their "survival skills". And we would compare them to a group of participants who have not been ostracized.

Indeed, ideas do have value. And the natural continuation in the pursuit of knowledge is confirmation.

A brief search of the terms "ostracize", "stigma", "strength", "survival", "evolution", and "social exclusion" yielded no results. I also searched "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". I did stumble upon an article, though it had nothing to do with social exclusion.

So far Micheal, the empirical studies are serparated, I don't think there is one "large inclusive" study. We are looking at the fragments at this point, I don't think we are truely at a point yet where we know enough tbh. We are still learning about the human brain and as we get more science behind us, I think all the pieces will come together so we can have the empirical information you are talking about.

I agree with pachyderm, eventually we will be able to "connect the dots" and reach that level of understanding. We are just not there yet.

Open Eyes

I don't quite follow your meaning. "Empirical research" is merely research based on measured observations. We have more empirical research than I could read given three lifetimes.

LOL Michael, you are sooo funny to me sometimes. You ask a question and then you take a funny turn and answer your own question. You make me chuckle sometimes.

I don't... What?

Oh, I don't mean this in a "mean spirited way" Michael, sometimes you just make me chuckle, it's a good chuckle though. It just has to do with the different ways we think and somehow you are the only one that makes me chuckle like this.

Yes we have a whole lot of empirical research out there, I doubt I could get in all the reading either. But what you were looking for is not out there yet, I understood that the first time.

I didn't interpret it as mean spirited. I just don't... know what you're talking about.

It doesn't matter.

I'm going to... Go over there.

There is a Journal of Social, Evolutionary and Cultural Psychology. Here is an article from it on Family Stigma, Sexual Selection and the Evolutionary Origins of Severe Depression's Psysiological Consequences. See: http://shell.newpaltz.edu/jsec/artic...allerproof.pdf

I am sure there are a lot of studies out there that touch on the subject of stigma and evolution but, perhaps, none directly when it comes to finding advanages of it. I am not so certain - in fact, I sincerely doubt - that there are any advantages to being socially stigmatized. I mean, let's get real here!

Another study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11316010) suggests that human beings possess cognitive adaptations designed to cause them to avoid poor social exchange partners, join cooperative groups (for purposes of between-group competition and exploitation), and avoid contact with those who are differentially likely to carry communicable pathogens.

I am sure there are other studies that would be of interest to readers of this thread.

Ok, unhappyguy, this is long and somewhat depressing. Getting further into it where it discusses how the social ecomonics plays into the selection process is interesting. However just because certain social groups are thought to be more beneficial in breeding, that doesn't mean these groups will not suffer the result of "troubled or challenged offspring". In fact one of the reasons research is often funded and exisits is when these successful social groups have troubled offspring and they want to find out why and how to help their child.

I also question how hormones of growing teens can produce challenges with depression and once these hormonal levels come into a balance, the depression that is challenging many of our teens begins to subside and they end up going on to become more productive.

I didn't read the whole thing but I didn't see much discussion on learning disabilities either, which if addressed properly can reduce depression in those that struggle and "think" they are somehow unworthy. For example I have a nephew who struggled in school because of a learning disability. Once he gained skills to help him work around this he gained and all the "self distructive" thoughts that revolved around his depression discipated and he changed. He is now very happy and successful, even in his relationship.

I am not "disagreeing with the entire article here" it is clear they have been doing a lot of research. I am just not so sure they have all the pieces of the puzzle "yet" in this research.

As far as depression is concerned, I think that while some of it is genetic, I think that much of it can come from how children are nurtured improperly as well. I have worked with children that have "low interest levels" and I have seen them improve with the right kind of encouragement and direction.

And lets not forget that what we may see outwardly as someone who has the look of good physical conformation and well being, can actually be someone who can carry some very undesirable charectoristics. I have seen this in horses as well.

I am actually very interested and encouraged by some ideas of changing how we educate our children and design programs or education around a childs talents verses just pushing all children into the same rote style education where they are graded and judged and tested as is done now.

Just my thoughts

Open Eyes

The articles were just examples of research that has been conducted that involve the subject of stigma. This thread discusses whether stigma has any evolutionary advantages for those who have been stigmatized. The articles were not meant to be discussed. There had been a claim in this threat that there was no research on the subject. As I pointed out in my post, there is an entire journal dedicated to evolutionary (as well as social and cultural) psychology and information from an article published in it specifically discussed the topic of stigma. That was the point that was being made. I don't understand why all these other tangents are being discussed. Like I have said previously, stigma is one of the worst things that can happen to someone. I cannot see any evolutionary benefit to it, especially from the victim's standpoint. It is a very painful experience that does deep emotional harm. Someone who has been stigmatized will have difficulty finding a mate. I will leave any further discussion to the experts, of which I am not one.

