"I have a disease, not a description."

Whether someone prefers to call it an illness, disease, disorder, syndrome, or quirk (or whatever else I may have left out) is really about personal preference and that should be respected.

We all come from very different backgrounds, have experienced our mental health issues differently, are exposed culturally to different connotations of those terms, so we are bound to look at this issue through different lenses.

I think this study say a lot that HealingAndSuffering posted in the Current Events forum.

Study in Mice Raises Question: Could PTSD Involve Immune Cell Response to Stress?

I feel that 'prolonged defeat" has a lot to do with how different individuals can eventually struggle with mental illness of some kind. Of course not "all" mental illnesses, but I think that quite a few can.

I think that if a parent consistently just barks orders to a child and expects a child to perform for them constantly, it can be a beginning of that child forming "low self esteem". I do know that children do like "structure" because they feel safer if they have things that are more predictable in their daily lives. However, there also has to be a genuine effort made to also interact with a child in engaging them to express their needs and desires, verses constantly having to conform and meet up to some kind of expectation. Some children learn differently and should not feel bad if they don't always get A's in school. Learning should not be something that is constantly "demanded" but instead should be something children slowly learn to actually "enjoy" doing. We all "learn to learn" and that is actually what education is all about.

OE

Standardized descriptions are for purposes of communicating with in groups of people or within an individual. If one can not describe a thing then one can not communicate except in vagaries.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Gotta agree.

Like with Amy Winehouse her father said he did not 'Blame himself at all' for the state she was in yet;
So, he abandoned his adoring daughter for years, till she was famous (no surprise there then) But then can say without flinching 'Nothings MY fault'.

pretty much. Descriptions are reason we created language. They are still imperfect.

Is English your second language? I think you misread me. I said I find the diagnosis of PTSD, not the diagnosis of a disorder, to be very helpful.

Are you hoping to change the DSM-IV by talking about it here?

I don't know about you, but I trust my psychiatrist.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just so you know when Christian people used to tell me to be well it really set me off.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NAMI mommies? That sounds very derogatory. May I ask what you're talking about?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quirk? That totally trivializes it. My PTSD and PDNOS are definitely not quirks, they're disorders. I wish I didn't have them but I've learned to live with them .

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The kind of person who refuses to address family dynamics, claims her messy divorce had nothing to do with their kid being a mess (they are just ILL). The kind of person who will drag their kid over the new media talking about them as "next Adam Lanza" and so on.


Yes, English is my second language

I am dealing with my own stuff by talking about it and at the same time I was trying to stirr a bit of philosophical discussion, since that what this thread was about.

I have no shrink to trust. Glad you trust yours. I trust myself. It took time to learn that, but it's totally worth it. And you know what? If I went to shrink in my country, they would call it Post-traumatic stress, sans disorder part. So maybe I do trust my potential shrink too.

You can call it disorder. I call my issues, including my bipolar a "quirk". People call it many different names (if you are interested read some of the discussions on Icarus project, interesting **** there). Everybody lives.

Venus, you seem rather dogmatic in your approach to mental health.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dogmatic? Me?

If I am then, you are too, eh.

If anything, I have quite non-traditional approach to the issue.

"The kind of person who refuses to address family dynamics, claims her messy divorce had nothing to do with their kid being a mess (they are just ILL). The kind of person who will drag their kid over the new media talking about them as "next Adam Lanza" and so on." quote Venus

Reminds me of "blame the victim" mentality. Yes, I have met parents like that, too many of them actually.

Yes, your right except the "misrepresentation" came from my not completely reading Gabor Maté who argues our society as a whole has a traumatizing effect. From Wikipedia:

"He has also spoken about how the rise in bullying, ADHD and other mental disorders in American children are the result of current societal conditions e.g. a disconnected society and "the loss of nurturing, non-stressed parenting."[10] That is, we live in a society where for the first time in history, children are spending most of their time away from nurturing adults. He asserts that nurturing adults are necessary for healthy brain development.[10]"

I do not buy his argument complete because when faced with vast changes in environment humans adapt although it isn't overnight. It is possible our best survival skill. I do think the neurobiological connection he has been researching is important to understanding all MI, however. For that I wouldn't dismiss his research as "insulting" at all. It just says we are holistic beings. What seems more important to me to me is being able to differentiate developmental differences between trauma affected people and MI without major childhood trauma.

