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 avlady
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 lizardlady, Pikku Myy, Takeshi
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#2
Dec 14, 2014, 04:49 PM
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Hi Zinco: Wow... for me at least, just what you put into your Thread is a dizzying amount of material. And I suspect this barely scratches the surface of what's out there. I read a book, a while back titled: Subliminal- How Your Unconscious Mind Rules Your Behavior written by Leonard Mlodinow, Pantheon, 2012. The book summarized, & put into layman's terms, the results of studies of the brain that had been done, to date, using fMRI technology. Some of the implications are, if accurate, shocking.
One of the findings that was of particular interest to me was with regard to decision-making. We generally assume that we weigh the various components involved in making a decision & arrive at our decision based on our understanding of these various factors. However, what fMRI studies are apparently finding is that we first make a decision. Then we weight the various components, or factors, involved in order to support the decision we've already made. Imagine the implications for this within the judicial system. In my own case, I think about my own belief that I am transgender. Whether or not this is factually the case, I would naturally presume that I had looked back through my life at various things that occurred &, from this, concluded that I fit the transgender paradigm, so to speak. However, what current fMRI studies would apparently suggest is that first I decided I was transgender. Then I went back, looked over my life history, & weighted my various memories such that when totted up the totals supported the decision I had made to begin with that I am transgender. Does that make sense? Anyway, thanks for addressing this important topic. I hope to have time to read at least a few of the sources you cited. 
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| avlady, shezbut
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| shezbut
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#3
Dec 14, 2014, 05:25 PM
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It does make sense....I guess. Lol. It would seem to indicate bias unless all the variables were properly weighed and the decision could be changed. I had not heard that before.
There is something similar in science. You come up with a hypothesis and then you do everything you can think of to prove it wrong. Naturally you are biased to your pet hypothesis but you know it will have to withstand rigorous scrutiny from your peers. I wonder if this is anagolous? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman Major Depressive Disorder Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun. Recovering Alcoholic and Addict Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide. Male, 50 Fetzima 80mg Lamictal 100mg Remeron 30mg for sleep Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back |
| avlady
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#4
Dec 14, 2014, 05:32 PM
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I must have decided it made sense before I thought about whether it made sense or not. Lol
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman Major Depressive Disorder Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun. Recovering Alcoholic and Addict Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide. Male, 50 Fetzima 80mg Lamictal 100mg Remeron 30mg for sleep Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back |
| avlady
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#5
Dec 14, 2014, 06:22 PM
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diagnosis and treatment go hand in hand one supporting the other i think
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#6
Dec 14, 2014, 08:17 PM
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Yes, as I understood it, this was the point. It is biased. First, you make a decision. Then you weight the importance of the various factors so that they come out appearing to support the decision you already made. Imagine, if this is true, what this means for the justice system. What it is suggesting is that jurors in a trial first decide whether or not a defendant is guilty. Then each one weights the various pieces of evidence in order to support the decision they made to begin with.
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| shezbut
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#7
Dec 14, 2014, 09:47 PM
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Hmmmm. Why would the mind work that way? It doesn't seem advantageous to believe our own BS. Although that is often what we do. Yes that would have huge implications for criminal justice. I suspect that even though brain imaging is a very huge break through it is still a crude tool and it is probably much more complicated.
I am reading Steven Pinker, Harvard psychologist, "How the Mind Works". I am not far into it but I bet he will get to decision making. So far he has talked a lot about computational theory and information processing. He has mentioned that our brains have to rely on pre conceived notions if how the world is. Both from genetics and life experience and natural selection. The mind cannot possibly make sense of the world without concepts pre embedded. I am not sure if I have that right because I haven't even finished the first chapter. Steven Pinker is brilliant though and I look forward to reading it now. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman Major Depressive Disorder Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun. Recovering Alcoholic and Addict Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide. Male, 50 Fetzima 80mg Lamictal 100mg Remeron 30mg for sleep Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back |
| shezbut
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#8
Dec 14, 2014, 09:53 PM
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The more I think about it the more it seems to be true. Jurors probably do operate that way. It doesn't make sense to me though. We all like to think we are unbiased and open minded but really you have to work hard to be that way.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman Major Depressive Disorder Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun. Recovering Alcoholic and Addict Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide. Male, 50 Fetzima 80mg Lamictal 100mg Remeron 30mg for sleep Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back |
| shezbut
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#9
Dec 14, 2014, 10:00 PM
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BTW Skeez Jon Kabat-Zin was interviewed on 60 Minutes tonight on mindfulness. He is a pioneer in bringing it to the west. I read his books 20 years ago. Today on the west coast and silicone valley it is commonly accepted practice.