My intent was to ruminate on the "advantages" to the species, not to the individual. "Automatic" processes such as I think are involved in stigmatizing have the advantage that they require no thinking, since individuals and thinking are unreliable taken in the light that such mechanisms have to survive over eons of time.

There is, for the individual, the potential advantage that, if one survives the stresses of being stigmatized, one may learn to use thinking to get a greater grasp of why things such as this happen. That could be an advantage to the species too, eventually. But it is more difficult and less reliable than processes which require no thinking.

(I did not choose the icon for this thread by accident.)

Yes, the advantages of thinking about why you are stigmatized. The feelings of anger. The thoughts of suicide. The suffering of PTSD because of what others have done to you.

I guess you have not gotten to the point of wondering WHY those people did as they did. As I say, it hurts to think, sometimes. It has its eventual possible rewards too, I claim.

All I did was finally stick up for myself by objecting to being treated badly. Is there something wrong with sticking up for yourself against abuse that has been going on for months? I live in a state where one can be terminated at work at any time for no reason. Instead, I was harassed for months. I guess their view is that they were doing me a favor as being fired would look bad on my resume; I would have preferred that they meet with me privately to discuss that things were not working out. I could not afford to quit and I needed to stay longer on the job for the sake of my resume.

One boss drove me to a panic attack and then claimed I was violent. I never threatened anyone; I had a panic attack. Having a panic attack is not cause for termination and giving bad references. The abuse was so bad and so continuous that I also developed PTSD. Now, no one will hire me and I have to live like a pauper on SSDI.

Even strangers treat me badly. Lately, I don't want to leave my apartment. I experience rage on a daily basis from my PTSD. Many of the basics of life like friendship and love are things that are beyond my capability even after years of therapy. The constant need to put down or ignore my instinctual reaction to things leads to exhaustion and depression. After a while, I just get tired of being me. And, I have to hide my true self in all social situations. Consequently, there is no feeling of joy or of making true friends with anyone.

Thinking also leads to over-intellectualizing - something that I am often guilty of when dealing with my problems. Thinking is not a cure for stigmatization.

"There is, for the individual, the potential advantage that, if one survives the stresses of being stigmatized, one may learn to use thinking to get a greater grasp of why things such as this happen. That could be an advantage to the species too, eventually"

I feel we "have" recognized this and it "does" require more "thinking" to allow one's self to make a decision to "thrive" inspite of being the "victim of stigmatizing".

If I think of myself, that is very much what I did. I didn't really get a chance to do anything else but that in my life. I had to face it right away tbh and I certainly didn't have the where with all to understand it either.

After my therapist heard my history, he told me that young children are often asked to deal with a lot of "brutality" and it is hard on children. A lot of children can have "tramatic" childhoods and face things that they are not prepared for.
And for a really long time, no one really did the "thinking" for that. It was just easier to say things like "well, it builds charector" and "that is just what children do" or even, "well he is a boy and you know, they are over active and always hard to control and take much more "dicipline"" or "children are to be seen and not heard".

I thought that I managed to "survive" and as I grew older I did continue to wonder about it, because it really never ends. But I always thought that I managed to get past it somehow. It truely never occured to me that it would all come back to me in this thing called PTSD that has taken place in my brain.

The whole time I was growing up and dealing with that bus every single day, I could not understand how it was just "ignored". Never once did that busdriver turn around and stop it, and it got really bad. And never in my wildest dreams did I ever imagine myself spending so much time in a place like this "thinking" and "learning" like I am now. How I look at myself in such a different way, how I react sometimes in ways others do not "understand" and even in "mental illness" there is stigmatizing. But I have no choice but to try to connect the dots every time I "don't quite react" properly somehow.

Yesterday I did go off on a tangent. I laughed and I didn't know how to explain it really. But it sure felt good to laugh. So I decided to really "think" about why that happened.

Well, one of the things I developed was a kind of seperate self. I think most people do that without realizing it. But my seperate self was a part of me that was allowed to just "think and learn" and "try to find ways to deal with my emotions that come up from experiencing things that I just don't understand".
This is not a multiple personality thing, but it does border that. Somehow along the way this "think part of me" did devolope a "sense of humor". And I learned to laugh at myself and learned to laugh at certain human behaviors. Some our best comedians are people who really develope this part of themselves and while we see them as funny, often they have led some very troubled lives.

Somehow yesterday, I was just so deep in thought and I often get to "overthinking" because I have a lot of emotional challenges. But before I dive into this emotional battle, and efforts to find ways to understand it and control it, I begin with thoughts a lot like Michael, that, lets cut to the chase and get to the answer (and yes there is a mountain of research but it is not truely cutting to the chase). And it just made me laugh, and that happens so rarely to me now. To be able to "laugh at self" that way is such a treasure, so kind and therapudic to the brain. Laughter is such good medicine.

