[AlteredState01]

I was reading/participating in a thread recently where the discussion began focusing on the giving of advice. These posts were very interesting in that both participants had formal psych education/training (and am assuming both suffer from mental illness(es)).

As the discussion progressed, it came to a point where the question was raised as to whether one or the other were (or had begun) psychoanalyizing the "member" to which they were responding to.

This, I found, to be a very interesting subject!! I realize that we are not allowed to psychoanalyze each other on this site - only support and provide suggestions - but, how does one KNOW when that line is being crossed?

How can one discount acquired knowledge and not let it affect one's response, even when just relating to others' personal experiences/situations through that knowledge? If you have the background knowledge AND the theraputic techniques to practice a more balanced life AND IT WORKS, how do you not share all this info?

Is it just a matter of NOT telling someone you have "expert" (or rather, formal) knowledge when you give your opinion, even if you have or have not had the same experience?

I know that I have responded to an individual's post wherein I did not have the personal experience, but did have some formal psych knowledge (based on current/popular research studies, etc.) and thus commented. I did, however, have to analyze what he was saying, much like a therapist would - objectively - and give him my opinion, again, much like a therapist would - objectively. Was I wrong to do this? If I think I have relevant information to help someone here, do I not provide it?

When one responds to a post with: "I think you may be...," or "I read somewhere...," isn't one, essentially, psychoanalyzing (regardless of degree of knowledge/experience)?

If we are all here (on this site in search of help), are we not already psychoanalyzing ourselves? And, when we respond with advice, psychoanalyzing each other (albeit based on our own level of knowledge and/or intelligence)?

HOW DO I KNOW WHEN TO SHUT UP??

A big part of the reason I participate in these forums is because of the vast knowledge that can be found here! I may be a little biased here, but being psychoanalytical in nature and having great interest in pshychology as well, I tend to gravitate toward those who can provide a broader spectrum to their opionions by using their formal knowledge and expressing it. After all, I can't get everything out of my therapist and I certainly don't believe that there is no one of intelligence here that can't provide me with some "expert" knowledge. After all, people in this business can be crazy, too!

And of the differences between "schools of thought," well, that just a whole other can of worms, isn't it?

I would really like to know exactly where the line is? Anyone know?

Can I even discuss this subject??

Altered State

only you can decide when you are crossing boundaries when you reply to a post is my take on this.

not all information or advice received is taken on board by the recipient, and any advice or information received or posted may help another person who is experiencing similar problems,

so unless you use broad generalised statements every time you reply to a post, like a therapist would, rather than from personal experience, then how could it be anything other than your 2 cents worth.

You don’t need “training” to psychoanalyse a post or a person, we all do it in everyday life, true the “formally trained” allegedly have more resources/experience, but is it there own experiences or something they learned from a book,

I object to trained professionals being on this site, especially the ones who don’t let there selves be known to the general population, but they are easy to spot if you look hard enough, they normally post a question, then answer each reply with another separate question in A-typical therapist style

[SeptemberMorn]

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I realize that we are not allowed to psychoanalyze each other on this site

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It's DIAGNOSING that we are not allowed to do... even if there are some hidden professionals on this board.

[(JD)]

I am still needing the quote from guidelines that we can't analyze each other because, imo, we live life doing that. We make judgments as to what we think someone is trying to express, and we determine what we know that might help them. If that's what you call psychoanalyzing, then so be it!

No problem discussing this at all, imo. I'm sorry that you feel you might be crossing that invisible line you look for

I agree with Septembermorn that we aren't to diagnose and add that another difference is to make our posts as statements of what WE know and think, not necessarily what the experts say (unless we say that or quote them.)

That's why IMO is such a nifty 3 letters! Take care.

[Perna]

I've found that if I use "I" statements and speak from my experience, that can be helpful to another and doesn't threaten or demean or otherwise get tangled up in "their" stuff. I can't know about others and their lives other than from what they tell me and, even were I a professional, no one here, on the Internet, would be my patient with whom I'd been working in tandem for awhile.

I like hearing other's "stories" and get comfort and advice from what they have gone through or how they experience the world and what has worked for them. But I can't know if what has worked for me or what I've read or studied will work for them, I can only tell them "about" it and suggest they might like to try it as I have (which is the only way I can "know" it -- reading or studying something in not the same as experiencing it), not definitively say it will work for them.

[Flinty]

Advise is a funny thing.
I am here to listen to what others have to say & to also have my say.......

I think there is no greater power than to have someone listen to your story & to be there to support you when you need to be supported, and to be a listener of someones story & to take on board what they have experienced.

Advise comes from our own life experiences....... situations we have encounted & challenges we have faced.
but it's up to each individual person as to whether or not our advise gets used.

Flinty

[froggie2]

I found I was really uncomfortable with all the heavy jargon. I don't man to insult anyone but I wondered how the original poster felt as their post suddenly turned into what I felt was almost an argument instead of support. I feel icky even writing this. Sorry.