Part of me got jealous because I discovered a secret and don't want the whole world to know. How selfish is that. Small part of me but I felt it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman Major Depressive Disorder Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun. Recovering Alcoholic and Addict Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide. Male, 50 Fetzima 80mg Lamictal 100mg Remeron 30mg for sleep Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back |
| shezbut
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| shezbut
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#10
Dec 15, 2014, 12:02 PM
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I just noticed that when replying to posts that if we are talking about a pdoc I use the word him. If we are talking about a T I use the word her. The doctor is always male and the nurse is always female. This is hard wired into my brain from childhood. Obviously I wasn't born with this notion, it is something my mind adopted as a pre conceived notion a long time ago. It's a very inaccurate notion today but it is still with me I noticed. I would have to make special effort to say him/her.
I guess this is just an example of how some concepts are wired into our brain and then they are probably automatically induced before the decision is made. The mind has to have some context before a decision is made and then might start looking for things that fit into that framework after the decision is made. You have to have some concept of what a drinking glass is before you see a drinking glass and call it that. Just the visual patterns of light reflected on your retina are not enough. If you see a tall glass object with flowers in it you do not think drinking glass you think vase even though they are very similar. Not a great example. That book I am reading gives much better examples of how we have built in concepts of things before we see them otherwise we couldn't make any sense of it.
__________________
The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman Major Depressive Disorder Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun. Recovering Alcoholic and Addict Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide. Male, 50 Fetzima 80mg Lamictal 100mg Remeron 30mg for sleep Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back |
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#11
Dec 15, 2014, 12:43 PM
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The human body, the brain, the mind....are an absolute, amazing, miraculous, phenomenon of nature and creation.
However I have long believed that our perception of reality is very limited. It is filtered and biased and the mind fills in the blanks. A classic example is that everyone's field of vision has a blind spot in the middle. You don't see a black circle in your vision but it is there. Your brain fills in the blank based on all the data the visual cortex takes in. It does this very quickly and smoothly and has to constantly do it as you shift your gaze. I have always believed from my own direct experience and the experience of others that altered states give us a window into deeper reality. Whether it be from natural means like meditation, or a great adventure that requires lots of physical activity like climbing a mountain, or psychedelic drugs, or even psychotic states. Quantum physics in a very scientific way is really causing us to question the nature of reality. There is so much we do not normally perceive. I guess we should always be questioning our decisions and assumptions. They may be off base. Definitely if you are sitting on a jury you should be questioning your assumptions and pre conceived ideas.
__________________
The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman Major Depressive Disorder Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun. Recovering Alcoholic and Addict Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide. Male, 50 Fetzima 80mg Lamictal 100mg Remeron 30mg for sleep Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back |
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#12
Dec 15, 2014, 12:46 PM
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"However I have long believed that our perception of reality is very limited"
We are occluded. Mitote` |
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#13
Dec 15, 2014, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
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#14
Dec 15, 2014, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
There is a story about a meeting between two well-known contemporary Buddhist leaders. They were observed to be walking along silently side-by-side. They came to a bench & sat down to rest. Across the lawn was a very large on tree, at which they appeared to be gazing. The silence continued for some time, as they sat on the bench. After a while, one of the two smiled, turned to the other, and said: "They call it a tree..." 
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#15
Dec 15, 2014, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
The Mlodinow book I mentioned earlier also mentions that the eyes "quiver" up-&-down constantly. So, if we saw thing as the eyes actually take them in, they would also be jumping up-&-down continuously. But, of course, we don't see things that way. The brain smooths out the image so that it appears stable. |
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#16
Dec 15, 2014, 01:31 PM
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#17
Dec 15, 2014, 02:28 PM
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It's so hard to experience reality directly without identifying, naming, classifying. We evolved in a way in order to survive in the world and filters are part of if.