It was a reminder of that part of me that I used to tap onto alot, my sense of humor. Somehow along the way of misery, I learned to "have humor" and I always made my own greeting cards. Because I always studied people I could spend time with this knowingness of them and create these cartoons about them.
These cartoons always touched them in a special way because while they touched on how that person was "unique" it showed them "fun" and "laughter too". And there is no better present one can buy that can replace that.

Since I developed PTSD, that part of me rarely comes forward. In fact, it has only happened to me about 4 times since I joined PC. Once in a chat with hippiebea and three times with Michael. I am not really laughing at others, I am laughing at myself. Except with Hippie, that night was wonderful, we all laughed, in fact I laughed so hard I ached the next day.

This post may seen to be going off on a tangent too, away from pachyderms direction. However, perhaps we can also remember that "stigmatizim" is also used for humor as well. It is a "potential advantage" to thinking that we often forget about.

Open Eyes

Unhappyguy, ((((hugs)))), yes, I hear you and what you are discribing is the embodiment of PTSD and it truely brings on a great deal of anger and frustration. And you are right, because other people don't understand it, the way your boss reacted is often the norm. And it can evolve into a psycological mindset that you are experiencing now. I walk that line myself every single day.

In fact, yesterday I struggled so much that I got half way to my T session and I could not remember if I had turned off the heater that I use to help me relax while I come to PC and work on getting my mind to slow down and learn, and collect my thoughts. I forget, I lose track of time sometimes, and that too is a symptom of PTSD.

So, I ended up turning around coming home and doing my session on the phone. My T reminded me that people who struggle with PTSD have to work at it every day. And "other people" who do not have it, do not understand how much it is a constant challenge. I know what you are talking about unhappyguy, I try so hard to find ways to control it, and other people just don't understand it. I had a really "challenging" weekend helping my daughter move and I was in constant close and confined car with them and it was so hard. My husband often talks over me, and no matter how many times I have tried to explain how hard I have to work at my PTSD, he doesn't get it and he pushes me to that point that you are discribing, I break and spin and I can get "mean".

Oh, if only, if only people could understand why that happens to me, if they just could back off and give me some space and not be so hard on me for something I cannot help. And "yes" unhappyguy, that is what I do, I get frustrated with myself, I self blame and I turn the anger on myself and if I am not very careful, it can get dangerous and yes, I have thought of suicide as well. In fact, it was really bad last year, really bad and dangerous. I tried to talk about it, and no one believed me, not until I told my T.

And pachyderm is right on, the thinking is "painful" and a lot of work and very "lonely" too. And even in a group of people that are challenged too, it can be very lonely and hard sometimes. I have surely had my "bad moments" and was "surely misunderstood" as well, and I had to find my way through that too and somehow give myself permission to "keep trying" anyway.

I talked about that with my T yesterday as well. I told him that one of the biggest challenges is that sometimes thoughts just come out from the bowels of my mind and it totally surprises me. And sometimes the only way I can deal with it is after it happens to me. It can be very embarassing as well. And often someone will ask me, what does this and that have to do with the "topic"? Sigh......just a reminder of all the dots I have been connecting that only "I" can understand. And that ever looming feeling of "maybe I should just isolate because this is just so hard and no one seems to understand it and I get hurt alot".

Ohhhh, pachyderm, you are so right about the "pain of thinking". However I am slowly seeing the gains, but I am surely not free from the battle of it. I remember when I joined PC, there was such a big part of me that just wanted to know "why" I was so misunderstood. It has been so complex, and there is a name for it too, "complex PTSD". Some of my "dots" are unique, but some of them are "not" and I am sure learning alot about "victm mentality", it is painful thinking, but I do learn alot, and I do my best to help others with what I learn. So, thinking truely "can" not only help "self" but others as well there truely is a lot of "potential" to it.

Open Eyes

Sadly, my thinking process is off target. Always has been. As are my instinctive reactions. Thinking is a no-win situation for me.

Me either.

Oh, no, please don't give into that unhappyguy. And I know that can be hard. But I have come to know you as a really intelligent man. I have read some of your posts and have been enlightened in a good way. And in seeing that about you, I know you have a great capacity to learn, you are "intelligent". The problem is that the PTSD has convinced you and is weighing you down. I get that way myself. And even though you feel like you live in "bad conditions" you do have enough roof and means and a computer so that you can focus your time on learning. You "can" choose to see the glass half full, and I know that can be hard, I often have to really push myself to the mindset. And that too is a daily battle that I can be very alone with as well.

I also wanted to add something I noticed about that link you posted.
There was a lot of talk about "depression" in the beginning of it, and it is very hard for me to get into depth of that area. I do struggle with it, but I push hard not to "fixate" on it.