Trauma and PTSD seems like the best place to look at these kind of connections because actual event(s) can be identified. There are so many other related correlations that have been made that I couldn't even begin to go into them. This link that I posted earlier talks specifically about neurobiological changes in relation to PTSD. It is really focusing on treatment but there are som paragraphs that discuss it.

http://beyondmeds.com/2013/12/17/the...ma-changes-us/

Back to language and the topic...

I find it fascinating that much of our language can be broken down and really plays a role in our culture. I think it is often subconscious. A non MI related example is "accountability" vs "responsibility" in corp and politics. I heard this in podcast talk years ago and have tried to find it a couple times unsuccessfully. I think she was a linguist or historian or both. Anyway... "Responsibility" used to be used a lot when a mistake was made but it has now shifted to "accountability" at the same time public figures address mistakes. "Accountability" or "account" is used in mathematics to do things like balance books and is less personal then "responsibility" which is part "response" and we think of as "taking care" for the result of the mistake. "Accountability" removes personal responsibility from the person(s) and places it on the non human corporation or government machine. This shift is not really working long term. It's starting to piss people off.

So people here (including me) have already broken down dis-"order" but not did-"ease" as much. When I do that I start to back off my original opinion because aren't most MI about a loss of "ease" or "comfort"? I throw that out there as food for thought because I don't know for sure.

I like Venus's thoughts about PTSD being PTS. Circling back... The neurobiological child development or adult changes seems more like adaptation which we have not quite learned how to work with. I don't necessarily see this as "wrong". When somebody "relives" a trauma and I have been around someone working through this, it eventually seems to have a healing effect. "Eventually" being the key word because the healing nature of the "event" is not immediately clear . I qualify this by saying I have only witness this in one person and recall reading about this (or the failure of) in books. Sophie's choice comes to mind as failure but Sybil comes across as success (if you read her version which I haven't.)

The causal connection shown in the study between MI and trauma... It suggests that dealing with the trauma as both a neurobiological cause and root cause is key in understanding the MI which is also a result. To your point autism does seem like something that is probably naturally occurring and a result of trauma or events. That would make the whole "bucket" problematic.

Long posts is something I hate and can't seem to avoid. Because it is text? Something OE and I seem to have in common. except she can't seem to avoid connecting personal significance and I can't seem to avoid connecting cultural significance. :enlightenment:

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Back to language and the topic...

I find it fascinating that much of our language can be broken down and really plays a role in our culture. I think it is often subconscious. A non MI related example is "accountability" vs "responsibility" in corp and politics. I heard this in podcast talk years ago and have tried to find it a couple times unsuccessfully. I think she was a linguist or historian or both. Anyway... "Responsibility" used to be used a lot when a mistake was made but it has now shifted to "accountability" at the same time public figures address mistakes. "Accountability" or "account" is used in mathematics to do things like balance books and is less personal then "responsibility" which is part "response" and we think of as "taking care" for the result of the mistake. "Accountability" removes personal responsibility from the person(s) and places it on the non human corporation or government machine. This shift is not really working long term. It's starting to piss people off.

So people here (including me) have already broken down dis-"order" but not did-"ease" as much. When I do that I start to back off my original opinion because aren't most MI about a loss of "ease" or "comfort"? I throw that out there as food for thought because I don't know for sure.

I like Venus's thoughts about PTSD being PTS. Circling back to previous post... The neurobiological child development or adult changes seems more like adaptation which we have not quite learned how to work with. I don't necessarily see this as "wrong". When somebody "relives" a trauma and I have been around someone working through this, it eventually seems to have a healing effect. "Eventually" being the key word because the healing nature of the "event" is not immediately clear . I qualify this by saying I have only witness this in one person and recall reading about this (or the failure of) in books. Sophie's choice comes to mind as failure but Sybil comes across as success (if you read her version which I haven't.)