I think we are evolving spiritually as well. Meditation and mindfulness are part of it. I have found that when I spend a day on the river in the wild with my camera, tripod, and big lens, I am never more in the moment. When I am gazing through the lens in full frame of a bird it is total raw experience. Then I get home and download the pics to my computer and I start naming, classifying, and organizing. That is why nature photography is such a passion of mine. I am the dude on the bench gazing at the tree when in the field. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman Major Depressive Disorder Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun. Recovering Alcoholic and Addict Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide. Male, 50 Fetzima 80mg Lamictal 100mg Remeron 30mg for sleep Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back |
| Anonymous100305
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| Sometimes psychotic
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#18
Dec 15, 2014, 02:42 PM
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A moment such as this -
__________________
The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman Major Depressive Disorder Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun. Recovering Alcoholic and Addict Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide. Male, 50 Fetzima 80mg Lamictal 100mg Remeron 30mg for sleep Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back |
| brainhi, Sometimes psychotic
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#19
Dec 15, 2014, 03:20 PM
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Great capture!
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#20
Dec 15, 2014, 04:22 PM
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I personally think "hard science" in the present form in society doesn't go deep enough. Yes we know bipolar is genetic, yes we know (or are told), it's caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. But from the perspective of someone with bipolar, that's not at all helpful. We can give them coping mechanisms and that still may not be enough for some. I ask the question, "where do we go from here?" all the time. People choose to ignore it because they fail to see it's value. If we are to advance these fields we need more perspectives and need to stop scratching the surface.
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#21
Dec 19, 2014, 08:46 AM
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There are lots of diseases we don't understand very well and for which there is no cure. The study of them is still hard science. Some forms of cancer for example. Gotta start somewhere.
I know what you mean though. As a patient it doesn't seem to much like science. The question "where do we go from here?" is not being ignored at all in the area of research. Both in biology, meds, and in therapy and other non med means.
__________________
The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman Major Depressive Disorder Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun. Recovering Alcoholic and Addict Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide. Male, 50 Fetzima 80mg Lamictal 100mg Remeron 30mg for sleep Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back |
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#22
Dec 21, 2014, 11:05 AM
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@The Skeezyks
This study would seem to indicate we do weigh evidence before making decisions. Brain Uses Decision-Making Time to Create Confidence Rating | Psych Central News
__________________
The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman Major Depressive Disorder Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun. Recovering Alcoholic and Addict Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide. Male, 50 Fetzima 80mg Lamictal 100mg Remeron 30mg for sleep Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back |
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#23
Dec 22, 2014, 03:18 PM
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Wow am I in the wrong thread
 so much science! offhand though, how would you disprove the theories of genetic links. I mean, are there people who suffer with MI that don't have family and genetic links. My mom had issues, her father had stuff. I mean with the prevelance of MI today, how can we know what is genetically predetermined and what is just (pardon me) life crap we can't handle.
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#24
Dec 22, 2014, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
The thing is childhood abuse, neglect, abandonment, sexual abuse, trauma, all cause changes in brain structure and function. May even effect how genes express themselves. It is especially true in children who's brains are in crucial stages of development. But it is even true in a 22 year old combat veteran who experienced severe trauma and stress in combat. It will produce changes in the brain. The brain is very fluid and plastic. It changes all the time. Exercise, CBT, and meditation can change structure and function in a good way. It is believed antidepressants cause growth of new neurons and connections in the hippocampus. Its a very complicated picture and no easy answer. This thread was just focusing on some of the hard science going on in the area of psychiatry.
__________________
The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." -- Richard Feynman Major Depressive Disorder Anxiety Disorder with some paranoid delusions thrown in for fun. Recovering Alcoholic and Addict Possibly on low end of bi polar spectrum...trying to decide. Male, 50 Fetzima 80mg Lamictal 100mg Remeron 30mg for sleep Klonopin .5mg twice a day, cutting this back |
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#25
Dec 22, 2014, 05:28 PM
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Boy I could really get confused because I'm an airhead and a clutz
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This is an old thread. You probably should not post your reply to it, as the original poster is unlikely to see it.|
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