I do want to say that in what I read, while they do discuss depression and they talk about social economic trends towards producing better offspring that can "thrive" better, or so they say, they are missing something important in all that talk.

We are learning now that a "fetus" learns a lot before it is born. This is new knowledge and it is simply amazing. We are really beginning to see where the beginning is when it comes to "human nature".

I would like to add here that this talk about depression is overlooking many things that do happen to induce this condition. What they are not saying and is something I see a lot of, is that what is important is the stability of the mother in her environment. It is most likely that the mother who is in and environment that assures her "low stress" can have a lot of impact on how she passes that onto the child. And I have seen women that are living in close to poverty levels but they are managing it well and are not that stressed and may be more focused on the child and family then the living conditions. These children are lively and want to learn and engage and I do not see the signs of withdrawl and beginnings of depression.

However, I have seen children that live in better social environments, but the mother is stressed anyway, or she might be self absorbed and distant. I have noticed these children are more withdrawn inspite of the wealth around them.

And, often a child can be in an enviornment where parents are constantly fighting and they absorb that and it can transcend into these children growing up with depression or other issues that can also be "overlooked". I can raise my hand on that one.

This is what I mean about "only some of the pieces" being studied and that we have not "yet" put all these pieces together in one inclusive piece of information that I am aware of at least. We will get closer to that as we learn more about the human brain and how we truely develope as human beings.

Open Eyes

This one speaks alot to me too unhappyguy. This is where I was last year alot. I had found a new therapist and I started with him by saying, I have a lot to say and if you are not going to believe me then I can tell you right now, our sessions will be a total waste of time and money and only hurt me more.

And I talked and talked through many sessions and I am still talking.
"The suffering of PTSD because of what others have done to you"
Yes, and I have so much in my pandora's box. It is pretty bad to learn that my brain remembers things that go so far back, I am not even talking yet. Those are the most crippling flashbacks of all, and because I know now that when I have a flashback it is "really something that happened", I know these flashbacks are real as well. When I have them I can't pull out of them either, they just have to run their course. And they are the most painful ones and I am so confused and body sore for days after. And I have no idea why I have them, and I never truely know "when" they will come forward.

And sometimes I wonder if it would be easier if I didn't have others around me as I am working through all of this. I was in the middle of one of these bad flashbacks and managed to call my therapist. I could bearly talk to him, I was crying so hard, but that was what I was doing in the flashback. My husband came home and yelled at me to stop acting like a child. Because my T could hear him he asked me to hand him the phone so he could explain it to him. What would I have done had I not had my T to help me with that?

Friends? I can't tell my friends about this stuff, how are they going to understand it?

My lawyer triggers me so badly, I can't even hear his voice. When my neighbor decides to bother me, I fill up with so much rage I feel like I am going to explode. Believe me unhappyguy, I know the anger you are talking about "really well". And these people just stigmatize me as some "crazy lady". But neither of these men were there when I lost so much and had to see so much bad because of "negligence". It was "not" a random accident, it was because someone was just plain lazy and figured I would not notice it late at night while I was sleeping.

And I know all about the "self loathing" that comes with feeling like you are a failure because you react so badly too. And somehow you respond poorly? Oh I know that too.

But you know what? A lot of people struggle with that, there are alot here at PC that struggle just like you and me, and they too get "stigmatized" unfairly too. But "they are actually really nice people".
And some of them are "really smart just like you". And some have triggered right out of PC, the one place they "need" where others can support them amongst the "confusion".
Stigmatizing comes in all kinds of ways unhappyguy, and it hurts everyone that deals with it. The big question is, how much are you going to give into it? And how much do we stigmatize "ourselves" unknowingly?

Benjamine Franklin said, "Be careful what you tell others because you are also telling it to yourself".

I don't know you personally, but I know your mind some, and you are certainly a nice man and you have a "beautiful mind" and you are "certainly smart". Remember, smart people can be intimidating, often they don't even realize it, and they can very easily get "stigmatized" because of how smart they are.

People ask me where I get my courage from. I do remember one time that truely impacted me. I was probably about 4 and by that time had witnessed my brother being dragged to the shed out back many times. I can still hear him screaming in the back of my mind. And one day my older sister who just could not take it any more stood in front of the door of the shed and said, "If you have to hit someone hit me, he has had enough". And it worked, my brother didn't go to the shed that day, and it was quiet in the house that night.

My therapist said to me one day, "children are born with a clean slate for a subconscious" their subconscious minds begin filling from early childhood. We tend to think "who we are is just "who we are" and we don't realize that alot of who we are is formed from very early ages. Ofcourse we all do have "genetics" that hand us certain charectorists, but who we are has alot to do with what we experience all our lives from a very early age.

Open Eyes

There is research on that. If you're interested, I can point you toward some studies that may interest you.