The causal connection shown in the study between MI and trauma... It suggests that dealing with the trauma as both a neurobiological cause and root cause is key in understanding the MI which is also a result. To your point autism does seem like something that is probably naturally occurring and a result of trauma or events. That would make the whole "bucket" problematic.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

"Something OE and I seem to have in common. except she can't seem to avoid connecting personal significance and I can't seem to avoid connecting cultural significance. :enlightenment:" quote Michanne

You remind me of the people that tell me it is ok to put horses in together in one paddock, after all they are "herd" animals. Yet, I am someone who learned "first hand" that when horses are put in together, they stress each other, have separation anxiety, and they tend to practice pecking order challenges that can result in a horse suffering from a broken leg, something I did experience "traumatically" with my horse the I had as a teenager and had to put him down. I have also warned others about that to no avail only to see other people experience the same kind of loss or significant injury.

But you continue to tell me that just because it happened to me, well, that doesn't mean anything, that it doesn't happen, therefore basically totally dismissing what I have learned through not only first hand experience, but by also seeing it happen to others as well.

The problem with me is that when I remember that, it is not just something I recall like a simple math problem for example, instead the entire emotional experience comes into the present for me (which I hate about what I have), and if that keeps getting "dismissed" or I am told I simply do not have the facts right, I don't fair well. One of the problems that has happened to me too much in my life as well, is that because I have already experienced/learned something that I know can have a bad result, I try to "enlighten" others (I would like to see others not suffer the way I did, at least my trauma can possibly lead to someone else avoiding the same trauma). Unfortunately, I find my gained wisdom and insight the "curse of Cassandra", where one has to gift to fore see, while the curse is that no one believes her, so she has to watch the sad result happen even though she sounded the alarm.

When people do not understand PTSD, it will be obvious because they are dismissive and continue badgering. When someone has "enlightened" themselves about PTSD, they will see the red flags and validate the person who struggles and back off. This has been something my husband who himself suffers from ADHD has had to meet with my therapist a few times to learn about PTSD (ugh, he can be brutally intrusive). People with ADHD and Asperger's have similar intrusive behavior patterns.

What worries me is not you or my husband, but how the opposing attorney will do that to me to try to rattle me on the witness stand, that's where I don't want to have a bad PTSD reaction or go into a flashback as I already did that in a deposition and people in general do "not" understand that.

OE

I just find it hard to believe that disorders such as schizophrenia, bipolar, autism, ADHD, and mental retardation have much to do with trauma. I think your first post said most mental disorders were the result of trauma, that's what I was talking about...

Now, dissociative disorders, PTSD, and personality disorders are mostly the result of trauma. But there are other factors as well.

Depression, anxiety, substance abuse, and behavioral disorders can go either way iirc...

So I'd have to disagree with the initial statement that trauma causes almost all mental disorders...

So case in point. There was >zero< criticism in that statement yet you took it that way and you made a whole lot of assumptions out of it. A whole lot. I wasn't even making a connection to PTSD. I was making a connection between your style and my style. That is all.

In fact if you want to get into experience versus expert opinion such as your horse example, I love this talk:

http://new.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_c...tes_dirty_jobs

The fact that you continually compare me and your husband is particularly bizarre and disturbing. Your doing it on very little information much of which is based on assumption about me. So you are basically comparing somebody you theoretically know better than anyone else in the world to a virtual person. Literally virtual (is that a paradox?) He should be more complex than that. I would appreciate it if you keep that between you and non virtual people like your T. It's creepy.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes and that is what I addressed here:

"Yes, your right except the "misrepresentation" came from my not completely reading Gabor Maté who argues our society as a whole has a traumatizing effect. From Wikipedia:

"He has also spoken about how the rise in bullying, ADHD and other mental disorders in American children are the result of current societal conditions e.g. a disconnected society and "the loss of nurturing, non-stressed parenting." That is, we live in a society where for the first time in history, children are spending most of their time away from nurturing adults. He asserts that nurturing adults are necessary for healthy brain development."

I do not buy his argument complete because when faced with vast changes in environment humans adapt although it isn't overnight."

His point is we all face trauma. My point which is rethinking "most MI" is that we adapt and therefore not everybody is affected by trauma. The original quote came out of his work.

I then go on...

"It is possible our best survival skill. I do think the neurobiological connection he has been researching is important to understanding all MI, however. For that I wouldn't dismiss his research as "insulting" at all. It just says we are holistic beings. What seems more important to me to me is being able to differentiate developmental differences between trauma affected people and MI without major childhood trauma.