[Bleufacez]

I agree on members who says that there is a difference between analyzing and diagnosing. I think diagnosing should be left to professionals. However, analyzing is something that we do on a day-to-day basis. We do this when we apply for a job, wondering where and why our friend is late, why boyfriend/girlfriend hasn't return my call... etc... etc... It is not something that we can switch on/off.

Analyzing simply separating what's fact and what's ambiguous or what we know and what we don't. Note that I didn't say "what's not factual"... because the world is not black and white. Just because something isn't visible - it doesn't mean that it isn't there. Thus, ambiguous.

However, how we analyze depends on individuals and very complex. It derives from life's experiences, culture, learning styles, and many other factors. Some choose to pay attention only to certain facts and ignore others. This is why there's a saying... "People only see what they want to see." or "...believe what they want to believe".

How we respond to certain questions for advice depends on all of those factors above. Level of analyzing also different. There are some people who analyzes better than others. You may be good at analyzing a math problem while I'm good at analyzing a biology problem. A few people tried to explain football with me until their face turned blue - and for the life of me... I never understood it and I've watched it a few times.

One of the ways you can polish your analytical skills is by playing logic games or study probability and statistic. A course in Logic is mathematical.

If there are conflicting analytical answers... does it always mean that only one answer that is correct? Remember that not everything is black and white. Maybe both answers are wrong.

But on giving advice to others - I do believe that you cannot give useful advice unless you understand it. My pre-dx is bipolar disorder but the pdoc isn't 100%. One thing for sure I do suffer from severe depression with psychotic features.
(factual: clinical depression - ambiguous: bipolar?)

Just by talking to people - I can tell whether or not they "understand" what I'm going through. It certainly becomes very frustrating for both parties (complainant and listener) when the other gave "useless" advice because lack of understanding. It turns into a hot debate... "But you dont' understand..." or "But if you just do this maybe..."

I also believe that you can understand someone's dilemma without experiencing it. This is where the word "sympathize" or "empathize" comes in. For example - my grandma suffers from severe dementia. I don't have the illness (at least not yet) but if someone who has the illness complains to me... I'd understand. Similarly, when I talk to someone who understands MDD but never had it... they'd know how tough it is for me.

Whether or not you can understand a problem by learning from a book or training - it is up to the individual. For example: psychiatrists do not necesarily have to have all mental diseases to treat them nor do doctors have all illnesses to understand the level of pain a patient goes through. And from what I know... some doctors will never be exposed to certain diseases and yet somehow they'll figure out how to treat it (i.e. bacterial vs. virus).

I'm good at understanding complex concepts. I don't need to have a special training or experience in understanding certain concepts. I love law. There's a lot of analyzing and concepts in law. Many thinks that the penal code is full of jargon. Some question if situation A if added with situation B is against the law or it isn't. But... I don't need to read every law book out there to know what the law is going to say about that particular situation. I understood the law from the very first time I took a law class. Just as some understand chemistry or physics or calculus from their very first class.

In another aspect - I can look at a computer's language for a program and know what they mean or do but can never replicate it.
Or we can listen to a specific song and understand what they mean. Some may think that it's open for interpertation whereas I see it as clear as day.
For example - songs about suicide. Some I get... some I have no clue unless someone rubs my face in it, no matter how many times I've attempted suicide.

So... we cover a lot of grounds to your Qs but I don't think there's one specific answer. Everything we do and say are relative. How we deliver it is also depend upon complex factors. There isn't a uniformity in giving advice. You just do your best.

What did our parents used to say, "Do as I say not as I do"? But don't you also agree some advice need not be said - that some follow by example?

Bottom line: No matter what you do - as long as you believe that you gave good advice then that is all that matter. In reality, did you give good or bad advice? That's relative and up to the complainant/receiver to be the judge of that.

Remember that not everything is black and white and sometimes there's more than 1 correct answer. Maybe you gave great advice but leave a lot of room for improvement.

That's my answer and I'm sticking to it!
Hello? Are you still awake?

[Rapunzel]

It's a fine line. We definitely need to stay away from diagnosing each other (or asking for a dx here). But some aspects of therapy or psychoanalyzing, etc. are basically good communication skills. The first couple of classes I took about counseling were nothing more than that - how to listen well and communicate that you understand what the person is saying. That is exactly what we should be doing here.

There is a continuum of counseling skills from less intrusive (like listening) to more intrusive (for example, offering interpretations or giving directives). We should probably keep what we do here closer to the level of listening. That said, if I know something that I think will help somebody, I often share what I know, or at least offer it. When we do offer information or advice or strategies, it's best to keep it light, with no pressure, so the person knows that we understand it's their choice whether to accept it or reject it or anyplace in between.

Sometimes it's hard not to want to jump in and fix things, especially when the solution seems so obvious. But most people don't want someone to fix it or to tell them they need to change. They have a hard enough time accepting stuff like that from a therapist. Another thing that isn't always supportive is telling too much of our own story in response to someone asking for help or to be heard. What works for me (hmm, nothing actually seems to work for me at this point, but if something did) might not work for you.

But there are no hard and fast rules to clarify all of this, because it varies so much. And there is always an exception to everything.

[Bethsway]

Support is the key word here...as long as you are giving it...that is what matters!

[JustAPixie]

I did not read all the replies, so sorry if I repeat something. I think that there is no line between expert advice and personal advice on this forum, the reader can decide for himself what he wants to do with the advice, as soon as you start differentiating between the two then you have to differentiate between who are experts abd who are not. Then you sit with the problem of proof of who is and who isn't... Sometimes you get better advice from someone sharing your pain than an expert anyway... For me, here at PC, advice is advice nothing more or less... whether it's an expert or not.

[Bleufacez]

You wrote that so well... here I am writing an essay, practically, where you can sum up in a few paragraphs!

Rapunzel said:

It's a fine line.

Sometimes it's hard not to want to jump in and fix things, especially when the solution seems so obvious.

But most people don't want someone to fix it or to tell them they need to change. They have a hard enough time accepting stuff like that from a therapist.

Another thing that isn't always supportive is telling too much of our own story in response to someone asking for help or to be heard.

[radio_flyer]

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even if there are some hidden professionals on this board

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Oh my - hidden professionals and for what reason would they hide? Sneaky IMHO There are many here who are still "students" and that is cool. But a licensed shrink hiding, esp when they are giving advice. hmmmmmmm

[AlteredState01]

froggie2,

That is exactly why I started this thread. I, too, found that the topic was being overwhelmed with "egos," including mine, and was quickly veering off-topic, and as you said, began to morph into an argument instead of support.

This made me realize that I did not have a clue if and when I was crossing that line. (It's always about me....)

I'm glad you responded - icky and all! This is exactly what I wanted to know - how to best respond to any/all post(s).

I am new to blogging and I have found so much solace and comfort through these types of websites already, that I do not want to alienate myself as I have with the people I am face-to-face with.

I tend to be very expressive (I love to write) and probably a little too "flowery" or "wordy" in my responses. I am also very opinionated and blunt (hey, maybe that's why I write the way I do...trying to cover my *** by sounding smart??) - I am always upsetting someone around me by the way I express myself in real life, so why should it be any different on-line?

If I cannot find a way to belong amongst those who truly understand me, then what kind of a chance do I have being a part of the "rest of the world," who don't (or won't) understand?

I'm gonna get kicked off, aren't I? Sooner or later...


Like I said: why should it be any different on-line...?

Altered State

[AlteredState01]

Just out of curiosity, who wrote what so well?

I am just so freaking confused as to who is saying what to whom...

Help!!

[AlteredState01]

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Another thing that isn't always supportive is telling too much of our own story in response to someone asking for help or to be heard.

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Very good point. I could easily see this as a "hijacking" of a post, where someone may, through their storytelling, could unintentionally (or otherwise) divert attention to themselves and their problem, leaving the original poster out in the cold, so to speak. Yuck, now I feel bad. I hope I haven't done that...

I'm starting to feel like I ought to just read stuff...

This thread has been a real eye-opener for me!

AS

[Bethsway]

I truly don't think anyone is trying to argue at all...just give opinions on a topic...and it seems like most people agree or say that it is okay to try to help someone whether you are an expert or not...so just keep doing what you are doing alterstates...you will not get kicked off...there is no reason I can see...lol

[AlteredState01]

Bethsway,

I think I got a little carried away with my worries, there. Oh, the drama of it all...

Thanks for the vote of confidence, though!

AS

[JustAPixie]

These are the days of our PC lives!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bethsway]

lol tanya....

[kimmydawn]

Hi, Altered State,

Let me confirm as well that you're not anywhere close to being "kicked off". Unless it's a MAJOR infraction such as flooding the forums, etc., a member will receive clear warning prior to a suspension then usually several suspensions prior to a ban. There are always the extreme issues that don't fall into that, though. Let me be more clear. IF you had crossed a guideline in this thread by flaming another member, discussing detailed information from a PM, etc., your post would simply be edited and you would receive a PM...that's it. Now, after a few times of this, we might be a bit more "clear" in our expections and the potential outcome with a warning.

I want everyone to feel comfortable here with posting within the guidelines but gaining what you feel necessary with the least amount of anxiety possible.

As to advice... This is a self-help community and "These forums are for mutual support and information sharing only. (taken from the community guidelines)" If someone were to introduce themselves as a professional and clearly attempt to "treat or diagnose" another or yourself, please contact a moderator or administrator.

If you still have a concern about how you may come across in your advice and understanding, you could always start off such posts with, "This is only my personal opinion, based on what I've learned, as I'm not a professional..."

Good luck.

KD

I've seen some posts like "Am I hypo manic?" I've responded with instances when I was hypo manic & what my symtoms are. Also, if a person gives a list of symptoms that I can identify with & I tell them they may be bipolar, is that wrong? Thanks for any clarification. I don't want to be doing something wrong here.--Suzy

Suzy,

You are doing everything right. You are very supportive!