Trauma and PTSD seems like the best place to look at these kind of connections because actual event(s) can be identified. There are so many other related correlations that have been made that I couldn't even begin to go into them. This link that I posted earlier talks specifically about neurobiological changes in relation to PTSD. It is really focusing on treatment but there are som paragraphs that discuss it."

Actually this should say "For that I wouldn't dismiss his research as "insulting" in entirety. Not "at all".

Then
"The causal connection shown in the study between MI and trauma... It suggests that dealing with the trauma as both a neurobiological cause and root cause is key in understanding the MI which is also a result. >To your point< autism does seem like something that is probably naturally occurring and a result of trauma or events. That would make the whole "bucket" problematic."

Which is effectively what you are saying here except I am using autism as an example.

"Depression, anxiety, substance abuse, and behavioral disorders can go either way iirc..."

Temple Grandin is an example of somebody without childhood trauma but there are plenty of examples where the two seem strongly related. I bet the bucket gets split someday.

Btw, ios seems to correct my phrases into new meanings. Sometimes the phrases are completely absurd but other times it seems to think it knows what I am trying to say but gets it totally wrong and I don't catch it. Bizarro.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'm too old and have no desire to switch to a research or writing career but I would love to get some of these ideas down visually. Haven't figured it out yet.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

"So case in point. There was >zero< criticism in that statement yet you took it that way and you made a whole lot of assumptions out of it." quote Michanne

No, I actually did not take it that way. I was considering the way you and I tend to struggle when we interact, you tend to keep at it, over look my personal experiences when I include that in my interactions, and dismiss what I say altogether. Someone who understands PTSD will not do that. However, I am saying that not to just isolate you, because in general it is not uncommon for people to not understand that about people who struggle with PTSD, in fact, I could have made that mistake myself "before" I learned about it and also experienced it first hand. Although, I did know someone who did struggle with it and I was the only person that person could sit and talk to. Here at PC, we have the ability to click on someone's profile and be able to see what they struggle with and take that into consideration as we interact with them.

Now, when I noticed that you were triggering me, I looked up your profile and noticed that you have Asperger's , I looked that up and read about it and how the symptoms can be similar to ADHD, but there "is" a difference between the two. When I say symptoms, I mean tail tale signs in how both tend to interact. Asperger's can be very literal, that is how my grand nephew is.

I am going to look up something I saw about a man who has Aspergers and wrote a book I saw his story on 60 minutes a while back. Be right back. Ok, this is his book

The Journal of Best Practices: A Memoir of Marriage, Asperger Syndrome, and One Man's Quest to Be a Better Husband: David Finch: 9781439189719: Amazon.com: Books

I actually can understand why you write long posts. I have tried to be patient with your need to cross examine me too. I would probably do
better at being more patient like I used to be, but the PTSD makes it very hard, it can over ride how I used to be so much better at that. I have actually improved a lot, at one point I had no tolerance at all, the PTSD would just completely take over. It got so bad I just wanted to end. Maybe that is where dis-order comes in, because I could not "just" like I used to, and I
could not seem to explain it to my family and they wanted me to get over it and "just" and tbh, they were actually mean about it too.

OE

Ok, this discussion is getting nowhere, I was just pointing out that your original posts were basically saying that almost all mental illnesses were the result of trauma... which isn't true... you seem like you keep changing your position, so there's no point in talking about it anymore...

Where the heck did you get asbergers? That is not in my profile at all. In fact as a private person there is very little there at all. At most I have identified myself along an autism spectrum on the mild side. You can't extrapolate very little from that. Think you might want to revise that and take under advisement you can't assume all that much from a forum. Assumptions = misleading.

My posts of you rarely make interpretations outside of what you write about. You really need to listen to sidestepper.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Ok, I remember, you told me yourself that you have Aspergers, because I looked it up and read about it. You did say you were on the autism/Asperger's
spectrum.

Sure and I took your criticism under advisement, corrected myself and expanded. I am not the type of person to hold on to an idea if somebody make a point that makes sense. So holding onto my original statement as my final statement is a little frustrating to me. Just saying.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk